Ingram - Saints Relationship

Jack Vegas · 10-30-2014, 10:55 PM

Disagree with the assertion that our running backs are all different. They're not that different, they've just been pigeonholed into their roles. We've seen PT run big gainers up the middle how many times over his career. Robinson and Ingram look a lot different physically but basically have the same kind of game.

The RBBC works. It gives you depth and extends careers. Our problem is SP has too many tendencies which have revealed themselves over a number of years. Hopefully this situation right now will make Payton realize how much he has misused all of these RB's.

blackangold · 10-30-2014, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas

Disagree with the assertion that our running backs are all different. They're not that different, they've just been pigeonholed into their roles. We've seen PT run big gainers up the middle how many times over his career. Robinson and Ingram look a lot different physically but basically have the same kind of game.

The RBBC works. It gives you depth and extends careers. Our problem is SP has too many tendencies which have revealed themselves over a number of years. Hopefully this situation right now will make Payton realize how much he has misused all of these RB's.

Name a team that is successful with the RBBC excluding us.

RBs need to get a feel for the game. Having 2 RBs is good to keep both fresh but we use 4 and they all do different things. PT is the only one that is actually used in every facet of the game. Thats not to say these guys can't do it all, but if your only using them for certain things then why does it matter.

Jack Vegas · 10-31-2014, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by blackangold

Name a team that is successful with the RBBC excluding us.

Carolina was very successful with Williams/Stewart/Tolbert for several years until they got old and injury prone. Bengals are doing well right now with Bernard and Hill. Patriots get a ton of production out of Ridley/Vereen and whoever else they plug in there. Colts are getting a lot out of Bradshaw/Richardson/Herron. Browns did well with Tate/West/Crowell until their o-line got messed up. Etc.

And you might notice that pretty much every big time college program plays 3 and 4 guys. In fact I would say the number of NFL teams which does not regularly use at least a two-back rotation is very small. and many are using 3 these days.

We take it to the extreme with 4, but really if you think about it the Cadet/Sproles/Bush spot in the rotation really isn't a running back, it's more a receiver position.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching Ingram run. I just don't want him getting 30 carries every game. Haslett ran Deuce into the ground with that crap and probably took 4-5 years off his career. If SP had done the same thing with, say, PT, he'd probably be washed up by now too.

blackangold · 10-31-2014, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas

Carolina was very successful with Williams/Stewart/Tolbert for several years until they got old and injury prone. Bengals are doing well right now with Bernard and Hill. Patriots get a ton of production out of Ridley/Vereen and whoever else they plug in there. Colts are getting a lot out of Bradshaw/Richardson/Herron. Browns did well with Tate/West/Crowell until their o-line got messed up. Etc.

And you might notice that pretty much every big time college program plays 3 and 4 guys. In fact I would say the number of NFL teams which does not regularly use at least a two-back rotation is very small. and many are using 3 these days.

We take it to the extreme with 4, but really if you think about it the Cadet/Sproles/Bush spot in the rotation really isn't a running back, it's more a receiver position.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching Ingram run. I just don't want him getting 30 carries every game. Haslett ran Deuce into the ground with that crap and probably took 4-5 years off his career. If SP had done the same thing with, say, PT, he'd probably be washed up by now too.

So the only current examples are ranked in the bottom of the league...

dam1953 · 10-31-2014, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas

Carolina ..........If SP had done the same thing with, say, PT, he'd probably be washed up by now too.

My point, which really wasn't clear, was that it's not how many RBs we have or the number of touches they each get. I was that SP seemed to have player packages for situations and specific plays and play calling was getting predictable. Yes, if Brees has plenty of time or the O line blows the D off the ball, then it doesn't matter, but the job gets easier if the D is confused.

With KR and PT injured SP was forced to use Ingram in situations and play calls where he typically wouldn't. This makes our offense less predicable and much more dangerous.

Cruize · 10-31-2014, 02:13 AM

Somebody will pay him more than the Saints. It is what it is. I hope it's a HUGE contract after leading the Saints to another Super Bowl win.

burningmetal · 10-31-2014, 03:51 AM

I'm glad to see Ingram running better, but to be honest I think it says more about what we need to do philosophy wise than it does about Ingram, himself. I've heard over and over from people who have defended him when he was struggling who said "he just needs more carries to get going". There is no statistic to support that statement. He runs the same early as he does late. Whether it be a good or bad performance, he pretty much goes as the line goes.

I will give him due credit for being able to run through holes more decisively now than he ever has before, as he was notorious for running blind and being too hesitant before. But when this line plays as it has recently, it doesn't matter who's back there at RB. If you give Khiry 30 carries, he's gonna run wild too. But he's hurt, and Pierre is hurt, and so Ingram is getting his chance. Good for him that he's, so far, making the most of it.

The bottom line here, in my opinion, is that if we're having this much success as a team, by running more and controlling the clock, then we should not change a thing. Regardless of who our back is, just keep running and maintain this balance.

hagan714 · 10-31-2014, 07:22 AM

our system always puzzled me. i understand down situations and all but the swapping by plays vs series really never made sense to me.

what happened to going with the hot hand?

if mark can ever shake the injury bug hmmm. with his style of running that might be hard to do.

many have said he need to get in a grove for years now

dizzle88 · 10-31-2014, 08:23 AM

Like I mentioned a couple days ago, Ingram wears down defenses

There was a point in the game where he was only getting gains of 3 or 4 yards, but credit SP for sticking to the run, as soon as gap opened up Ingram exploited it for a bigger gain

Ingram and the O line really seem to be on their game.

Danno · 10-31-2014, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

Like I mentioned a couple days ago, Ingram wears down defenses

There was a point in the game where he was only getting gains of 3 or 4 yards, but credit SP for sticking to the run, as soon as gap opened up Ingram exploited it for a bigger gain

Ingram and the O line really seem to be on their game.

And thats probably why Ingram didn't want to come out. He could tell they were wearing down and he was about to bust a big one.

10-30-2014, 10:55 PM	#1
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Ingram - Saints Relationship Disagree with the assertion that our running backs are all different. They're not that different, they've just been pigeonholed into their roles. We've seen PT run big gainers up the middle how many times over his career. Robinson and Ingram look a lot different physically but basically have the same kind of game. The RBBC works. It gives you depth and extends careers. Our problem is SP has too many tendencies which have revealed themselves over a number of years. Hopefully this situation right now will make Payton realize how much he has misused all of these RB's.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

10-30-2014, 11:20 PM	#2
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Re: Ingram - Saints Relationship Originally Posted by Jack Vegas Disagree with the assertion that our running backs are all different. They're not that different, they've just been pigeonholed into their roles. We've seen PT run big gainers up the middle how many times over his career. Robinson and Ingram look a lot different physically but basically have the same kind of game. The RBBC works. It gives you depth and extends careers. Our problem is SP has too many tendencies which have revealed themselves over a number of years. Hopefully this situation right now will make Payton realize how much he has misused all of these RB's. Name a team that is successful with the RBBC excluding us. RBs need to get a feel for the game. Having 2 RBs is good to keep both fresh but we use 4 and they all do different things. PT is the only one that is actually used in every facet of the game. Thats not to say these guys can't do it all, but if your only using them for certain things then why does it matter.

10-31-2014, 01:18 AM	#3
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: Ingram - Saints Relationship Originally Posted by blackangold Name a team that is successful with the RBBC excluding us. Carolina was very successful with Williams/Stewart/Tolbert for several years until they got old and injury prone. Bengals are doing well right now with Bernard and Hill. Patriots get a ton of production out of Ridley/Vereen and whoever else they plug in there. Colts are getting a lot out of Bradshaw/Richardson/Herron. Browns did well with Tate/West/Crowell until their o-line got messed up. Etc. And you might notice that pretty much every big time college program plays 3 and 4 guys. In fact I would say the number of NFL teams which does not regularly use at least a two-back rotation is very small. and many are using 3 these days. We take it to the extreme with 4, but really if you think about it the Cadet/Sproles/Bush spot in the rotation really isn't a running back, it's more a receiver position. Don't get me wrong, I love watching Ingram run. I just don't want him getting 30 carries every game. Haslett ran Deuce into the ground with that crap and probably took 4-5 years off his career. If SP had done the same thing with, say, PT, he'd probably be washed up by now too.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

10-31-2014, 12:45 PM	#4
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Re: Ingram - Saints Relationship Originally Posted by Jack Vegas Carolina was very successful with Williams/Stewart/Tolbert for several years until they got old and injury prone. Bengals are doing well right now with Bernard and Hill. Patriots get a ton of production out of Ridley/Vereen and whoever else they plug in there. Colts are getting a lot out of Bradshaw/Richardson/Herron. Browns did well with Tate/West/Crowell until their o-line got messed up. Etc. And you might notice that pretty much every big time college program plays 3 and 4 guys. In fact I would say the number of NFL teams which does not regularly use at least a two-back rotation is very small. and many are using 3 these days. We take it to the extreme with 4, but really if you think about it the Cadet/Sproles/Bush spot in the rotation really isn't a running back, it's more a receiver position. Don't get me wrong, I love watching Ingram run. I just don't want him getting 30 carries every game. Haslett ran Deuce into the ground with that crap and probably took 4-5 years off his career. If SP had done the same thing with, say, PT, he'd probably be washed up by now too. So the only current examples are ranked in the bottom of the league... dam1953 likes this.

10-31-2014, 01:05 PM	#5
dam1953 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 4,645	Re: Ingram - Saints Relationship Originally Posted by Jack Vegas Carolina ..........If SP had done the same thing with, say, PT, he'd probably be washed up by now too. My point, which really wasn't clear, was that it's not how many RBs we have or the number of touches they each get. I was that SP seemed to have player packages for situations and specific plays and play calling was getting predictable. Yes, if Brees has plenty of time or the O line blows the D off the ball, then it doesn't matter, but the job gets easier if the D is confused. With KR and PT injured SP was forced to use Ingram in situations and play calls where he typically wouldn't. This makes our offense less predicable and much more dangerous. SASaintsfan likes this.
	”It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.” Charles Darwin

10-31-2014, 02:13 AM	#6
Cruize 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,467	Re: Ingram - Saints Relationship Somebody will pay him more than the Saints. It is what it is. I hope it's a HUGE contract after leading the Saints to another Super Bowl win. arsaint and Saintaintso like this.
Cruize 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,467

10-31-2014, 03:51 AM	#7
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Ingram - Saints Relationship I'm glad to see Ingram running better, but to be honest I think it says more about what we need to do philosophy wise than it does about Ingram, himself. I've heard over and over from people who have defended him when he was struggling who said "he just needs more carries to get going". There is no statistic to support that statement. He runs the same early as he does late. Whether it be a good or bad performance, he pretty much goes as the line goes. I will give him due credit for being able to run through holes more decisively now than he ever has before, as he was notorious for running blind and being too hesitant before. But when this line plays as it has recently, it doesn't matter who's back there at RB. If you give Khiry 30 carries, he's gonna run wild too. But he's hurt, and Pierre is hurt, and so Ingram is getting his chance. Good for him that he's, so far, making the most of it. The bottom line here, in my opinion, is that if we're having this much success as a team, by running more and controlling the clock, then we should not change a thing. Regardless of who our back is, just keep running and maintain this balance.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

10-31-2014, 07:22 AM	#8
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: Ingram - Saints Relationship our system always puzzled me. i understand down situations and all but the swapping by plays vs series really never made sense to me. what happened to going with the hot hand? if mark can ever shake the injury bug hmmm. with his style of running that might be hard to do. many have said he need to get in a grove for years now

10-31-2014, 08:23 AM	#9
dizzle88 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 11,546	Re: Ingram - Saints Relationship Like I mentioned a couple days ago, Ingram wears down defenses There was a point in the game where he was only getting gains of 3 or 4 yards, but credit SP for sticking to the run, as soon as gap opened up Ingram exploited it for a bigger gain Ingram and the O line really seem to be on their game. Danno, halloween 65 and K Major like this.

10-31-2014, 08:41 AM	#10
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,758	Re: Ingram - Saints Relationship Originally Posted by dizzle88 Like I mentioned a couple days ago, Ingram wears down defenses There was a point in the game where he was only getting gains of 3 or 4 yards, but credit SP for sticking to the run, as soon as gap opened up Ingram exploited it for a bigger gain Ingram and the O line really seem to be on their game. And thats probably why Ingram didn't want to come out. He could tell they were wearing down and he was about to bust a big one. dizzle88 and halloween 65 like this.

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