The Brown/Bushrod debate

SaintPauly · 02-10-2010, 05:03 PM

I will leave this decision to the experts. Whatever Loomis, and Payton decide is fine by me. The won us the superbowl! That's a pretty good resume for me.

papz · 02-10-2010, 06:58 PM

Bushrod can be as good as or better than our 28 year old All Pro LT? I'd laugh but that's not even remotely funny. Just because we won a Superbowl with Bushrod, that doesn't mean he's a better player than Brown.

Offensive tackle rankings: Young anchors awash in potential - RealScouts - NFL - Sporting News

Talk about being underrated by some Saints fans. All the non-sense about him being false start/holding prone is also a joke... search through the forums. Somewhere in here there's statistical rankings for that and the rest of our offensive line prior to the season.

st thomas · 02-10-2010, 07:05 PM

brown knows his game has to pick up or he'll ride the pine, but i don't see keeping both, bushrod's a free agent i think.

Danno · 02-10-2010, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by papz

Bushrod can be as good as or better than our 28 year old All Pro LT? I'd laugh but that's not even remotely funny. Just because we won a Superbowl with Bushrod, that doesn't mean he's a better player than Brown.

Offensive tackle rankings: Young anchors awash in potential - RealScouts - NFL - Sporting News

Talk about being underrated by some Saints fans. All the non-sense about him being false start/holding prone is also a joke... search through the forums. Somewhere in here there's statistical rankings for that and the rest of our offensive line prior to the season.

Yep, he finished in the top 10 for all LT's and his penalties were no worse than the other guys on the list. In fact, his performance blew away the "pro-bowlers" selected.

I'll try to find that info...

Here's one part of it, 2008 stats...

Sacks given up by LT's league wide...

1. Ryan Clady, Denver, 0.5 sack
2. Michael Roos, Tennessee, 1 sack PRO BOWLER
3-T. Tony Ugoh, Indianapolis, 2 sacks* (Started 11)
3-T. Tra Thomas, Philadelphia, 2 sacks
3-T. Jared Gaither, Baltimore, 2 sacks
7. Jake Long, Miami, 2.5 sacks

8-T. Marcus McNeill, San Diego, 3 sacks* (13 games)
8-T. Chris Samuels, Washington, 3 sacks* (12 games)
8-T. Jordan Gross, Carolina, 3 sacks* (Missed 1 game) PRO BOWLER
8-T. Jammal Brown, New Orleans, 3 sacks* (Missed 1 game)
8-T. Todd Weiner, Atlanta, 3 sacks* (Started 10 games and appeared in 15)

13-T. Joe Thomas, Cleveland, 3.5 sacks PRO BOWLER
13-T. Walter Jones, Seattle, 3.5 sacks* (12 games) PRO BOWLER
15-T. D'Brickashaw Ferguson, NY Jets, 4 sacks
15-T. Bryant McKinnie, Minnesota, 4 sacks* (11 games)
15-T. Max Starks, Pittsburgh, 4 sacks* (10 starts)
18. Brandon Albert, Kansas City, 4.5 sacks* (Missed 1 game)
19. Levi Jones, Cincinnati, 5.5 sacks* (10 games)
20. Mike Gandy, Arizona, 6.25 sacks
21-T. Chad Clifton, Green Bay, 6.5 sacks* (missed 1 game)
21-T. David Diehl, NY Giants, 6.5 sacks
23. Flozell Adams, Dallas, 7.25 PRO BOWLER
24-T. Khalif Barnes, Jacksonville, 7.5 sacks
24-T. Matt Light, New England, 7.5 sacks
24-T. Kwame Harris, 7.5 sacks* (Started 11, appeared in 13)
27. Donald Penn, Tampa Bay, 8 sacks
28. Joe Staley, San Francisco, 8.5 sacks
29. Jeff Backus, Detroit, 9.25 sacks
30. John St. Clair, Chicago, 9.75 sacks
T-31. Duane Brown, Houston, 11.5 sacks
T-31. Jason Peters, Buffalo, 11.5 sacks* PRO BOWLER (13 games)

And here were his penalties for 2008...

Tackle Jammal Brown: 3.0 sacks, 7 holding calls, 2 false starts.

st thomas · 02-10-2010, 07:29 PM

awesome breakdown danno

papz · 02-10-2010, 07:44 PM

There was also a comparison on the amount penalties each of our offensive lineman committed if I recall correctly... and the discrepancy btw each of them was minuscule. In fact, Brown might not even been the most penalized out of the bunch. The numbers make you wonder how anyone can say his play was on the decline... decline from what?

So as far as the Brown/Bushrod debate, the only thing to debate is whether to keep both of them. And with both Brown and Bushrod being restricted free agent(unless a new CBA is agreed upon), you keep both. It's a no brainer.

MatthewT · 02-10-2010, 09:47 PM

Gotta keep both guys around. Bushrod is getting closer, but he is not there yet. Brown is a legitimate all pro, going to be nice to have him back next year. Saints did a great job covering up the weakness at LT, they won't get away with that forever.

SaintPauly · 02-10-2010, 10:00 PM

I'm curious what happens to ufa's, and rfa's, in 2011, if a new CBA has not been agreed upon. If there's a lock out, what happens to these players status then?

hitta · 02-10-2010, 10:12 PM

Whether or not Bushrod or Brown is actually better right now is irrelevant in the discussion. Payton and Loomis have already tried trading Brown once before. The reason is the goal is to field the best football team, not have the best LT. I thought Bushrod did a heck of a job in his first year, and he is going to improve. Brown is better, but is his talent at so much of a higher level over Bushrod that it's worth keeping him and missing out on the chance to shore up our defense with some talent(Julius Peppers maybe or a 1st round draft pick). With the way our offense moves the ball, and with the way the offensive line held up without Brown, I'd say that O-line is the least of our worries.

lynwood · 02-10-2010, 10:18 PM

Brown might have some low penalties compared to others but they came as drive killers. When we needed to keep a drive alive it would be a false start or a hold.

Anyway I say bring them both in and let them compete. Best guy wins. If you can keep both great!

02-10-2010, 05:03 PM	#21
SaintPauly Senior Citizen Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Gulfport, MS Posts: 3,180 Blog Entries: 1	Re: The Brown/Bushrod debate I will leave this decision to the experts. Whatever Loomis, and Payton decide is fine by me. The won us the superbowl! That's a pretty good resume for me.

02-10-2010, 06:58 PM	#22
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,754	Re: The Brown/Bushrod debate Bushrod can be as good as or better than our 28 year old All Pro LT? I'd laugh but that's not even remotely funny. Just because we won a Superbowl with Bushrod, that doesn't mean he's a better player than Brown. Offensive tackle rankings: Young anchors awash in potential - RealScouts - NFL - Sporting News Talk about being underrated by some Saints fans. All the non-sense about him being false start/holding prone is also a joke... search through the forums. Somewhere in here there's statistical rankings for that and the rest of our offensive line prior to the season.
	Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege. All little common sense goes a long way.

02-10-2010, 07:05 PM	#23
st thomas Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: lafayette Posts: 7,753	Re: The Brown/Bushrod debate brown knows his game has to pick up or he'll ride the pine, but i don't see keeping both, bushrod's a free agent i think.

02-10-2010, 07:25 PM	#24
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,723	Re: The Brown/Bushrod debate Originally Posted by papz Bushrod can be as good as or better than our 28 year old All Pro LT? I'd laugh but that's not even remotely funny. Just because we won a Superbowl with Bushrod, that doesn't mean he's a better player than Brown. Offensive tackle rankings: Young anchors awash in potential - RealScouts - NFL - Sporting News Talk about being underrated by some Saints fans. All the non-sense about him being false start/holding prone is also a joke... search through the forums. Somewhere in here there's statistical rankings for that and the rest of our offensive line prior to the season. Yep, he finished in the top 10 for all LT's and his penalties were no worse than the other guys on the list. In fact, his performance blew away the "pro-bowlers" selected. I'll try to find that info... Here's one part of it, 2008 stats... Sacks given up by LT's league wide... 1. Ryan Clady, Denver, 0.5 sack 2. Michael Roos, Tennessee, 1 sack PRO BOWLER 3-T. Tony Ugoh, Indianapolis, 2 sacks* (Started 11) 3-T. Tra Thomas, Philadelphia, 2 sacks 3-T. Jared Gaither, Baltimore, 2 sacks 7. Jake Long, Miami, 2.5 sacks 8-T. Marcus McNeill, San Diego, 3 sacks* (13 games) 8-T. Chris Samuels, Washington, 3 sacks* (12 games) 8-T. Jordan Gross, Carolina, 3 sacks* (Missed 1 game) PRO BOWLER 8-T. Jammal Brown, New Orleans, 3 sacks* (Missed 1 game) 8-T. Todd Weiner, Atlanta, 3 sacks* (Started 10 games and appeared in 15) 13-T. Joe Thomas, Cleveland, 3.5 sacks PRO BOWLER 13-T. Walter Jones, Seattle, 3.5 sacks* (12 games) PRO BOWLER 15-T. D'Brickashaw Ferguson, NY Jets, 4 sacks 15-T. Bryant McKinnie, Minnesota, 4 sacks* (11 games) 15-T. Max Starks, Pittsburgh, 4 sacks* (10 starts) 18. Brandon Albert, Kansas City, 4.5 sacks* (Missed 1 game) 19. Levi Jones, Cincinnati, 5.5 sacks* (10 games) 20. Mike Gandy, Arizona, 6.25 sacks 21-T. Chad Clifton, Green Bay, 6.5 sacks* (missed 1 game) 21-T. David Diehl, NY Giants, 6.5 sacks 23. Flozell Adams, Dallas, 7.25 PRO BOWLER 24-T. Khalif Barnes, Jacksonville, 7.5 sacks 24-T. Matt Light, New England, 7.5 sacks 24-T. Kwame Harris, 7.5 sacks* (Started 11, appeared in 13) 27. Donald Penn, Tampa Bay, 8 sacks 28. Joe Staley, San Francisco, 8.5 sacks 29. Jeff Backus, Detroit, 9.25 sacks 30. John St. Clair, Chicago, 9.75 sacks T-31. Duane Brown, Houston, 11.5 sacks T-31. Jason Peters, Buffalo, 11.5 sacks* PRO BOWLER (13 games) And here were his penalties for 2008... Tackle Jammal Brown: 3.0 sacks, 7 holding calls, 2 false starts.
	Last edited by Danno; 02-10-2010 at 07:28 PM..

02-10-2010, 07:29 PM	#25
st thomas Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: lafayette Posts: 7,753	Re: The Brown/Bushrod debate awesome breakdown danno

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02-10-2010, 07:44 PM	#26
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,754	Re: The Brown/Bushrod debate There was also a comparison on the amount penalties each of our offensive lineman committed if I recall correctly... and the discrepancy btw each of them was minuscule. In fact, Brown might not even been the most penalized out of the bunch. The numbers make you wonder how anyone can say his play was on the decline... decline from what? So as far as the Brown/Bushrod debate, the only thing to debate is whether to keep both of them. And with both Brown and Bushrod being restricted free agent(unless a new CBA is agreed upon), you keep both. It's a no brainer.
	Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege. All little common sense goes a long way.

02-10-2010, 09:47 PM	#27
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,729	Re: The Brown/Bushrod debate Gotta keep both guys around. Bushrod is getting closer, but he is not there yet. Brown is a legitimate all pro, going to be nice to have him back next year. Saints did a great job covering up the weakness at LT, they won't get away with that forever.

02-10-2010, 10:00 PM	#28
SaintPauly Senior Citizen Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Gulfport, MS Posts: 3,180 Blog Entries: 1	Re: The Brown/Bushrod debate I'm curious what happens to ufa's, and rfa's, in 2011, if a new CBA has not been agreed upon. If there's a lock out, what happens to these players status then?

02-10-2010, 10:12 PM	#29
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,324	Re: The Brown/Bushrod debate Whether or not Bushrod or Brown is actually better right now is irrelevant in the discussion. Payton and Loomis have already tried trading Brown once before. The reason is the goal is to field the best football team, not have the best LT. I thought Bushrod did a heck of a job in his first year, and he is going to improve. Brown is better, but is his talent at so much of a higher level over Bushrod that it's worth keeping him and missing out on the chance to shore up our defense with some talent(Julius Peppers maybe or a 1st round draft pick). With the way our offense moves the ball, and with the way the offensive line held up without Brown, I'd say that O-line is the least of our worries.
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,324

02-10-2010, 10:18 PM	#30
lynwood 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hockley, Tx Posts: 1,515	Re: The Brown/Bushrod debate Brown might have some low penalties compared to others but they came as drive killers. When we needed to keep a drive alive it would be a false start or a hold. Anyway I say bring them both in and let them compete. Best guy wins. If you can keep both great!