Defensive Front Four.

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-08-2003, 10:33 PM

I think everyone tends to over complicate the game of football, Give me this list of players

1. Reggie White.

2. Lawrance Taylor.

3. Ray Lewis.

4. Joe Green.

5. Randy White.

6. Deion Sanders.

7. Daryl Green.

8. Ronnie Lott.

9. Leroy Selman.

10. Dan Hampton

11. Deacon Jones

Then give me no coaches at all and I just say go get em\' boys.

I\'ll give you Tampa Bays defense and Buddy Ryan.

I like my chances.

WhoDat · 07-08-2003, 10:40 PM

Here\'s the problem with your entire argument Billy. You\'re comparing Pro Bowlers to third string players. There are certainly varying levels of talent in the NFL, but can we suffice it to say that no matter what, if you\'re starting in the NFL, you\'ve got a good amount of talent?

If that\'s the case then it is the coach\'sjob to harness that talent and squeeze it all out of a player. The bottom line is that Lumm0x is right. Buddy Ryan could make players overachieve. He could do it by teaching technique and he could do it with his scheme - making sure players were in the right place at the right time.

Venturi makes players underachieve. Don\'t believe me? Watch game tapes and see how many miss timed blitzes there were. Wrong formations and packages, coverage schemes etc. Or we can talk about players - Clemons under Zook led the team in tackles, had 13.5 sacks and 3 or 4 interceptions. What did he do under Venturi? Sammy Knight was a Pro Bowler under Zook... Venturi blamed him for a large part of the defense\'s failure. Darren Howard\'s numbers were good... but not as good as his first year under Zook. Not enough? Want to compare the Pro Bowl DEs and DTs we had under Zook to what our front four did last year?

The point is simple and you don\'t seem to get it Billy. With the exception of the top five or so players at any position in the NFL, the difference between number 6 and number 26 is NOT talent. It\'s coaching, plain and simple. B/c everyone of these guys is a great athlete. They\'re big, or fast, or strong, or a hitter, or they have great hands, a great arm, great vision... etc. Every starter in the NFL and a lot of the second stringers have the potential and ability to be a top ten player at their position. There are two things that stop them - A. their own work ethic, B. Coaching. Coaching is the MOST important factor in a team\'s success in the NFL. Period.

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-08-2003, 10:48 PM

First of all, I never said that coaches could or couldn\'t make players over or under acheive. Happens all the time.

What I am saying is that given 2 situations being:

a.) Proven Marginal Player Talent and Proven Great Coach.

b.) Poven Great Player Talent and Proven Marginal Coach.

I take A everytime.

This is a no brainer.

I promise you that players make a coach look much better that a coach making players look much better.

Can a very poor coach make a good defense bad? Absolutely.

Can a good defense make a poor coach look good? Absolutely.

lumm0x · 07-08-2003, 10:59 PM

Did you mean to select \"A\" sir?

WhoDat · 07-08-2003, 10:59 PM

Now I\'m confused... you just said you\'d take a great coach with marginal players over great players with a marginal coach \"everytime\". So then what the hell have we been debating for the last 15 posts?

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-08-2003, 11:01 PM

Excuse me fellows. I\'ll take B.

lumm0x · 07-08-2003, 11:06 PM

Also given your list you have 5 down linemen, 3 Lbers 2 CB and a saftey. Give me the Bucs D, Buddy Ryan and we each get photocopies of an offense and I\'ll take your lunch money all day long. You have no coaches, you think all players can play purely on instinct? I\'ll exploit missed coverage and you\'ll be lucky to see the ball.

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-08-2003, 11:12 PM

I just threw something up real quick, but I\'ll still take it.

You don\'t think these guys in their prime don\'t have the knowledge and experience to play as a group within a month?

I know you agree with me that talent wins over coaches. Given no extreme circumstances. But now you got WhoDat all over me.........

I bet you ask 31 current NFL coaches and they agree with me.

WhoDat · 07-08-2003, 11:29 PM

Wait, did you just say that if you ask 31 COACHES whether COACHING is more important that talent, they will all say no?!?!

Yes, I will take that bet. Right now. Wanna make it a cool grand?

WhoDat · 07-08-2003, 11:30 PM

by the way, which coach are we excluding? There are 32 teams last I checked...

07-08-2003, 10:33 PM	#41
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. I think everyone tends to over complicate the game of football, Give me this list of players 1. Reggie White. 2. Lawrance Taylor. 3. Ray Lewis. 4. Joe Green. 5. Randy White. 6. Deion Sanders. 7. Daryl Green. 8. Ronnie Lott. 9. Leroy Selman. 10. Dan Hampton 11. Deacon Jones Then give me no coaches at all and I just say go get em\' boys. I\'ll give you Tampa Bays defense and Buddy Ryan. I like my chances.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-08-2003, 10:40 PM	#42
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Defensive Front Four. Here\'s the problem with your entire argument Billy. You\'re comparing Pro Bowlers to third string players. There are certainly varying levels of talent in the NFL, but can we suffice it to say that no matter what, if you\'re starting in the NFL, you\'ve got a good amount of talent? If that\'s the case then it is the coach\'sjob to harness that talent and squeeze it all out of a player. The bottom line is that Lumm0x is right. Buddy Ryan could make players overachieve. He could do it by teaching technique and he could do it with his scheme - making sure players were in the right place at the right time. Venturi makes players underachieve. Don\'t believe me? Watch game tapes and see how many miss timed blitzes there were. Wrong formations and packages, coverage schemes etc. Or we can talk about players - Clemons under Zook led the team in tackles, had 13.5 sacks and 3 or 4 interceptions. What did he do under Venturi? Sammy Knight was a Pro Bowler under Zook... Venturi blamed him for a large part of the defense\'s failure. Darren Howard\'s numbers were good... but not as good as his first year under Zook. Not enough? Want to compare the Pro Bowl DEs and DTs we had under Zook to what our front four did last year? The point is simple and you don\'t seem to get it Billy. With the exception of the top five or so players at any position in the NFL, the difference between number 6 and number 26 is NOT talent. It\'s coaching, plain and simple. B/c everyone of these guys is a great athlete. They\'re big, or fast, or strong, or a hitter, or they have great hands, a great arm, great vision... etc. Every starter in the NFL and a lot of the second stringers have the potential and ability to be a top ten player at their position. There are two things that stop them - A. their own work ethic, B. Coaching. Coaching is the MOST important factor in a team\'s success in the NFL. Period.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

07-08-2003, 10:48 PM	#43
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. First of all, I never said that coaches could or couldn\'t make players over or under acheive. Happens all the time. What I am saying is that given 2 situations being: a.) Proven Marginal Player Talent and Proven Great Coach. b.) Poven Great Player Talent and Proven Marginal Coach. I take A everytime. This is a no brainer. I promise you that players make a coach look much better that a coach making players look much better. Can a very poor coach make a good defense bad? Absolutely. Can a good defense make a poor coach look good? Absolutely.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-08-2003, 10:59 PM	#44
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Defensive Front Four. Did you mean to select \"A\" sir?

07-08-2003, 10:59 PM	#45
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Defensive Front Four. Now I\'m confused... you just said you\'d take a great coach with marginal players over great players with a marginal coach \"everytime\". So then what the hell have we been debating for the last 15 posts?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

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07-08-2003, 11:01 PM	#46
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. Excuse me fellows. I\'ll take B.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-08-2003, 11:06 PM	#47
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Defensive Front Four. Also given your list you have 5 down linemen, 3 Lbers 2 CB and a saftey. Give me the Bucs D, Buddy Ryan and we each get photocopies of an offense and I\'ll take your lunch money all day long. You have no coaches, you think all players can play purely on instinct? I\'ll exploit missed coverage and you\'ll be lucky to see the ball.

07-08-2003, 11:12 PM	#48
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. I just threw something up real quick, but I\'ll still take it. You don\'t think these guys in their prime don\'t have the knowledge and experience to play as a group within a month? I know you agree with me that talent wins over coaches. Given no extreme circumstances. But now you got WhoDat all over me......... I bet you ask 31 current NFL coaches and they agree with me.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-08-2003, 11:29 PM	#49
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Defensive Front Four. Wait, did you just say that if you ask 31 COACHES whether COACHING is more important that talent, they will all say no?!?! Yes, I will take that bet. Right now. Wanna make it a cool grand?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

07-08-2003, 11:30 PM	#50
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Defensive Front Four. by the way, which coach are we excluding? There are 32 teams last I checked...
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631