saintz08

When did I stop ???

saintfan

Good Point. Looks like I blew the call on that one. LOL

:P

Danno

This thread has officially become pathetic.

Parting shots from released players?

Gee that never happens does it?

See ex-players from such mickey-mouse coaches as Parcells, Belichick, Landry, Shula, Sherman, Reid, Billick, Gruden, and about 40 more.
WEAK! very weak. I expected more from you Gator.
I was also hoping when you said you were thru with this thread it meant it.

Is there an official way to kill a thread other than ignoring it?

JKool

Alright people, get a hold of yourselves.

Gator, I can see your upset with Saintfan - and from what I\'ve read, that seems reasonable. As a result, I thought twice before replying here. However, out of respect for your arguments, I thought I had to say something.

(1) The quotes you give by players against Haz are not sufficient to show that Haz is a bad \"players\" coach. Danno listed as many players who seemed to be happy with him. I agree that there is cause for concern, so your evidence is well taken, but your conclusion (if I have correctly inferred it, which I have probably not) does not seem to be deducible from the evidence even in just this thread.

(2) I like your point about the coach and GM\'s inability to select talent at the right price. I think that is exactly right.

(3) Haz has certainly made some bad decisions. I don\'t think anyone disagreed with that claim. However, AND I AM NOT TAKING SIDES ON THIS, Saintfan\'s point I thought was that a few things that were obviously Haz\'s mistake does not alone make it obvious that he is THE problem, let alone the ONLY problem (and I\'m sure you\'ll agree).

(4) Everyone here needs to give up on the idea that they have FACTs on their side - facts are always interpreted (go back and see my earlier post on this). Thus, all you can do is give your views, back \'em up, and hope people will see the point. When someone challenges you, answer their argument (of course that applies to everybody) don\'t yell at them.

(5) You guys think there is a difference between fact and opinion but everyone thinks their opinion is the one based on the facts. Thus, it is no escape from an argument to say that you are merely stating an opinion, your opinion is the basis of your belief, or that opinions are unchallengable BECAUSE opinions are based on supposed facts. Of course, the reason we talk about all this is for (1) fun and (2) to see if our opinions meet the facts (that is why we discuss them).

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

WhoDat

Show me a quote Danno. I can\'t remember anyone other than Keyshawn Johnson ever being upset with any of those coaches. Show me some proof to support those claims please.


No he didn\'t. He showed players and coaches who came to New Orleans. Not once did he show that any of those players were motivated by Haslett as compared to money, or their baby\'s mama living in New Orleans.

No? What evidence has been shown to the contrary? If Gator\'s conclusion is invalid, then why have the Saints been .500 the last three years? Bad luck again? That\'s more acceptable than a gaggle of quotes from players saying that Haslett is the problem?

On this point, I totally agree.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

chRxis

this form has become rediculous

JKool

I can see this thread will not go away.

(1) The claim that Haz is the cause of players leaving is supported, as near as I can tell, by Roaf (where it is unclear to me what caused him to leave), which I respect (i.e. IS evidence), Turley, he is a nut job, so I give little credence to what he says, and Hawthorne, a player looking to blame others for why he sucks. Players who say good things about us include Cox and some current players (like Brooks) - maybe more support is need here, but I\'m inclined to think not. Either way, do you really think a handful of people (3) saying things that are at least not obviously \"Haz is the reason I\'m leaving\" who also have other reasons to be upset, are PROOF of any kind that Haz IS the problem here. I think they are reason for concern, but I\'m not willing to go to the bank on this evidence.

(2) You don\'t really think that a few players intimating that there is a problem with an organization (which club does this not happen to?) should lead to the conclusion that \"Haz is exactly the problem\". That is why the argument is invalid - it is an inductive inference (i.e. requires some background assumptions - WhoDat\'s being that there must be a single cause for the .500 seasons, I guess - which I don\'t agree with yet).

(3) I never said anything about \"bad luck\". I\'m on the \"it may be more complicated than it seems\" (i.e. there is no SINGLE cause for the problems) bus - which I\'m sure most of us agree.

(4) Point taken. Most of Danno\'s evidence was as follows: if word on the street were that it sucked to play for Haz, why would these guys come here? I don\'t know what to say about that, but arguments to the contrary have not convinced me yet (perhaps because I am stupid). Of course, Danno\'s claims are evidence to the contrary, even if I failed to report how they were evidence accurately earlier.

(5) I\'m glad we agree on something.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

JKool

Wow, you guys type fast!

Gator, I\'m sorry if you thought my (4) that you note in your reply was for you; it wasn\'t.

Cheers.

JKool

Oh, also, I agree with Gator\'s first deduction (and I think it is sound), just not the additional one.

saintfan

Well Gator, you tried...I think...props to you for that, but all you\'ve proven is that there are a few disgruntled players...no different than any other organization. If you percieve that as proof of your (and Kule Turley\'s) Mickey Mouse statement then we\'ll just have to disagree. I don\'t think you\'ve proven a thing...respectfully.

Not preceeded with \"I think\", and I would have left it alone, accept that it\'s a tactic you and Whodat seem to be quite fond of. Did it come up \"quite a bit\". When? By Whom? I was only seeking proof of that statement, and as of yet there isn\'t any. That is the statement I challenged. You\'ve made it personal...and further you still haven\'t proven it.

The rest of ya\'ll can take it up from here. I\'ll only be back to this thread if I\'m attacked...again...so Gator, stop callin\' me Nutcase, baby, Lord Bong, etc and I\'ll be more than happy to let it die. It seems there\'s plenty of information in this thread that shows I\'m not the only guy here who thinks (a) the Saints aren\'t a Mickey Mouse organization and (b) that Haz can coach this team.

My work here is done.

Gator, don\'t make me prove to everyone that you\'re guilty of essentially everything you\'ve accused me of ok?


You got banned for being FAR worse as I recall.


[Edited on 18/4/2004 by saintfan]

[Edited on 19/4/2004 by saintfan]

[Edited on 19/4/2004 by saintfan]

C'mon Man...