Nitpicking 101

rAge · 04-13-2004, 10:53 PM

OK...here is what i dont get...If all of you are pretty much dead set that Hall and Robinson and gonna be gone when we pick and you all believe that Vilma is gonna be there...then why would you be upset if the Saints would draft one of CB\'s over Vilma? If Vilma were as good as rAGE says he is...he would be a top 5 pick. I like Vilma, i really do, but the guy is not Ray Lewis and i dont like the comparison. Until he wins the SuperBowl, wins defensive MVP awards...establishes his mark of dominance...and stabs 2 or 3 people...I dont want to hear the argument. I think Hall and Robinson are safer picks than Vilma and you must too because you think they will be gone and Vilma will still be there. Who is to say that Keyaron Fox wont be better than Vilma and that Keith Smith wont be better than Hall and Robinson. None of us know and i cant wait for the draft so i can stop hearing about Vilma. rAGE should be the guy\'s agent because he does a good job of talking him up but i am still not sold on him. I wouldnt mind him in black and gold but hearing all this is making me dislike the guy already.

He\'s not a top 10 pick because of his size. If he was 10lbs bigger, he would be a top 10 lock and possibly even a top 5 lock (with the redskins or lions probably taking him).

I think the corners will be gone first because there are teams who need them more than they need a MLB. Corners are NEVER safer picks than LB\'s. Actually corners are about the biggest risk you can take in a draft. The only thing that comes close are WR\'s and QB\'s.

JimBone · 04-13-2004, 11:30 PM

OK rAGE, lets play this game...Say you are the GM of a team. If you have two corners, who apparently play a position that is of high risk, on one hand...and then on the other hand you have a linebacker, who with an added 10 pounds immediately becomes the best LB in the game. Which route do you go? I know which way you would go in fantasy land...but in reality, why is it that teams who have equal need at both positions, would go with the corner instead. And i dont care who is on my team, if there is a guy in the draft that can put on 10 pounds and be an elite linebacker overnight, i draft him right off the bat. The point i am making is that you see something in Vilma that paid professionals just dont see. I know the guy can be a good one, but the guy will not be Ray Lewis. He may be a Nate Webster...he might be a Zach Thomas...he might be a Chris Bordano. I just dont see how you can make that strong a case for a guy that you know is gonna be around at the 18th pick.

turbo_dog · 04-14-2004, 03:55 AM

Not that I\'m comparing the two, but Ray Lewis was the 26th pick.

rAge · 04-14-2004, 12:06 PM

Not that I\'m comparing the two, but Ray Lewis was the 26th pick.

Exactly. Ray Lewis wasn\'t even Ray Lewis coming out of college. People seem to forget that he was not a top 10 pick, he wasn\'t even a top 20 pick. And he was a player that is damn near exactly like Vilma is right now.

And here is another argument for you, look at the likes of Jerry Rice, Randy Moss & Marvin Harrison. I know these are all WR\'s, but they all went mid-first round and that shows that half the time the scouting teams base too much on how much of an athelte or how much potential a guy has and not how productive that player is. There are countless guys who slip through the cracks every year for idiotic reasons. Vilma\'s reason - he is 233lbs. It\'s a stupid reason not to select somebody, but that is exactly why he is not a top 10 pick. It has nothing to do with how talented the guy is.

Cadillac · 04-14-2004, 12:55 PM

Exactly. Ray Lewis wasn\'t even Ray Lewis coming out of college. People seem to forget that he was not a top 10 pick, he wasn\'t even a top 20 pick. And he was a player that is damn near exactly like Vilma is right now.

I\'ve said it before and I\'ll say it again, Vilma reminds me more of Dan Morgan or Dat Nguyen than he does Ray Lewis. Vilma has good quickness and instincts, and he will probably be a success in the NFL. But I haven\'t seen him play with the intensity and pride of a guy like Ray Lewis.

Lewis is a great leader, a guy who makes people around him better. From what I\'ve seen, Vilma isn\'t really that kind of guy. Like Dan Morgan or Nguyen, Vilma has the skills to succeed even though he is undersized. I just have never seen enough to show me that he will be one of the games great linebackers.

BlackandBlue · 04-14-2004, 01:00 PM

Lewis is a great leader, a guy who makes people around him better. From what I\'ve seen, Vilma isn\'t really that kind of guy.

There are alot of people that would disagree with you on Vilma. He is very cerebral and has been referred to as a natural leader on defense. If you don\'t believe me, so a search on the web, and you will find others that agree with those sentiments.

Danno · 04-14-2004, 01:11 PM

Exactly. Ray Lewis wasn\'t even Ray Lewis coming out of college. People seem to forget that he was not a top 10 pick, he wasn\'t even a top 20 pick. And he was a player that is damn near exactly like Vilma is right now.

I\'ve said it before and I\'ll say it again, Vilma reminds me more of Dan Morgan or Dat Nguyen than he does Ray Lewis. Vilma has good quickness and instincts, and he will probably be a success in the NFL. But I haven\'t seen him play with the intensity and pride of a guy like Ray Lewis.

Lewis is a great leader, a guy who makes people around him better. From what I\'ve seen, Vilma isn\'t really that kind of guy. Like Dan Morgan or Nguyen, Vilma has the skills to succeed even though he is undersized. I just have never seen enough to show me that he will be one of the games great linebackers.

I\'ve also heard reports that Lewis\'s teammates are getting a bit tired of the rah-rah in your face arrogance of Ray Lewis. They are tired of him getting credit for so called \"making everyone else around him better\". There would still be many outstanding players on that team regardless of Ray Lewis. Ozzie and Savage have done an excellent job of assembling a very talented roster.

JimBone · 04-14-2004, 02:02 PM

I am pretty sure that there have been a good share of undersized LB\'s taken in the middle of round one or even in possibly in round two or three that turned out to be better than average LB\'s. I am sure that a lot of them turned out to be bouncers at a college night club. My point is if everyone were so dead set on this guy having Ray Lewis potential, and him being a clone of some sort, same height, weight, college, and everything else...then why is it a toss up as to whether or not he is the best LB in this class? Also, if the Saints have confidence in Cie Grant to be the speedy undersized LB to man the middle, why would we need another one? You cant just give up on a 3rd round pick in his second year for another guy who pretty much fits the same mold.

rAge · 04-14-2004, 02:08 PM

I am pretty sure that there have been a good share of undersized LB\'s taken in the middle of round one or even in possibly in round two or three that turned out to be better than average LB\'s. I am sure that a lot of them turned out to be bouncers at a college night club. My point is if everyone were so dead set on this guy having Ray Lewis potential, and him being a clone of some sort, same height, weight, college, and everything else...then why is it a toss up as to whether or not he is the best LB in this class? Also, if the Saints have confidence in Cie Grant to be the speedy undersized LB to man the middle, why would we need another one? You cant just give up on a 3rd round pick in his second year for another guy who pretty much fits the same mold.

You can not compare Cie Grant to Jon Vilma. Grant was (is) very raw and doesn\'t know how to play the position. You could always move him to WLB anyway.

turbo_dog · 04-14-2004, 03:31 PM

Here are some examples of the great job all of your experts have been doing.

1998 Draft
Ryan Leaf, Washington State, 6-5, 261 2nd pick
Passed for almost 4,000 yards and threw 33 touchdown passes as he led Washington State to its first Rose Bowl appearance since 1931. Leaf has a stronger arm and seems to be a more natural passer then Manning.

Curtis Enis, Penn State, 6-1, 242 5th pick
Powerful runner with speed, good hands, and quick feet. A complete back who can catch the ball out of the backfield and pass block.

Andre Wadsworth, Florida State, 6-3 5/8, 270 3rd pick
Best pass rusher in the draft. A great athlete and competitor who always works hard and never stops giving 110%. Excels with both a hard inside and a quick outside pass rush. Should be the number three player taken in the draft.

RB Blair Thomas (2) Penn State-New York Jets-1990
WR Desmond Howard(4) Michigan-Washington Redskins-1992
TE Ricky Dudley(9) Ohio State-Houston Oilers-1996
OT Tony Mandarich(2) Michigan State-Green Bay Packers-1989
OG Eugene Chung(13) Virginia Tech-New England Patriots-1992
DE Aundray Bruce(1) Auburn-Atlanta Falcons-1988
DT Steve Emtman(1) Washington-Indianapolis Colts-1992
LB Brian Bosworth(2) Oklahoma-Seattle Seahawks-1987
CB Bruce Pickens(3) Nebraska-Atlanta Falcons-1991
S Patrick Bates (12) Texas A&M-Los Angeles Raiders-1993
QB Heath Schuler (3) Tennessee-Washington Redskins-1994
RB Lawrence Philips (6) Nebraska-St. Louis Rams-1995
WR Michael Westbrook (4) Colorado-Washington Redskins-1995
TE David LaFluer(22) LSU-Dallas Cowboys-1997
OT Antoine Davis(8) Tennessee-Philadelphia Eagles-1991
OG Brian Jozwiak(7) West Virginia-Kansas City Chiefs-1986
DT Dimitrius Underwood(29) Michigan State-MinnesotaVikings-1999
LB Percy Snow(13) Michigan State-Kansas City Chiefs-1990
CB Michael Booker(11) Nebraska-Atlanta Flacons-1997
S Shaun Williams(24) UCLA-New York Giants-1998

My point is that this is not an exact science. Nobody knows how good these players will be at the next level. The above is a list of busts. I\'m sure we could make a list just as long of players that weren\'t supposed to be very good and ended up playing very well. There is no reason to think that because some of us disagree with the \"experts\" that we have no idea about a player. This is all conjecture anyway.

Quote:
Also, these scouts have been watching these guys all year long, go to their schools workout days and everything else. Would you give these guys just a little credit?

I happen to be a \'Canes fan and have been watching them all year. I saw all but one game they played this year. My opinion is probably a little biased, I admit. But I\'ll say this, Sean Taylor is the best player in this draft, period. Wilfork is the best DT in this draft, I think. DJ Williams and Vilma are two excellent LBs and I\'d be very happy to see either wearing the Black and Gold, because I think they will help this defense sooner rather than later like our past LB selections.

This is fun.

04-13-2004, 10:53 PM	#1
rAge 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 320	Nitpicking 101 OK...here is what i dont get...If all of you are pretty much dead set that Hall and Robinson and gonna be gone when we pick and you all believe that Vilma is gonna be there...then why would you be upset if the Saints would draft one of CB\'s over Vilma? If Vilma were as good as rAGE says he is...he would be a top 5 pick. I like Vilma, i really do, but the guy is not Ray Lewis and i dont like the comparison. Until he wins the SuperBowl, wins defensive MVP awards...establishes his mark of dominance...and stabs 2 or 3 people...I dont want to hear the argument. I think Hall and Robinson are safer picks than Vilma and you must too because you think they will be gone and Vilma will still be there. Who is to say that Keyaron Fox wont be better than Vilma and that Keith Smith wont be better than Hall and Robinson. None of us know and i cant wait for the draft so i can stop hearing about Vilma. rAGE should be the guy\'s agent because he does a good job of talking him up but i am still not sold on him. I wouldnt mind him in black and gold but hearing all this is making me dislike the guy already. He\'s not a top 10 pick because of his size. If he was 10lbs bigger, he would be a top 10 lock and possibly even a top 5 lock (with the redskins or lions probably taking him). I think the corners will be gone first because there are teams who need them more than they need a MLB. Corners are NEVER safer picks than LB\'s. Actually corners are about the biggest risk you can take in a draft. The only thing that comes close are WR\'s and QB\'s.
rAge 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 320

04-13-2004, 11:30 PM	#2
JimBone 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Thibodaux, La Posts: 614	Nitpicking 101 OK rAGE, lets play this game...Say you are the GM of a team. If you have two corners, who apparently play a position that is of high risk, on one hand...and then on the other hand you have a linebacker, who with an added 10 pounds immediately becomes the best LB in the game. Which route do you go? I know which way you would go in fantasy land...but in reality, why is it that teams who have equal need at both positions, would go with the corner instead. And i dont care who is on my team, if there is a guy in the draft that can put on 10 pounds and be an elite linebacker overnight, i draft him right off the bat. The point i am making is that you see something in Vilma that paid professionals just dont see. I know the guy can be a good one, but the guy will not be Ray Lewis. He may be a Nate Webster...he might be a Zach Thomas...he might be a Chris Bordano. I just dont see how you can make that strong a case for a guy that you know is gonna be around at the 18th pick.
	Aaaaaayyyyyy!! -The Fonz

04-14-2004, 03:55 AM	#3
turbo_dog 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Atlanta Posts: 1,708	Nitpicking 101 Not that I\'m comparing the two, but Ray Lewis was the 26th pick.

04-14-2004, 12:06 PM	#4
rAge 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 320	Nitpicking 101 Not that I\'m comparing the two, but Ray Lewis was the 26th pick. Exactly. Ray Lewis wasn\'t even Ray Lewis coming out of college. People seem to forget that he was not a top 10 pick, he wasn\'t even a top 20 pick. And he was a player that is damn near exactly like Vilma is right now. And here is another argument for you, look at the likes of Jerry Rice, Randy Moss & Marvin Harrison. I know these are all WR\'s, but they all went mid-first round and that shows that half the time the scouting teams base too much on how much of an athelte or how much potential a guy has and not how productive that player is. There are countless guys who slip through the cracks every year for idiotic reasons. Vilma\'s reason - he is 233lbs. It\'s a stupid reason not to select somebody, but that is exactly why he is not a top 10 pick. It has nothing to do with how talented the guy is.
rAge 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 320	http://www.cutandpastescripts.com/cg...=forgottenrage

04-14-2004, 12:55 PM	#5
Cadillac 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 121	Nitpicking 101 Exactly. Ray Lewis wasn\'t even Ray Lewis coming out of college. People seem to forget that he was not a top 10 pick, he wasn\'t even a top 20 pick. And he was a player that is damn near exactly like Vilma is right now. I\'ve said it before and I\'ll say it again, Vilma reminds me more of Dan Morgan or Dat Nguyen than he does Ray Lewis. Vilma has good quickness and instincts, and he will probably be a success in the NFL. But I haven\'t seen him play with the intensity and pride of a guy like Ray Lewis. Lewis is a great leader, a guy who makes people around him better. From what I\'ve seen, Vilma isn\'t really that kind of guy. Like Dan Morgan or Nguyen, Vilma has the skills to succeed even though he is undersized. I just have never seen enough to show me that he will be one of the games great linebackers.
Cadillac 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 121	\'They want to give me $6 million. What do I do? - Fred Thomas

04-14-2004, 01:00 PM	#6
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Nitpicking 101 Lewis is a great leader, a guy who makes people around him better. From what I\'ve seen, Vilma isn\'t really that kind of guy. There are alot of people that would disagree with you on Vilma. He is very cerebral and has been referred to as a natural leader on defense. If you don\'t believe me, so a search on the web, and you will find others that agree with those sentiments.

04-14-2004, 01:11 PM	#7
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,758	Nitpicking 101 Exactly. Ray Lewis wasn\'t even Ray Lewis coming out of college. People seem to forget that he was not a top 10 pick, he wasn\'t even a top 20 pick. And he was a player that is damn near exactly like Vilma is right now. I\'ve said it before and I\'ll say it again, Vilma reminds me more of Dan Morgan or Dat Nguyen than he does Ray Lewis. Vilma has good quickness and instincts, and he will probably be a success in the NFL. But I haven\'t seen him play with the intensity and pride of a guy like Ray Lewis. Lewis is a great leader, a guy who makes people around him better. From what I\'ve seen, Vilma isn\'t really that kind of guy. Like Dan Morgan or Nguyen, Vilma has the skills to succeed even though he is undersized. I just have never seen enough to show me that he will be one of the games great linebackers. I\'ve also heard reports that Lewis\'s teammates are getting a bit tired of the rah-rah in your face arrogance of Ray Lewis. They are tired of him getting credit for so called \"making everyone else around him better\". There would still be many outstanding players on that team regardless of Ray Lewis. Ozzie and Savage have done an excellent job of assembling a very talented roster.

04-14-2004, 02:02 PM	#8
JimBone 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Thibodaux, La Posts: 614	Nitpicking 101 I am pretty sure that there have been a good share of undersized LB\'s taken in the middle of round one or even in possibly in round two or three that turned out to be better than average LB\'s. I am sure that a lot of them turned out to be bouncers at a college night club. My point is if everyone were so dead set on this guy having Ray Lewis potential, and him being a clone of some sort, same height, weight, college, and everything else...then why is it a toss up as to whether or not he is the best LB in this class? Also, if the Saints have confidence in Cie Grant to be the speedy undersized LB to man the middle, why would we need another one? You cant just give up on a 3rd round pick in his second year for another guy who pretty much fits the same mold.
	Aaaaaayyyyyy!! -The Fonz

04-14-2004, 02:08 PM	#9
rAge 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 320	Nitpicking 101 I am pretty sure that there have been a good share of undersized LB\'s taken in the middle of round one or even in possibly in round two or three that turned out to be better than average LB\'s. I am sure that a lot of them turned out to be bouncers at a college night club. My point is if everyone were so dead set on this guy having Ray Lewis potential, and him being a clone of some sort, same height, weight, college, and everything else...then why is it a toss up as to whether or not he is the best LB in this class? Also, if the Saints have confidence in Cie Grant to be the speedy undersized LB to man the middle, why would we need another one? You cant just give up on a 3rd round pick in his second year for another guy who pretty much fits the same mold. You can not compare Cie Grant to Jon Vilma. Grant was (is) very raw and doesn\'t know how to play the position. You could always move him to WLB anyway.
rAge 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 320

04-14-2004, 03:31 PM	#10
turbo_dog 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Atlanta Posts: 1,708	Nitpicking 101 Here are some examples of the great job all of your experts have been doing. 1998 Draft Ryan Leaf, Washington State, 6-5, 261 2nd pick Passed for almost 4,000 yards and threw 33 touchdown passes as he led Washington State to its first Rose Bowl appearance since 1931. Leaf has a stronger arm and seems to be a more natural passer then Manning. Curtis Enis, Penn State, 6-1, 242 5th pick Powerful runner with speed, good hands, and quick feet. A complete back who can catch the ball out of the backfield and pass block. Andre Wadsworth, Florida State, 6-3 5/8, 270 3rd pick Best pass rusher in the draft. A great athlete and competitor who always works hard and never stops giving 110%. Excels with both a hard inside and a quick outside pass rush. Should be the number three player taken in the draft. RB Blair Thomas (2) Penn State-New York Jets-1990 WR Desmond Howard(4) Michigan-Washington Redskins-1992 TE Ricky Dudley(9) Ohio State-Houston Oilers-1996 OT Tony Mandarich(2) Michigan State-Green Bay Packers-1989 OG Eugene Chung(13) Virginia Tech-New England Patriots-1992 DE Aundray Bruce(1) Auburn-Atlanta Falcons-1988 DT Steve Emtman(1) Washington-Indianapolis Colts-1992 LB Brian Bosworth(2) Oklahoma-Seattle Seahawks-1987 CB Bruce Pickens(3) Nebraska-Atlanta Falcons-1991 S Patrick Bates (12) Texas A&M-Los Angeles Raiders-1993 QB Heath Schuler (3) Tennessee-Washington Redskins-1994 RB Lawrence Philips (6) Nebraska-St. Louis Rams-1995 WR Michael Westbrook (4) Colorado-Washington Redskins-1995 TE David LaFluer(22) LSU-Dallas Cowboys-1997 OT Antoine Davis(8) Tennessee-Philadelphia Eagles-1991 OG Brian Jozwiak(7) West Virginia-Kansas City Chiefs-1986 DT Dimitrius Underwood(29) Michigan State-MinnesotaVikings-1999 LB Percy Snow(13) Michigan State-Kansas City Chiefs-1990 CB Michael Booker(11) Nebraska-Atlanta Flacons-1997 S Shaun Williams(24) UCLA-New York Giants-1998 My point is that this is not an exact science. Nobody knows how good these players will be at the next level. The above is a list of busts. I\'m sure we could make a list just as long of players that weren\'t supposed to be very good and ended up playing very well. There is no reason to think that because some of us disagree with the \"experts\" that we have no idea about a player. This is all conjecture anyway. Quote: Also, these scouts have been watching these guys all year long, go to their schools workout days and everything else. Would you give these guys just a little credit? I happen to be a \'Canes fan and have been watching them all year. I saw all but one game they played this year. My opinion is probably a little biased, I admit. But I\'ll say this, Sean Taylor is the best player in this draft, period. Wilfork is the best DT in this draft, I think. DJ Williams and Vilma are two excellent LBs and I\'d be very happy to see either wearing the Black and Gold, because I think they will help this defense sooner rather than later like our past LB selections. This is fun.