Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?

RaginCajun83 · 02-20-2013, 09:21 PM

Well look a the track record of those so called "scouts" back then, some of those drafts look like they were throwing darts to make selections

TheOak · 02-21-2013, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Are you kidding? Look at their successes...

1 6 Julio Jones WR Alabama
3 91 Akeem Dent LB Georgia
5 145 Jacquizz Rodgers RB Oregon State
6 192 Matt Bosher P Miami (Fla.)7
210 Andrew Jackson G Fresno State
7 230 Cliff Matthews DE South Carolina
2010 - Atlanta Falcons
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 19 Sean Weatherspoon OLB Missouri
3 83 Corey Peters DT Kentucky
3 98 Mike Johnson G Alabama
4 117 Joe Hawley C Nevada-Las Vegas
5 135 Dominique Franks DB Oklahoma
5 165 Kerry Meier WR Kansas
6 171 Shann Schillinger DB Montana
2009 - Atlanta Falcons
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 24 Peria Jerry DT Mississippi
2 55 William Moore DB Missouri
3 90 Chris Owens DB San Jose State
4 125 Lawrence Sidbury DE Richmond
5 138 William Middleton DB Furman
5 156 Garrett Reynolds T North Carolina
6 176 Spencer Adkins LB Miami (Fla.)
7 210 Vance Walker DT Georgia Tech
2008 - Atlanta Falcons
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 3 Matt Ryan QB Boston College
1 21 Sam Baker T USC
2 37 Curtis Lofton MLB Oklahoma
3 68 Chevis Jackson CB Louisiana State
3 84 Harry Douglas WR Louisville
3 98 Thomas DeCoud FS California
5 138 Robert James MLB Arizona State
5 154 Kroy Biermann DE Montana
6 172 Thomas Brown RB Georgia
7 212 Wilrey Fontenot CB Arizona
7 232 Keith Zinger TE Louisiana State
2007 - Atlanta Falcons
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 8 Jamaal Anderson DE Arkansas
2 39 Justin Blalock G Texas
2 41 Chris Houston CB Arkansas
3 75 Laurent Robinson WR Illinois State
4 109 Stephen Nicholas LB South Florida
4 133 Martrez Milner TE Georgia
6 185 Trey Lewis DT Washburn
6 194 David Irons CB Auburn
6 198 Doug Datish C Ohio State
6 203 Daren Stone DB Maine
7 244 Jason Snelling RB Virginia

Our top 20 picks wouldn't come close to their top 20 picks.

How do you define success ?

I define it as Super Bowl 44

TheOak · 02-21-2013, 06:09 AM

All of this unreliability in the draft is precisely why I gave been saying we can't draft our way out of a bad defense.

xan · 02-21-2013, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

All of this unreliability in the draft is precisely why I gave been saying we can't draft our way out of a bad defense.

I disagree. You can draft your way out of a bad defense, as long as your time horizon is FOREVER.

Problem with defenders is that they actually have to be smart enough to read the offense, intuitive enough to know how to adjust, and have the communication skills to get the other 10 guys on the same page.

Good defenses layer in a scheme that fits the abilities of the players and a commitment to tackling.

I don't think we've had the scheme, the players, or the commitment to have any kind of quality defense. And further, we can change the scheme all we want, (and have!) but the fact of the matter is that transforming this defense will require at least 15 new players. Not happening in 3 drafts, much less 1. With our available budget, the likelihood of any quality improvement for 2013 is low.

If this defense can allow just 10% fewer yards and 5% fewer points, I'd buy the online beer for the first round of the playoffs.

xan · 02-21-2013, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by xan

If this defense can allow just 10% fewer yards and 5% fewer points, I'd buy the online beer for the first round of the playoffs.

Before all you jump on that bet, I want to hedge it by stipulating that Brees has to stop throwing pics at an unsustainable rate. I don't care how good your defense is, if they're only given an average of a 1:30 minute break 40% of the time, they are going to suck.

alleycat_126 · 02-21-2013, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

How do you define success ?

I define it as Super Bowl 44

Preach!!!!

pherein · 02-21-2013, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

Yes, they knocked it out of the park in 2006, no doubt.

But since then have they really drafted all that well? Other than Nicks and Graham, and to a lesser extent Ingram and Jordan, it doesn't look so good.

I'm not including 2012 since its too early to judge.

2011 1 1 24 24 Cameron Jordan DE California
2011 2 1 28 28 Mark Ingram RB Alabama
2011 3 3 8 72 Martez Wilson LB Illinois
2011 4 3 24 88 Johnny Patrick DB Louisville
2011 5 7 23 226 Greg Romeus DE Pittsburgh
2011 6 7 40 243 Nate Bussey LB Illinois
2010 1 1 32 32 Patrick Robinson DB Florida State
2010 2 2 32 64 Charles Brown T USC
2010 3 3 31 95 Jimmy Graham TE Miami (FL)
2010 4 4 25 123 Al Woods DT Louisiana State
2010 5 5 27 158 Matt Tennant C Boston College
2010 6 7 32 239 Sean Canfield QB Oregon State
2009 1 1 14 14 Malcolm Jenkins DB Ohio State
2009 2 4 16 116 Chip Vaughn DB Wake Forest
2009 3 4 18 118 Stanley Arnoux LB Wake Forest
2009 4 5 28 164 Thomas Morstead P Southern Methodist
2008 1 1 7 7 Sedrick Ellis DT USC
2008 2 2 9 40 Tracy Porter DB Indiana
2008 3 5 9 144 DeMario Pressley DT North Carolina State
2008 4 5 29 164 Carl Nicks T Nebraska
2008 5 6 12 178 Taylor Mehlhaff K Wisconsin
2008 6 7 30 237 Adrian Arrington WR Michigan
2007 1 1 27 27 Robert Meachem WR Tennessee
2007 2 3 2 66 Usama Young DB Kent State
2007 3 3 25 88 Andy Alleman G Akron
2007 4 4 8 107 Antonio Pittman RB Ohio State
2007 5 4 26 125 Jermon Bushrod T Towson
2007 6 5 8 145 David Jones DB Wingate
2007 7 7 10 220 Marvin Mitchell LB Tennessee
I smell suck..

I just dont understand some things. For one Meachem wasnt a bust in the end. Neither was Bushrod or Arrington. Their not proballers but they dont completely suck.
And if your going to take the draft into accout, you have to take the entire draft. You cant just pick and choose what you might think to be the bad side.

What about Lance Moore, P. Thomas ? I mean the undrafted are just as important as the draft. Just a thought.

Danno · 02-21-2013, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by pherein

I just dont understand some things. For one Meachem wasnt a bust in the end. Neither was Bushrod or Arrington. Their not proballers but they donrt completely suck.
And if your going to take the draft into accout, you have to take the entire draft. You cant just pick and choose what you might think to be the bad side.

What about Lance Moore, P. Thomas ? I mean the undrafted are just as important as the draft. Just a thought.

True, I usually do consider UDFA as part of the draft process. I was reponding to a claim that we do much better in later rounds, so I looked and saw that we haven't.

I'm not sure I'd consider AA as a success. He never really got there.

I should have included Bushrod.

Meachem was OK. I just highlited the obvious winners we drafted.

Either way, that list looks a lot worse than I thought it would when I pulled it up.

Seer1 · 02-21-2013, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by xan

Before all you jump on that bet, I want to hedge it by stipulating that Brees has to stop throwing pics at an unsustainable rate. I don't care how good your defense is, if they're only given an average of a 1:30 minute break 40% of the time, they are going to suck.

Or you can be like me and blame many of Drew's ints on the defense. He knew the defense was gong to give up three scores in the fourth quarter and he simply tried too hard to compensate. I've been watching that boy play since he was at Purdue and that is the one type of pressure he's never been able to handle well.

pherein · 02-21-2013, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

True, I usually do consider UDFA as part of the draft process. I was reponding to a claim that we do much better in later rounds, so I looked and saw that we haven't.

I'm not sure I'd consider AA as a success. He never really got there.

I should have included Bushrod.

Meachem was OK. I just highlited the obvious winners we drafted.

Either way, that list looks a lot worse than I thought it would when I pulled it up.

Yeah, I think you have to look at UDFA, because we draft based on BPA, and know the undrafted that will be available, but target them quickly, call them the next day, and get them in here to try out. Most team would kill for a Moore or Thomas, and they have done a good job keeping them inhouse.

AA is ok. When hes on the field he does great. Problem is keeping him on the field, lol, but the talent is their.

We also have a couple 2011 drafts like Wilson and Romeus that are still in development. So its hard to pin them as a bust just yet. LOL, it took forever to get Meachum to catch the ball, but he eventually did.

Though, I completely admit our defensive drafts have been pretty bad or below average.

02-20-2013, 09:21 PM	#71
RaginCajun83 Hou Saints Fan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 5,050	Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation? Well look a the track record of those so called "scouts" back then, some of those drafts look like they were throwing darts to make selections

02-21-2013, 06:05 AM	#72
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	Originally Posted by Danno Are you kidding? Look at their successes... 1 6 Julio Jones WR Alabama 3 91 Akeem Dent LB Georgia 5 145 Jacquizz Rodgers RB Oregon State 6 192 Matt Bosher P Miami (Fla.)7 210 Andrew Jackson G Fresno State 7 230 Cliff Matthews DE South Carolina 2010 - Atlanta Falcons RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL 1 19 Sean Weatherspoon OLB Missouri 3 83 Corey Peters DT Kentucky 3 98 Mike Johnson G Alabama 4 117 Joe Hawley C Nevada-Las Vegas 5 135 Dominique Franks DB Oklahoma 5 165 Kerry Meier WR Kansas 6 171 Shann Schillinger DB Montana 2009 - Atlanta Falcons RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL 1 24 Peria Jerry DT Mississippi 2 55 William Moore DB Missouri 3 90 Chris Owens DB San Jose State 4 125 Lawrence Sidbury DE Richmond 5 138 William Middleton DB Furman 5 156 Garrett Reynolds T North Carolina 6 176 Spencer Adkins LB Miami (Fla.) 7 210 Vance Walker DT Georgia Tech 2008 - Atlanta Falcons RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL 1 3 Matt Ryan QB Boston College 1 21 Sam Baker T USC 2 37 Curtis Lofton MLB Oklahoma 3 68 Chevis Jackson CB Louisiana State 3 84 Harry Douglas WR Louisville 3 98 Thomas DeCoud FS California 5 138 Robert James MLB Arizona State 5 154 Kroy Biermann DE Montana 6 172 Thomas Brown RB Georgia 7 212 Wilrey Fontenot CB Arizona 7 232 Keith Zinger TE Louisiana State 2007 - Atlanta Falcons RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL 1 8 Jamaal Anderson DE Arkansas 2 39 Justin Blalock G Texas 2 41 Chris Houston CB Arkansas 3 75 Laurent Robinson WR Illinois State 4 109 Stephen Nicholas LB South Florida 4 133 Martrez Milner TE Georgia 6 185 Trey Lewis DT Washburn 6 194 David Irons CB Auburn 6 198 Doug Datish C Ohio State 6 203 Daren Stone DB Maine 7 244 Jason Snelling RB Virginia Our top 20 picks wouldn't come close to their top 20 picks. How do you define success ? I define it as Super Bowl 44

02-21-2013, 08:27 AM	#74
xan Professor Crab and Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Princeton Posts: 3,371 Blog Entries: 34	Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation? Originally Posted by TheOak All of this unreliability in the draft is precisely why I gave been saying we can't draft our way out of a bad defense. I disagree. You can draft your way out of a bad defense, as long as your time horizon is FOREVER. Problem with defenders is that they actually have to be smart enough to read the offense, intuitive enough to know how to adjust, and have the communication skills to get the other 10 guys on the same page. Good defenses layer in a scheme that fits the abilities of the players and a commitment to tackling. I don't think we've had the scheme, the players, or the commitment to have any kind of quality defense. And further, we can change the scheme all we want, (and have!) but the fact of the matter is that transforming this defense will require at least 15 new players. Not happening in 3 drafts, much less 1. With our available budget, the likelihood of any quality improvement for 2013 is low. If this defense can allow just 10% fewer yards and 5% fewer points, I'd buy the online beer for the first round of the playoffs.
	Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger." Hobbes: "Common lament."

02-21-2013, 08:31 AM	#75
xan Professor Crab and Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Princeton Posts: 3,371 Blog Entries: 34	Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation? Originally Posted by xan If this defense can allow just 10% fewer yards and 5% fewer points, I'd buy the online beer for the first round of the playoffs. Before all you jump on that bet, I want to hedge it by stipulating that Brees has to stop throwing pics at an unsustainable rate. I don't care how good your defense is, if they're only given an average of a 1:30 minute break 40% of the time, they are going to suck. papz and K Major like this.

02-21-2013, 08:31 AM	#76
alleycat_126 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Katy, Tx a suburb of Houston Posts: 2,089	Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation? Originally Posted by TheOak How do you define success ? I define it as Super Bowl 44 Preach!!!!

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02-21-2013, 06:09 AM	#73
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	All of this unreliability in the draft is precisely why I gave been saying we can't draft our way out of a bad defense.

02-21-2013, 12:20 PM	#77
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation? Originally Posted by Danno Yes, they knocked it out of the park in 2006, no doubt. But since then have they really drafted all that well? Other than Nicks and Graham, and to a lesser extent Ingram and Jordan, it doesn't look so good. I'm not including 2012 since its too early to judge. 2011 1 1 24 24 Cameron Jordan DE California 2011 2 1 28 28 Mark Ingram RB Alabama 2011 3 3 8 72 Martez Wilson LB Illinois 2011 4 3 24 88 Johnny Patrick DB Louisville 2011 5 7 23 226 Greg Romeus DE Pittsburgh 2011 6 7 40 243 Nate Bussey LB Illinois 2010 1 1 32 32 Patrick Robinson DB Florida State 2010 2 2 32 64 Charles Brown T USC 2010 3 3 31 95 Jimmy Graham TE Miami (FL) 2010 4 4 25 123 Al Woods DT Louisiana State 2010 5 5 27 158 Matt Tennant C Boston College 2010 6 7 32 239 Sean Canfield QB Oregon State 2009 1 1 14 14 Malcolm Jenkins DB Ohio State 2009 2 4 16 116 Chip Vaughn DB Wake Forest 2009 3 4 18 118 Stanley Arnoux LB Wake Forest 2009 4 5 28 164 Thomas Morstead P Southern Methodist 2008 1 1 7 7 Sedrick Ellis DT USC 2008 2 2 9 40 Tracy Porter DB Indiana 2008 3 5 9 144 DeMario Pressley DT North Carolina State 2008 4 5 29 164 Carl Nicks T Nebraska 2008 5 6 12 178 Taylor Mehlhaff K Wisconsin 2008 6 7 30 237 Adrian Arrington WR Michigan 2007 1 1 27 27 Robert Meachem WR Tennessee 2007 2 3 2 66 Usama Young DB Kent State 2007 3 3 25 88 Andy Alleman G Akron 2007 4 4 8 107 Antonio Pittman RB Ohio State 2007 5 4 26 125 Jermon Bushrod T Towson 2007 6 5 8 145 David Jones DB Wingate 2007 7 7 10 220 Marvin Mitchell LB Tennessee I smell suck.. I just dont understand some things. For one Meachem wasnt a bust in the end. Neither was Bushrod or Arrington. Their not proballers but they dont completely suck. And if your going to take the draft into accout, you have to take the entire draft. You cant just pick and choose what you might think to be the bad side. What about Lance Moore, P. Thomas ? I mean the undrafted are just as important as the draft. Just a thought.
	Last edited by pherein; 02-21-2013 at 12:35 PM..

02-21-2013, 12:28 PM	#78
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,723	Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation? Originally Posted by pherein I just dont understand some things. For one Meachem wasnt a bust in the end. Neither was Bushrod or Arrington. Their not proballers but they donrt completely suck. And if your going to take the draft into accout, you have to take the entire draft. You cant just pick and choose what you might think to be the bad side. What about Lance Moore, P. Thomas ? I mean the undrafted are just as important as the draft. Just a thought. True, I usually do consider UDFA as part of the draft process. I was reponding to a claim that we do much better in later rounds, so I looked and saw that we haven't. I'm not sure I'd consider AA as a success. He never really got there. I should have included Bushrod. Meachem was OK. I just highlited the obvious winners we drafted. Either way, that list looks a lot worse than I thought it would when I pulled it up.

02-21-2013, 12:41 PM	#79
Seer1 Site Donor Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Bayou Bayfield CO Posts: 4,722	Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation? Originally Posted by xan Before all you jump on that bet, I want to hedge it by stipulating that Brees has to stop throwing pics at an unsustainable rate. I don't care how good your defense is, if they're only given an average of a 1:30 minute break 40% of the time, they are going to suck. Or you can be like me and blame many of Drew's ints on the defense. He knew the defense was gong to give up three scores in the fourth quarter and he simply tried too hard to compensate. I've been watching that boy play since he was at Purdue and that is the one type of pressure he's never been able to handle well.

02-21-2013, 12:48 PM	#80
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation? Originally Posted by Danno True, I usually do consider UDFA as part of the draft process. I was reponding to a claim that we do much better in later rounds, so I looked and saw that we haven't. I'm not sure I'd consider AA as a success. He never really got there. I should have included Bushrod. Meachem was OK. I just highlited the obvious winners we drafted. Either way, that list looks a lot worse than I thought it would when I pulled it up. Yeah, I think you have to look at UDFA, because we draft based on BPA, and know the undrafted that will be available, but target them quickly, call them the next day, and get them in here to try out. Most team would kill for a Moore or Thomas, and they have done a good job keeping them inhouse. AA is ok. When hes on the field he does great. Problem is keeping him on the field, lol, but the talent is their. We also have a couple 2011 drafts like Wilson and Romeus that are still in development. So its hard to pin them as a bust just yet. LOL, it took forever to get Meachum to catch the ball, but he eventually did. Though, I completely admit our defensive drafts have been pretty bad or below average.
	Saints proved that pigs could fly in 2009. Now its time for another miracle SuperBowl and go where no pig has gone before.

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