Defensive Front Four.

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-08-2003, 07:41 PM

From what I\'ve heard, the Saints defense ran a complex defense that required the players to think too much instead of letting their natural insticts take over.

This years defense is suppose to be much more simple. Add that in with a year\'s experience for Grant and I think it will make a big difference.

The area I\'m concerned about is linebacker.

WhoDat · 07-08-2003, 08:19 PM

This is one of our fundamental disagreements Billy. Coaching, in my opinion, is the single most important thing in the NFL. You can always find talent... it\'s the damn NFL after all. Great coaching is much more difficult... especially in a smaller market.

Those defenses got better b/c of their coaches. Just like the Rams did after they hire Smith... point is, as long as Venturi is at the helm there is a limit to how good our defense could be. Put the NFC Pro Bowlers on the field and I\'ll bet you Venturi couldn\'t make then the best D in the league.

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-08-2003, 08:25 PM

This is one of our fundamental disagreements Billy. Coaching, in my opinion, is the single most important thing in the NFL. You can always find talent... it\'s the damn NFL after all. Great coaching is much more difficult... especially in a smaller market.

Those defenses got better b/c of their coaches. Just like the Rams did after they hire Smith... point is, as long as Venturi is at the helm there is a limit to how good our defense could be. Put the NFC Pro Bowlers on the field and I\'ll bet you Venturi couldn\'t make then the best D in the league.

Let me put it like this. I would bet that Venturi could take NFC pro-bowl players and make them the #1 defense before Buddy Ryan could take a group of third string defensive players and make them the #1 defense.

You get my point?

lumm0x · 07-08-2003, 08:34 PM

Buddy Ryan took a group of journeymen vets and added 8 draft pick defenders and made them one of the best in history.......twice

what has Rick done?

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-08-2003, 08:39 PM

Your dancing LummOx. Answer the question. What\'s easier for Ryan to take a group of 3rd stringers and be #1 or Rick to make a #1 out of probowlers?

lumm0x · 07-08-2003, 08:42 PM

any d coordinator would take pro bowlers of course. I\'d bet money on Venturi, but your avoiding the point as well, Venturi has never proven he is a good coordinator at any level. Is it always bad luck in players, or does he just not get the best out of his guys.....would you take Rick Venturi in his prime or Buddy Ryan? Would you take Venturi to coach your defense or would you not?

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-08-2003, 08:52 PM

Any defense that ever finished #1 did so because of talent. I don\'t think there\'s any argueing that?

Coaching and defesive shemes play a part, but ultimately talent is the deciding factor.

Venturi has proven nothing and I would take Buddy any day of the week.

If it were as simple as hiring a great coach, there would be no need to worry about what what players you have, this is the NFL and all players have talent.

lumm0x · 07-08-2003, 09:02 PM

A good coach can make a bad defense overachieve. A bad coach can play pro bowlers out of position, scheme plays against the strengths of a player and effectively remove him from the game. He can also incorrectly tutor a player and hinder his progress.

A good player must listen to his coach and do what he is told. A bad player must listen to his coach and do what he is told. Whether the bad player makes plays or not, he is put in a position to do so by a good coach and that\'s all any coach can ask of his coordinator. The coordinator doesn\'t often get the say in personel but has to play with what he has. What he does with the players is his problem.

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-08-2003, 09:15 PM

LummOx, I swear you could could sell ice cubes to an eskimo.

I\'m not sure which side of the fence your on here. Is it better to have great players and an average coach or a great coach and average players?

Given the choice I would take the first one. I never said that coaching didn\'t play a part in the success of a defense or offense as far as that goes.

I guess what it all boils down to is who is more responsible for the success of a team, the players or the coaches.

I say players. What do you say?

lumm0x · 07-08-2003, 10:13 PM

Just to piss you off, when you say \"responsible\" I hear accountable and then I say the coach. Team success is created by unifying a concept and having individuals follow a plan. Individual success is of course a singular achievement, so I\'d say the coach is more responsible for \"team success\" as he unites the players to a common path.

07-08-2003, 07:41 PM	#31
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. From what I\'ve heard, the Saints defense ran a complex defense that required the players to think too much instead of letting their natural insticts take over. This years defense is suppose to be much more simple. Add that in with a year\'s experience for Grant and I think it will make a big difference. The area I\'m concerned about is linebacker.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-08-2003, 08:19 PM	#32
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Defensive Front Four. This is one of our fundamental disagreements Billy. Coaching, in my opinion, is the single most important thing in the NFL. You can always find talent... it\'s the damn NFL after all. Great coaching is much more difficult... especially in a smaller market. Those defenses got better b/c of their coaches. Just like the Rams did after they hire Smith... point is, as long as Venturi is at the helm there is a limit to how good our defense could be. Put the NFC Pro Bowlers on the field and I\'ll bet you Venturi couldn\'t make then the best D in the league.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

07-08-2003, 08:25 PM	#33
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. This is one of our fundamental disagreements Billy. Coaching, in my opinion, is the single most important thing in the NFL. You can always find talent... it\'s the damn NFL after all. Great coaching is much more difficult... especially in a smaller market. Those defenses got better b/c of their coaches. Just like the Rams did after they hire Smith... point is, as long as Venturi is at the helm there is a limit to how good our defense could be. Put the NFC Pro Bowlers on the field and I\'ll bet you Venturi couldn\'t make then the best D in the league. Let me put it like this. I would bet that Venturi could take NFC pro-bowl players and make them the #1 defense before Buddy Ryan could take a group of third string defensive players and make them the #1 defense. You get my point?
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-08-2003, 08:34 PM	#34
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Defensive Front Four. Buddy Ryan took a group of journeymen vets and added 8 draft pick defenders and made them one of the best in history.......twice what has Rick done?

07-08-2003, 08:39 PM	#35
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. Your dancing LummOx. Answer the question. What\'s easier for Ryan to take a group of 3rd stringers and be #1 or Rick to make a #1 out of probowlers?
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

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07-08-2003, 08:42 PM	#36
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Defensive Front Four. any d coordinator would take pro bowlers of course. I\'d bet money on Venturi, but your avoiding the point as well, Venturi has never proven he is a good coordinator at any level. Is it always bad luck in players, or does he just not get the best out of his guys.....would you take Rick Venturi in his prime or Buddy Ryan? Would you take Venturi to coach your defense or would you not?

07-08-2003, 08:52 PM	#37
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. Any defense that ever finished #1 did so because of talent. I don\'t think there\'s any argueing that? Coaching and defesive shemes play a part, but ultimately talent is the deciding factor. Venturi has proven nothing and I would take Buddy any day of the week. If it were as simple as hiring a great coach, there would be no need to worry about what what players you have, this is the NFL and all players have talent.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-08-2003, 09:02 PM	#38
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Defensive Front Four. A good coach can make a bad defense overachieve. A bad coach can play pro bowlers out of position, scheme plays against the strengths of a player and effectively remove him from the game. He can also incorrectly tutor a player and hinder his progress. A good player must listen to his coach and do what he is told. A bad player must listen to his coach and do what he is told. Whether the bad player makes plays or not, he is put in a position to do so by a good coach and that\'s all any coach can ask of his coordinator. The coordinator doesn\'t often get the say in personel but has to play with what he has. What he does with the players is his problem.

07-08-2003, 09:15 PM	#39
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. LummOx, I swear you could could sell ice cubes to an eskimo. I\'m not sure which side of the fence your on here. Is it better to have great players and an average coach or a great coach and average players? Given the choice I would take the first one. I never said that coaching didn\'t play a part in the success of a defense or offense as far as that goes. I guess what it all boils down to is who is more responsible for the success of a team, the players or the coaches. I say players. What do you say?
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-08-2003, 10:13 PM	#40
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Defensive Front Four. Just to piss you off, when you say \"responsible\" I hear accountable and then I say the coach. Team success is created by unifying a concept and having individuals follow a plan. Individual success is of course a singular achievement, so I\'d say the coach is more responsible for \"team success\" as he unites the players to a common path.