BillyCarpenter1

The term \"West Coast\" has really become meaningless. There are so many variations of the \"West Coast\" offense that you just can\'t clearly define what a \"West Coast\" offense is anymore.

Our offense really isn\'t much different than what the Dallas Cowboys ran when they had Aikman, Emmit, and Irvin. Our offense does not use the east/west passing game. Our passing game stretches the field north and south and clearly uses the running game more than the average \"West Coast\" offense. At least that\'s what I see when I watch the game on Sundays.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Edited on 24/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

tweeky

I always thought Walsh created the WCO because he originally didn\'t have the talent to compete conventionally. He didn\'t have the dominant OL, BIG and FAST RB, QB with a cannon, and lightning fast WR\'s who could get deep.
So he devised a game plan utilizing short routes to WR\'s in stride, a logical Left to Right, Right to Left progression of quick reads to keep his QB alive, and multiple swing routes by his RB\'s and FB\'s. This kept his QB alive because his OL didn\'t have to hold their blocks long, the smaller quicker RB\'s could succeed, and the FB became a weapon in the passing game, which they previously weren\'t.

QB- Now could just have an average arm if he was smart.
RB- The slightly smaller, athletic guy could now succeed in an era of power backs.
WR- Didn\'t need the fastest guys anymore to exploit defenses.
FB- Brought the athletic FB with good hand into the game. Took forever for defenses to adjust to.
OL- No longer needed the Hogs to move the football. Didn\'t need to hold their blocks as long.
TE- Now needed a LB or DB attention, which eased DL pressure.

When someone says they run a WC style, it just means they utilize the short patterns and read-progressions that Walsh implemented, and some of the same plays that utilize the FB, RB, and TE in pass patterns.
When we say we run a hybrid, it just means we still occasionally use the conventional power formations and the deep fly and crossing patterns that Walsh didn\'t run very often.

Whether we agree or disagree; its all for Him.

BillyCarpenter1

Tweeky --

That was a good explination. I agree with all of it but this one point you made:


I have to disagree with this one. I think the staple of our offense is the power formation. I do not think it is only used occasinally. Would you say our offense is more simular to what Dallas used under Jimmy Johnson or the 49\'ers under Bill Walsh?

saintfan

Either way you look at it, a variation of a thing is a thing unto itself. Saintz08 uses the \"West Coast\" argument because of his agenda. He thinks Jake Delhomme is a perfect fit for a true \"West Coast\" offense and thus he wants us to beleive that\'s what the Saints are running. If that were true his argument for going with Brooks as opposed to Jake would have some weight, but it doesn\'t because we don\'t run a true West Coast offense. We never have. We run a variation of it as do lots of NFL teams.

The fact remains it\'s not a true West Coast offense and it never was. NOBODY is running a true West Coast offense anymore.

Now, you\'re welcome to try again 08, but do yourself a favor and remove the Jake Delhomme goggles and stop drinkin the Kool-Aid before you come in here and try and pull the wool over my eyes. I\'ve seen your current act, and it\'s old and tired.

C'mon Man...

BillyCarpenter1

Just to get back on 08\'s point that Brooks can\'t run the west coast offense -- I can\'t say that Brooks is ideal for the quick timing patterns or that he\'s great at reading defenses. I think he\'s better at it than some give him credit for, but I can\'t say these are his best traits.

I am really not worried about the west coast offense. I\'m not worried about Brooks\' stats. The only thing I\'m worried about as far as Brooks goes, is POINTS out of the passing game. Last year he threw 27-TD passes, using WHATEVER kind of offense we were running. This year he has improved on the things that a lot of members were complaing about. Which is completion percentage and making good decisions. He\'s not going to be perfect, as no QB is. So, keep using the arguement that he isn\'t the right QB for our system, if that makes you happy. I\'ll be happy everytime that score board increases by 7-points.



[Edited on 24/10/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

saintz08

Tap tap tap ......

School is in boys ....

The best place to start dissecting Holmgren\'s offense is at the beginning. Just what is, or was, the West Coast offense?

\"It\'s the ball-control passing game that sets up the running game,\" Jones said. \"But it has evolved. People talk about it being short passes, but it\'s much more than that. It has become high-percentage passes and also the opportunity to create big plays down field.\"

Offers Holmgren: \"Often times a short pass will be substituted for another running play. It\'s easier. If you gain 6 yards on a run, what\'s Barry Sanders average per run? No one averages 6 yards a carry.\"

Holmgren concedes he has stuck with the Walsh philosophy. But it is the variations on that original theme that have set Holmgren\'s system apart:

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Saintsfan
Back of the room with the dunce cap for you for this little blurp :
The West Coast offense most certainly does NOT NOT NOT use the short timing-base routes to \"set up the running game\". Brother, you\'re dead wrong...as usual.


\"It\'s the ball-control passing game that sets up the running game .Think about it boys , Roger Craig was a 1000 yard back .

Walsh designed the WCO.
He had the luxury of the three ideal components that make the WCO work -- a running back (Roger Craig) that can carry the ball 20 times if needed and be successful, wide receivers (Jerry Rice and John Taylor) that could get immediate separation for pass plays designed to be thrown with a couple of second seconds and, most importantly, a quarterback (Joe Montana) able to read and recognize defenses immediately and locate the \"hot receiver.\"




[Edited on 24/10/2003 by saintz08]

\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton
On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan
Brooks is a moron!! - Halo

saintfan

WEST COAST OFFENSE OVERVIEW
Short pass plays replace the running game to control the ball
Bill Walsh originated with the San Francisco 49ers.
Long process for QB to pick-up all the reads and adjustments.
Release all five receivers into the pattern.
QB has progression read up to five receivers.
Take what the defensive gives you.
Make the defense adjust to you.


That is the West Coast offense as designed by Bill Walsh.

\"Holmgren concedes he has stuck with the Walsh philosophy. But it is the variations on that original theme that have set Holmgren\'s system apart\"

You typed that in your own damn post proving yourself wrong and aren\'t wise enough to see it...good lord...can you SEE the word VARIATION in your own damn post? Man are you drunk or what?

FYI, I dropped beginner guitar my first year in college because I knew more than the instructor. Looks like I\'ll need to drop this class too.

By the way, we\'re not dissecting HOLMGREN\'S offense, we\'re dissecting the WEST COAST OFFENSE AS INVENTED BY BILL WALSH for heaven\'s sake...

You\'re doing what you always do 08, your bending and twisting and contorting in your best effort to manipulate the facts to fit your agenda. You don\'t have ANYONE fooled anymore 08. I realize it\'s hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but you need to give up already. Everytime you post this kinda BS your ignorance shows. Do yourself a favor and give up man. You look more and more foolish all the time!

C'mon Man...

BillyCarpenter1

08 --

What\'s your point? You are getting really hard to follow. I think your point is that the Saints set up the run by using a short passing game? Is that right?

If your answer is yes then --

I disagree. Deuce is not just an average back. He is one of the best backs in the league and he is featured as such. What I\'ve seen is a STEADY dose of Deuce to set up the pass. Futhermore, I don\'t see all these short dink and dunk passes that are the hallmark of the West Coast offense. I see us stretching the field much more vertically than what the West Coast offense does.

Maybe McCarthy had intentions of having a West Coast offense when he first came to the Saints, but I think he has adjusted the offense to the strengths of the personal the Saints currently have, like any good coordinator would do.

I\'ll say this again. I don\'t care what offense you want to say we are running -- Aaron Brooks is performing well in it. You don\'t think so?

saintz08

Tap tap tap

Saintsfan earns another timeout .

Just don\'t call the system he has brought to the Seahawks the West Coast offense. Not in front of Holmgren, anyway.

Sure, its roots are firmly planted in the pass-oriented offense Bill Walsh introduced to the NFL in the 1980s while he was head coach of the San Francisco 49ers. Sure, Holmgren was Walsh\'s quarterbacks coach for three seasons. Sure, Holmgren was then the team\'s offensive coordinator for three more seasons after Walsh gave way to George Seifert.

Saintsfan
You typed that in your own damn post proving yourself wrong and aren\'t wise enough to see it...good lord...can you SEE the word VARIATION in your own damn post? Man are you drunk or what?

The variation is Holmgren offense in Seattle .


Walsh designed the WCO.
He had the luxury of the three ideal components that make the WCO work -- a running back (Roger Craig) that can carry the ball 20 times if needed and be successful, wide receivers (Jerry Rice and John Taylor) that could get immediate separation for pass plays designed to be thrown with a couple of second seconds and, most importantly, a quarterback (Joe Montana) able to read and recognize defenses immediately and locate the \"hot receiver.\"

The original designed Walsh concept Saintsfan was for the pass to set up the run , as opposed to a traditional offense which uses the run to set up the pass .

\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton
On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan
Brooks is a moron!! - Halo

saintz08

Tap tap tap

Saintsfan earns another timeout .

Just don\'t call the system he has brought to the Seahawks the West Coast offense. Not in front of Holmgren, anyway.

Sure, its roots are firmly planted in the pass-oriented offense Bill Walsh introduced to the NFL in the 1980s while he was head coach of the San Francisco 49ers. Sure, Holmgren was Walsh\'s quarterbacks coach for three seasons. Sure, Holmgren was then the team\'s offensive coordinator for three more seasons after Walsh gave way to George Seifert.

Saintsfan
You typed that in your own damn post proving yourself wrong and aren\'t wise enough to see it...good lord...can you SEE the word VARIATION in your own damn post? Man are you drunk or what?

The variation is Holmgren offense in Seattle .


Walsh designed the WCO.
He had the luxury of the three ideal components that make the WCO work -- a running back (Roger Craig) that can carry the ball 20 times if needed and be successful, wide receivers (Jerry Rice and John Taylor) that could get immediate separation for pass plays designed to be thrown with a couple of second seconds and, most importantly, a quarterback (Joe Montana) able to read and recognize defenses immediately and locate the \"hot receiver.\"

The original designed Walsh concept Saintsfan was for the pass to set up the run , as opposed to a traditional offense which uses the run to set up the pass .

\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton
On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan
Brooks is a moron!! - Halo