TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-18-2008, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by 504Highlander

While the Bears took Tulane RB Matt Forte and TE Kellen Davis and Chiefs took TE Brad Cottam, the Saints opted for CB Tracy Porter in the 2nd round.

The Saints were 30th in the league in pass defense last year.

The Saints gave up 32 TDs in the air last year.

The Saints gave up 54 pass completions of 20 yards or more last year.

The Saints gave up 15 pass completions of 40 yards or more last year (tied for the league high).

On the other hand the offense finished 4th in yards and 12th in scoring last year.

I think taking a cornerback was a prudent move.

In time, I am optimistic that Porter will develop into a good NFL corner.

If his job is "Dude, cover that receiver and don't let him catch the ball." I think that Porter may actually turn out to be a good NFL corner this year.

Meanwhile the Saints have three BIG problems RIGHT NOW:

I'll take that as a IYHO.

No starting-caliber RB behind Deuce (2ACL's and a Microfracture surgery)

Hmmm. Let's examine that.

PT23 started against the Bears. He only rushed for a buck and caught a buck in passes in that start.

Reggie started against the Seahawks. Rushed for 97 with a 5.1 YPC average in that game.

Aaron Stecker started against Atlanta. Rushed for 100 yards on 20 carries.

Now while I will admit that for each this was their best performances last year, it shows that they have the capability to start for this team.

Payton doesn't run the ball with any consistency no matter who is back there. In 2006 Deuce only got 1057 yards on 243 carries. That's only 15 carries per game.

We have backs that will do the job the offense needs done.

No starting-caliber TE period.

Again please justify. The Saints two top TE caught 74 passes for 709 yards and 4 TD last year. Each of those stats were better than the coveted Jeremy Shockey. It's only one less catch than Gates (though admittedly his yards and TDs were much better)

A lot of 'junk' at CB and S ( Aged and injured vets, unproven rookies, and safeties who get lost )

And how exactly were they supposed to address that issue? There was only one premier CB in free agency. I understand the Saints made a play. He chose to go somewhere else.

The Saints signed 2 free agents and drafted a CB in the 2nd round. They also drafted a CB in the 3rd round last year. They signed a smart ballhawking safety in KK last year.

What exactly do you want them to do at the position?

Anyone else think these are urgent problems to address?

I'm sure many will. I don't.

At RB we're running 4 deep. The problem seems significant last year because the top 3 backs all got injured. PT23 showed his heart in that Chicago game, and now Coach Payton will trust the guy enough to give him some playing time. He'll spell Deuce, which will make him available deeper into the season.

Could we benefit from having an All Pro TE? Pf course. But the guys we have have certainly proved serviceable, especially Billy Miller. I'm going to trust the staff on this one, because both Johnson and Miller were free agents, and the Saints resigned both guys. If they didn't fit into the scheme, they could have simply walked away from both of them.

The secondary problems have a primary cause from the front 7. Safeties needing to be up for run support coupled with a lack of pass rush left them exposed. When you make an insurance salesman (Redmond) and two rookies (Gray and Mohr) look like Pro Bowl QBs then you have a problem up front in addition to the secondary. With a significant upgrade both at DT and MLB, the pressure will shift from our secondary to the opposing QB. The Saints secondary is going to look at lot better in 2008.

The only urgency at this point is health. Guys like McKenzie, Deuce, Grant, Vilma, and Morgan have to be healthy and ready to contribute.

In closing I can see talking about the secondary. Their performance last year was flat awful. But I really don't understand the continual pounding on the offense. This offense runs off Drew Brees. As long as dude is upright, then everything else falls into place. Last year there were changes in receivers, backs, TE, and O-line positions. Still finished 4th in yards and 12th in points. Consider the constant in all of that.

SFIAH

504Highlander · 05-19-2008, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

The Saints were 30th in the league in pass defense last year.
The Saints gave up 32 TDs in the air last year.
The Saints gave up 54 pass completions of 20 yards or more last year.
The Saints gave up 15 pass completions of 40 yards or more last year (tied for the league high).
On the other hand the offense finished 4th in yards and 12th in scoring last year.
I think taking a cornerback was a prudent move.
SFIAH

Every Saints fan knows the Saints secondary sucked big time.

Question is, how best to correct the problem?

If you do this through the Draft, you are looking at a couple of years of development.

I believe that CB should have been addressed in Free Agency, not the Draft, so as to have an immediate impact.

You are too caught up in the offensive stats, which do not equal wins.

The 07 Offense could not run the ball consistently, so they had to pass. That is why the stats were off the hook. Good offenses are not forced to go one-dimensional. The O should dictate to the D, if they are well balanced.

The O needed help too. A big bruiser RB and a bigger, blocking and catching TE, to keep opposing defenses honest.

I like PT and Stecker to come in and spell the starter, but not as every down backs.

Another TE in Free Agency and a big RB in the 2nd round of the Draft, would have been my preference. ( JMO )

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-19-2008, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by 504Highlander

Every Saints fan knows the Saints secondary sucked big time.

Question is, how best to correct the problem?

The first thing is to understand that it's a problem that didn't happen in isolation. When the secondary fails, it's because the whole defense: personnel, coaching, and scheme fails.

The Saints primary problem in th passing defense was at the point of attack: the opposing QB. The Saints significantly improved their front 7 adding Vilma, Ellis, Pressley, McCray, and possibly Morgan to the rotation. That coupled with a healthy Grant should make a significant difference at the point of attack.

If you do this through the Draft, you are looking at a couple of years of development.

Rookie corners do play. Didn't the Giants have one win the Superbowl just a few months ago? He, and the rest of the Giants' pedestrian secondary, was effective because Spagnolo's defense, from the Jim Johnson school, deals with the passing game from the point of attack.

In addition the Saints have brought in free agents into the secondary at every position for 2 straight years now.

I believe that CB should have been addressed in Free Agency, not the Draft, so as to have an immediate impact.

So what you're saying is that you are not satisfied with the FA pickups the Saints have acquired in the secondary. That KK, Gay, and yes David, are not in fact attempts to improve the secondary.

You are too caught up in the offensive stats, which do not equal wins.

No. I'm caught up in offensive stats to show that the offense functions at a level that is sufficient for championship caliber football. Your running this thread at DefCon 1 because we don't have that 5th productive running back or because we don't have Antonio Gates at TE. The offense has been effective for 2 years. There's no reason to think that it won't be effective again this year.

The 07 Offense could not run the ball consistently, so they had to pass.

The 06 offense didn't run the ball consistently. They passed. They passed themselves into the #1 scoring and yardage offense in the NFL.

I keep saying that even if Sean Payton had Adrian Peterson in the backfield, that he wouldn't run the ball consistently. We have two years of evidence of that fact.

So we need to stop talking about running the ball consistently, and talk about running the ball productively. As I have pointed out before, each of the the 4 backs that we have on staff have shown that they can be productive. rushing the football.

What I've found is that the Saints have to run the football even when it's not productive. Both Payton and Brees get frustrated and start slinging the ball all over the place.

The worst example of this behavior was the 2006 championship game. Deuce only got the ball 12 times. Even though it was an 8 man front, you still have to rush the ball.

That is why the stats were off the hook. Good offenses are not forced to go one-dimensional. The O should dictate to the D, if they are well balanced.

I'm not arguing with that assessment. What I'm arguing is that the Saints O is dictating the run/pass ratio, not the opposing defense.

Actually, I think what dictates it even more is the Saints porous defense. Generally when you're behind in the game, you tend to sling the ball around.

So probably the best way to improve the balance of the offense is to work on the defense. Guess what? That's exactly what they did in the offseason.

The O needed help too. A big bruiser RB and a bigger, blocking and catching TE, to keep opposing defenses honest.

No the offense needed a defense that didn't have the stats that I outlined at the beginning of my original post.

If you go and read that humongous Shockey thread, you'll see an analysis that JKool and I did on the offensive and defensive ranks of NFL champions. My conclusion is that teams that have both units play to a high leel are the ones that are the most successful. The Saints already have an offense as is that is championship caliber. Resources needed to be spent on the defense to get it in the ballpark.

I like PT and Stecker to come in and spell the starter, but not as every down backs.

Probably right on Stecker. I disagree strongly on PT23. He's the guy that gives a Sean Payton offense the most flexibility in his two back system. He can run between the tackles, pass protect, and catch the football. I like your assessment that he's Westbrook like.

And the Saints don't run an offense that requires an "every down back". It's an offense that needs backs that can be productive everywhere on the field.

I understand that you're making this argument as if Deuce is going to be completely unavailable. You said he should take another year off. But he's going to be available. And if he can come in and do the job of being the closer, like Marcus Allen became towards the end of his career, then he can serve that bruiser role that you're talking about.

But let the young buck suck up the rest of those carries so that Deuce can be as Drew Brees called him "The Hammer".

Another TE in Free Agency and a big RB in the 2nd round of the Draft, would have been my preference. ( JMO )

As you have stated over and over again. I've been arguing with folks here about the offense since January. I'm pleased that the front office took the same route I would have. I'm still waiting for my consulting check.

SFIAH

504Highlander · 05-19-2008, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

PT23 started against the Bears. He only rushed for a buck and caught a buck in passes in that start.
Reggie started against the Seahawks. Rushed for 97 with a 5.1 YPC average in that game.
Aaron Stecker started against Atlanta. Rushed for 100 yards on 20 carries.
Now while I will admit that for each this was their best performances last year, it shows that they have the capability to start for this team.

Payton doesn't run the ball with any consistency no matter who is back there. In 2006 Deuce only got 1057 yards on 243 carries. That's only 15 carries per game.

We have backs that will do the job the offense needs done.

Reggie is a perimeter runner. PT and Stecker are decent players. They are NOT starters. PT may turn into a Westbrook-type, which would help provide a change of pace.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

The Saints two top TE caught 74 passes for 709 yards and 4 TD last year. Each of those stats were better than the coveted Jeremy Shockey. It's only one less catch than Gates (though admittedly his yards and TDs were much better)

If they are the answer at TE, then why only sign them for one year, league minimum contracts?

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

There was only one premier CB in free agency. I understand the Saints made a play. He chose to go somewhere else.

Hall, Trufant, Samuels, Sheppard, Asomugha. And there were many second tier corners that were available, if we had wanted to make a move.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

The Saints signed 2 free agents and drafted a CB in the 2nd round. They also drafted a CB in the 3rd round last year. They signed a smart ballhawking safety in KK last year.
What exactly do you want them to do at the position?

Stop signing unwanted vets and drafting rookies. Go get some talent to start now.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

At RB we're running 4 deep. The problem seems significant last year because the top 3 backs all got injured. PT23 showed his heart in that Chicago game, and now Coach Payton will trust the guy enough to give him some playing time. He'll spell Deuce, which will make him available deeper into the season.

Could we benefit from having an All Pro TE? Pf course. But the guys we have have certainly proved serviceable, especially Billy Miller. I'm going to trust the staff on this one, because both Johnson and Miller were free agents, and the Saints resigned both guys. If they didn't fit into the scheme, they could have simply walked away from both of them.

The secondary problems have a primary cause from the front 7. Safeties needing to be up for run support coupled with a lack of pass rush left them exposed. When you make an insurance salesman (Redmond) and two rookies (Gray and Mohr) look like Pro Bowl QBs then you have a problem up front in addition to the secondary. With a significant upgrade both at DT and MLB, the pressure will shift from our secondary to the opposing QB. The Saints secondary is going to look at lot better in 2008.

The only urgency at this point is health. Guys like McKenzie, Deuce, Grant, Vilma, and Morgan have to be healthy and ready to contribute.

In closing I can see talking about the secondary. Their performance last year was flat awful. But I really don't understand the continual pounding on the offense. This offense runs off Drew Brees. As long as dude is upright, then everything else falls into place. Last year there were changes in receivers, backs, TE, and O-line positions. Still finished 4th in yards and 12th in points. Consider the constant in all of that.

SFIAH

Your optimism is wonderful. But we need healthy, starting-caliber players at RB / TE / DB, ready to play in game one versus Tampa.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-19-2008, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by 504Highlander

Reggie is a perimeter runner. PT and Stecker are decent players. They are NOT starters. PT may turn into a Westbrook-type, which would help provide a change of pace.

I agree on Stecker. And I'd like to point out that Westbrook is an every down starting back in this league. So PT23 turning into that guy wouldn't be bad at all.

If they are the answer at TE, then why only sign them for one year, league minimum contracts?

Do we know at whos option that occured? Players may want the flexibility to go for a bigger contract at the end of the season.

Hall,

Overrated loudmouth

Trufant, Samuels,

Choose to sign somewhere else

Sheppard, Asomugha.

Under contract (or franchised) with other teams. Like Shockey it would have cost a mint in players and draft picks to obtain these guys.

And there were many second tier corners that were available, if we had wanted to make a move.

Umm. Like Randal Gay? Oh yeah, the Saints signed him.

Stop signing unwanted vets and drafting rookies. Go get some talent to start now.

Let's look at some teams that have done what you wanted and see where they are now:

49ers signed Clemens. Didn't we trade up into their slot to pick Ellis?

Denver picked up Bly. I don't remember them making the playoffs. Denver has arguably the best CB tandem in the league. Didn't do them very much good.

OTOH the Giants drafted a corner. Hmmm. Won the SB.

So you think that maybe there may be more to it than just signing a high priced, overhyped, free agent? Or trading the future away for a guy that cannot make up the entire difference by himself?

Hall? Do you know what Oakland gave up for that guy? Please!

Your optimism is wonderful. But we need healthy, starting-caliber players at RB / TE / DB, ready to play in game one versus Tampa.

I admit my optimism is based on the health of injured defensive players. I certainly wouldn't want to see 53 and 58 starting in the LB slots again.

But I think it's an overreach to think that RB and TE are going to be the dealbreakers of the season. As long as the O-line does their job, Drew Brees is upright, and the defensive front 7 can finally bring some pain, then the rest of the pieces can be interchangeable with good success.

SFIAH

praglen · 05-19-2008, 10:18 AM

SaintFanIn?ATLHELL:

You absolutely right on the money! Besides, I lived in Atlanta Hell for many years and was there Before the Vick and Dog Show when we kicked their tale, altho MV ran for about 500 yards in that game.
My only caveat is that I worry about PT having to carry a big load over an entire season and we should keep in mind the Bears game was essentially meaningless, since neither team had anything to play for...

05-18-2008, 07:36 PM	#1
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,783	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints Originally Posted by 504Highlander While the Bears took Tulane RB Matt Forte and TE Kellen Davis and Chiefs took TE Brad Cottam, the Saints opted for CB Tracy Porter in the 2nd round. The Saints were 30th in the league in pass defense last year. The Saints gave up 32 TDs in the air last year. The Saints gave up 54 pass completions of 20 yards or more last year. The Saints gave up 15 pass completions of 40 yards or more last year (tied for the league high). On the other hand the offense finished 4th in yards and 12th in scoring last year. I think taking a cornerback was a prudent move. In time, I am optimistic that Porter will develop into a good NFL corner. If his job is "Dude, cover that receiver and don't let him catch the ball." I think that Porter may actually turn out to be a good NFL corner this year. Meanwhile the Saints have three BIG problems RIGHT NOW: I'll take that as a IYHO. No starting-caliber RB behind Deuce (2ACL's and a Microfracture surgery) Hmmm. Let's examine that. PT23 started against the Bears. He only rushed for a buck and caught a buck in passes in that start. Reggie started against the Seahawks. Rushed for 97 with a 5.1 YPC average in that game. Aaron Stecker started against Atlanta. Rushed for 100 yards on 20 carries. Now while I will admit that for each this was their best performances last year, it shows that they have the capability to start for this team. Payton doesn't run the ball with any consistency no matter who is back there. In 2006 Deuce only got 1057 yards on 243 carries. That's only 15 carries per game. We have backs that will do the job the offense needs done. No starting-caliber TE period. Again please justify. The Saints two top TE caught 74 passes for 709 yards and 4 TD last year. Each of those stats were better than the coveted Jeremy Shockey. It's only one less catch than Gates (though admittedly his yards and TDs were much better) A lot of 'junk' at CB and S ( Aged and injured vets, unproven rookies, and safeties who get lost ) And how exactly were they supposed to address that issue? There was only one premier CB in free agency. I understand the Saints made a play. He chose to go somewhere else. The Saints signed 2 free agents and drafted a CB in the 2nd round. They also drafted a CB in the 3rd round last year. They signed a smart ballhawking safety in KK last year. What exactly do you want them to do at the position? Anyone else think these are urgent problems to address? I'm sure many will. I don't. At RB we're running 4 deep. The problem seems significant last year because the top 3 backs all got injured. PT23 showed his heart in that Chicago game, and now Coach Payton will trust the guy enough to give him some playing time. He'll spell Deuce, which will make him available deeper into the season. Could we benefit from having an All Pro TE? Pf course. But the guys we have have certainly proved serviceable, especially Billy Miller. I'm going to trust the staff on this one, because both Johnson and Miller were free agents, and the Saints resigned both guys. If they didn't fit into the scheme, they could have simply walked away from both of them. The secondary problems have a primary cause from the front 7. Safeties needing to be up for run support coupled with a lack of pass rush left them exposed. When you make an insurance salesman (Redmond) and two rookies (Gray and Mohr) look like Pro Bowl QBs then you have a problem up front in addition to the secondary. With a significant upgrade both at DT and MLB, the pressure will shift from our secondary to the opposing QB. The Saints secondary is going to look at lot better in 2008. The only urgency at this point is health. Guys like McKenzie, Deuce, Grant, Vilma, and Morgan have to be healthy and ready to contribute. In closing I can see talking about the secondary. Their performance last year was flat awful. But I really don't understand the continual pounding on the offense. This offense runs off Drew Brees. As long as dude is upright, then everything else falls into place. Last year there were changes in receivers, backs, TE, and O-line positions. Still finished 4th in yards and 12th in points. Consider the constant in all of that. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good. Last edited by SaintFanInATLHELL; 05-18-2008 at 07:38 PM..

05-19-2008, 12:44 AM	#2
504Highlander Registered Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 47 Blog Entries: 1	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL The Saints were 30th in the league in pass defense last year. The Saints gave up 32 TDs in the air last year. The Saints gave up 54 pass completions of 20 yards or more last year. The Saints gave up 15 pass completions of 40 yards or more last year (tied for the league high). On the other hand the offense finished 4th in yards and 12th in scoring last year. I think taking a cornerback was a prudent move. SFIAH Every Saints fan knows the Saints secondary sucked big time. Question is, how best to correct the problem? If you do this through the Draft, you are looking at a couple of years of development. I believe that CB should have been addressed in Free Agency, not the Draft, so as to have an immediate impact. You are too caught up in the offensive stats, which do not equal wins. The 07 Offense could not run the ball consistently, so they had to pass. That is why the stats were off the hook. Good offenses are not forced to go one-dimensional. The O should dictate to the D, if they are well balanced. The O needed help too. A big bruiser RB and a bigger, blocking and catching TE, to keep opposing defenses honest. I like PT and Stecker to come in and spell the starter, but not as every down backs. Another TE in Free Agency and a big RB in the 2nd round of the Draft, would have been my preference. ( JMO )
	If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

05-19-2008, 06:26 AM	#3
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,783	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints Originally Posted by 504Highlander Every Saints fan knows the Saints secondary sucked big time. Question is, how best to correct the problem? The first thing is to understand that it's a problem that didn't happen in isolation. When the secondary fails, it's because the whole defense: personnel, coaching, and scheme fails. The Saints primary problem in th passing defense was at the point of attack: the opposing QB. The Saints significantly improved their front 7 adding Vilma, Ellis, Pressley, McCray, and possibly Morgan to the rotation. That coupled with a healthy Grant should make a significant difference at the point of attack. If you do this through the Draft, you are looking at a couple of years of development. Rookie corners do play. Didn't the Giants have one win the Superbowl just a few months ago? He, and the rest of the Giants' pedestrian secondary, was effective because Spagnolo's defense, from the Jim Johnson school, deals with the passing game from the point of attack. In addition the Saints have brought in free agents into the secondary at every position for 2 straight years now. I believe that CB should have been addressed in Free Agency, not the Draft, so as to have an immediate impact. So what you're saying is that you are not satisfied with the FA pickups the Saints have acquired in the secondary. That KK, Gay, and yes David, are not in fact attempts to improve the secondary. You are too caught up in the offensive stats, which do not equal wins. No. I'm caught up in offensive stats to show that the offense functions at a level that is sufficient for championship caliber football. Your running this thread at DefCon 1 because we don't have that 5th productive running back or because we don't have Antonio Gates at TE. The offense has been effective for 2 years. There's no reason to think that it won't be effective again this year. The 07 Offense could not run the ball consistently, so they had to pass. The 06 offense didn't run the ball consistently. They passed. They passed themselves into the #1 scoring and yardage offense in the NFL. I keep saying that even if Sean Payton had Adrian Peterson in the backfield, that he wouldn't run the ball consistently. We have two years of evidence of that fact. So we need to stop talking about running the ball consistently, and talk about running the ball productively. As I have pointed out before, each of the the 4 backs that we have on staff have shown that they can be productive. rushing the football. What I've found is that the Saints have to run the football even when it's not productive. Both Payton and Brees get frustrated and start slinging the ball all over the place. The worst example of this behavior was the 2006 championship game. Deuce only got the ball 12 times. Even though it was an 8 man front, you still have to rush the ball. That is why the stats were off the hook. Good offenses are not forced to go one-dimensional. The O should dictate to the D, if they are well balanced. I'm not arguing with that assessment. What I'm arguing is that the Saints O is dictating the run/pass ratio, not the opposing defense. Actually, I think what dictates it even more is the Saints porous defense. Generally when you're behind in the game, you tend to sling the ball around. So probably the best way to improve the balance of the offense is to work on the defense. Guess what? That's exactly what they did in the offseason. The O needed help too. A big bruiser RB and a bigger, blocking and catching TE, to keep opposing defenses honest. No the offense needed a defense that didn't have the stats that I outlined at the beginning of my original post. If you go and read that humongous Shockey thread, you'll see an analysis that JKool and I did on the offensive and defensive ranks of NFL champions. My conclusion is that teams that have both units play to a high leel are the ones that are the most successful. The Saints already have an offense as is that is championship caliber. Resources needed to be spent on the defense to get it in the ballpark. I like PT and Stecker to come in and spell the starter, but not as every down backs. Probably right on Stecker. I disagree strongly on PT23. He's the guy that gives a Sean Payton offense the most flexibility in his two back system. He can run between the tackles, pass protect, and catch the football. I like your assessment that he's Westbrook like. And the Saints don't run an offense that requires an "every down back". It's an offense that needs backs that can be productive everywhere on the field. I understand that you're making this argument as if Deuce is going to be completely unavailable. You said he should take another year off. But he's going to be available. And if he can come in and do the job of being the closer, like Marcus Allen became towards the end of his career, then he can serve that bruiser role that you're talking about. But let the young buck suck up the rest of those carries so that Deuce can be as Drew Brees called him "The Hammer". Another TE in Free Agency and a big RB in the 2nd round of the Draft, would have been my preference. ( JMO ) As you have stated over and over again. I've been arguing with folks here about the offense since January. I'm pleased that the front office took the same route I would have. I'm still waiting for my consulting check. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

05-19-2008, 01:37 AM	#4
504Highlander Registered Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 47 Blog Entries: 1	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL PT23 started against the Bears. He only rushed for a buck and caught a buck in passes in that start. Reggie started against the Seahawks. Rushed for 97 with a 5.1 YPC average in that game. Aaron Stecker started against Atlanta. Rushed for 100 yards on 20 carries. Now while I will admit that for each this was their best performances last year, it shows that they have the capability to start for this team. Payton doesn't run the ball with any consistency no matter who is back there. In 2006 Deuce only got 1057 yards on 243 carries. That's only 15 carries per game. We have backs that will do the job the offense needs done. Reggie is a perimeter runner. PT and Stecker are decent players. They are NOT starters. PT may turn into a Westbrook-type, which would help provide a change of pace. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL The Saints two top TE caught 74 passes for 709 yards and 4 TD last year. Each of those stats were better than the coveted Jeremy Shockey. It's only one less catch than Gates (though admittedly his yards and TDs were much better) If they are the answer at TE, then why only sign them for one year, league minimum contracts? Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL There was only one premier CB in free agency. I understand the Saints made a play. He chose to go somewhere else. Hall, Trufant, Samuels, Sheppard, Asomugha. And there were many second tier corners that were available, if we had wanted to make a move. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL The Saints signed 2 free agents and drafted a CB in the 2nd round. They also drafted a CB in the 3rd round last year. They signed a smart ballhawking safety in KK last year. What exactly do you want them to do at the position? Stop signing unwanted vets and drafting rookies. Go get some talent to start now. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL At RB we're running 4 deep. The problem seems significant last year because the top 3 backs all got injured. PT23 showed his heart in that Chicago game, and now Coach Payton will trust the guy enough to give him some playing time. He'll spell Deuce, which will make him available deeper into the season. Could we benefit from having an All Pro TE? Pf course. But the guys we have have certainly proved serviceable, especially Billy Miller. I'm going to trust the staff on this one, because both Johnson and Miller were free agents, and the Saints resigned both guys. If they didn't fit into the scheme, they could have simply walked away from both of them. The secondary problems have a primary cause from the front 7. Safeties needing to be up for run support coupled with a lack of pass rush left them exposed. When you make an insurance salesman (Redmond) and two rookies (Gray and Mohr) look like Pro Bowl QBs then you have a problem up front in addition to the secondary. With a significant upgrade both at DT and MLB, the pressure will shift from our secondary to the opposing QB. The Saints secondary is going to look at lot better in 2008. The only urgency at this point is health. Guys like McKenzie, Deuce, Grant, Vilma, and Morgan have to be healthy and ready to contribute. In closing I can see talking about the secondary. Their performance last year was flat awful. But I really don't understand the continual pounding on the offense. This offense runs off Drew Brees. As long as dude is upright, then everything else falls into place. Last year there were changes in receivers, backs, TE, and O-line positions. Still finished 4th in yards and 12th in points. Consider the constant in all of that. SFIAH Your optimism is wonderful. But we need healthy, starting-caliber players at RB / TE / DB, ready to play in game one versus Tampa.
	If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

05-19-2008, 06:47 AM	#5
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,783	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints Originally Posted by 504Highlander Reggie is a perimeter runner. PT and Stecker are decent players. They are NOT starters. PT may turn into a Westbrook-type, which would help provide a change of pace. I agree on Stecker. And I'd like to point out that Westbrook is an every down starting back in this league. So PT23 turning into that guy wouldn't be bad at all. If they are the answer at TE, then why only sign them for one year, league minimum contracts? Do we know at whos option that occured? Players may want the flexibility to go for a bigger contract at the end of the season. Hall, Overrated loudmouth Trufant, Samuels, Choose to sign somewhere else Sheppard, Asomugha. Under contract (or franchised) with other teams. Like Shockey it would have cost a mint in players and draft picks to obtain these guys. And there were many second tier corners that were available, if we had wanted to make a move. Umm. Like Randal Gay? Oh yeah, the Saints signed him. Stop signing unwanted vets and drafting rookies. Go get some talent to start now. Let's look at some teams that have done what you wanted and see where they are now: 49ers signed Clemens. Didn't we trade up into their slot to pick Ellis? Denver picked up Bly. I don't remember them making the playoffs. Denver has arguably the best CB tandem in the league. Didn't do them very much good. OTOH the Giants drafted a corner. Hmmm. Won the SB. So you think that maybe there may be more to it than just signing a high priced, overhyped, free agent? Or trading the future away for a guy that cannot make up the entire difference by himself? Hall? Do you know what Oakland gave up for that guy? Please! Your optimism is wonderful. But we need healthy, starting-caliber players at RB / TE / DB, ready to play in game one versus Tampa. I admit my optimism is based on the health of injured defensive players. I certainly wouldn't want to see 53 and 58 starting in the LB slots again. But I think it's an overreach to think that RB and TE are going to be the dealbreakers of the season. As long as the O-line does their job, Drew Brees is upright, and the defensive front 7 can finally bring some pain, then the rest of the pieces can be interchangeable with good success. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good. Last edited by SaintFanInATLHELL; 05-19-2008 at 06:49 AM..

05-19-2008, 10:18 AM	#6
praglen Rookie Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5	Re: TE RB and DB Still an issue for Saints SaintFanIn?ATLHELL: You absolutely right on the money! Besides, I lived in Atlanta Hell for many years and was there Before the Vick and Dog Show when we kicked their tale, altho MV ran for about 500 yards in that game. My only caveat is that I worry about PT having to carry a big load over an entire season and we should keep in mind the Bears game was essentially meaningless, since neither team had anything to play for...
praglen Rookie Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5	Last edited by hagan714; 05-19-2008 at 03:12 PM..