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LKelley67 · 02-10-2005, 09:18 PM

some kinda common ground might be found going beyond the phrase \"does he want to win?\" more is, how badly does he want to win? indulge me while i draw a baseball example where there is no real cap. there is tremendous disparity in team salaries in mlb. everyone knows how steinbrenner opens the checkbook in efforts to win. what isn\'t as widely know that there are many owners with far more net worth than he. one of the richest, pohland of the twins, has been among the stingiest tightwads. the nfl has a cap but coaches salaries are going through the roof. huizenga demonstrated he was willing to pay whatever necessary to attain what he considered his best chance at winning (saban). daniel snyder spent somewhat not so wisely for players but there was no doubt that he wanted that. washington, miami, new england, and detroit own their stadiums. this is a growing trend- unbelieveable tax write off, rake in all of the profits of everything else that goes on there, acquire an asset which enhances the value of the franchise, etc. the jets are currently offering 600mil toward a new manhattan stadium and sd owner spanos is offering 400mil to a new facility. why? it is sound business to invest in yourself if you are committed. vikings owner mccomb is a billionaire but has refused to do that. why? he is ready to sell soon. not a bad deal either, buying the vikes for 250mil in 1998 and doubling your money in 7 years. i only see signs of the used car dealer approach in nawlins. 11mil last year that could have been spent towards the missing linebacker or db that was left on the table. no upper tier free agents signed (after leaving mueller said signing bonuses could not exceed 10mil). squeezing such football fanatic fans in a state that is legitimately economically strapped. if not haslett then how can a venturi remain, no matter what contract payoff? chow may be a flop but the 800-900k shows commitment to winning.

benson wants to win but he shown only inconsistency at best in choosing who and how the show is run. with an current regime of unsatisfactory results not being overhauled or replaced i question whether he has the passion for it anymore (remember he started at zero in \'85). it looks more like posturing for the endgame of his life to me.

ScottyRo · 02-10-2005, 09:57 PM

I think it\'s plainly evident Benson values the almighty dollar more than winning. Not that he doesn\'t want to win - he just doesn\'t want to pay for the extras that might be required to win.

But, I also don\'t know that he has learned how to win. As far as I know he didn\'t give a hoot about football until he bought the Saints. He was smart enought then to bring in a reputable football guy to run things (Finks). Just look at what happened.

Flash forward and you see a guy who had been in the league for several years and, ala Jerry Jones, decides he doesn\'t need reputable football guys so he promotes Kuhurich to take over for Finks. We have had one (maybe two if my memory has slipped) playoff trip since then!

Benson THINKS he knows about football and running a football organization. The problem is that it is obvious he doesn\'t.

R.I.P. Finks. We miss you badly.

saintswhodi · 02-10-2005, 11:28 PM

Nice points Kelley and Scotty. Nice points.

JKool · 02-11-2005, 03:07 AM

I get what you are saying Kool and that\'s right on. On a position such as what someone\'s desires are, we only have opinion unless they tell us otherwise. But in this instance, since this whole argument is based on opinion, I felt free to allow anyone to argue whatever position they felt whether it be opinion or not cause there is no way we can KNOW, in this instance. Otherwise, you know I keep my facts tight.

[Edited on 11/2/2005 by JKool]

JKool · 02-11-2005, 10:37 AM

Did we have one of the highest payrolls two years ago?

I see the points, but I\'m still inclined to say that it isn\'t obvioius from the data. LK, I like your idea, but don\'t see that it gets past the problems I raised for the earlier view - just substitute \"doesn\'t REALLY want to win too much\" for \"doesn\'t want to win\" in my theories. The weaker conclusion that you offer may be easier to evidence, but I can\'t decide just yet.

Scotty, what did you think of my earlier argument? Your first statement seems to go against it, but everything else you say seems to support it.

ScottyRo · 02-11-2005, 12:00 PM

I think it\'s plainly evident Benson values the almighty dollar more than winning. Not that he doesn\'t want to win - he just doesn\'t want to pay for the extras that might be required to win.

JK, if I understand your point, simply stated, you believe Benson cares about winning. I can agree to that tempered by his love for money which is what I was trying to say in the section where I quoted myself.

In trying to win, Benson would rather find the next Joe Horn rather than bring in R. Moss, for example. For the past couple of years it seemed that we always had plenty of cap room and did nothing with it or very little. It is my opinion that Benson is making the team operate on a lower cap so he can pocket the difference.

The reason I can say that Benson wants to win is because to say otherwise wouldn\'t make sense. Certainly, his committement to winning 12 games a year is questionable. If he can get 10 wins out of a certain amount of money, that\'d be better for him than getting 12 wins while spending 10% more where the additional 10% meant that he didn\'t pocket any cash.

Otherwise, someone said something along the lines of wishing for a D. Snyder type to buy the team making a reference to a more passionate owner. I don\'t see Snyder as being passionate about football at all. He simply wants to buy the prom queen so he can brag to his buddies. Not only is that distasteful to me, but it hasn\'t worked for him either.

saintswhodi · 02-11-2005, 12:07 PM

I am not particularly against the Dan Snyder \"type\" just that they have a more tempered method than spending willy nilly for any player with some sort of name. I want an owner willing to spend, which we all agree is not Benson. It\'s interestign about the highest payroll thing. Could that be due to some contracts going up? I kow last year we paid Joe like $600,000, but the year before it was like 4 or 5 mil. Are there more contracts like that on the team? That would explain the high payroll cause the money WAS NOT spent on any big time free agents.

ScottyRo · 02-11-2005, 12:19 PM

I know it was said at one point that the Saints had the highest staffing payroll(coaches, managers and such), but I don\'t recall them having near the highest player payroll. Near the end of the Ditka years and maybe a couple thereafter, I recall us being about 3 mil over the cap at this point in the year, but that wasn\'t the highest of any team by far.

saintswhodi · 02-11-2005, 12:25 PM

I don\'t know where that stat came from, but I KNOW it wasn\'t because of spending. If you have a couple of guys under contract and their salaries spike in the same year, that will drive up any team\'s payroll.

JKool · 02-11-2005, 05:45 PM

Having guys who get paid a lot of money (say Horn for example) does represent spending. What else could it represent? We spent money on Horn; that is why his contract was so high.

I also recall having one of the highest payrolls a few years back. I think it was Danno who pointed it out. Perhaps he could confirm this for us.

JK, if I understand your point, simply stated, you believe Benson cares about winning.

I thought I was saying that there is no way to tell if he cares about winning or not. If I didn\'t say that, that is what I meant.

I see your point on Benson\'s mental state Scotty. I thought people were making a stronger claim - like, \"he doesn\'t want to win\". If I\'ve taken you correctly, you are suggesting that such a view is silly, since, of course, he wants to win SOME. He has lots of other desires, and sometimes those conflict with his wanting to win, but at no time does he simply NOT want to win. I think that is a both interesting and good point.

02-10-2005, 09:18 PM	#41
LKelley67 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: baton rouge Posts: 2,540	in case you missed it some kinda common ground might be found going beyond the phrase \"does he want to win?\" more is, how badly does he want to win? indulge me while i draw a baseball example where there is no real cap. there is tremendous disparity in team salaries in mlb. everyone knows how steinbrenner opens the checkbook in efforts to win. what isn\'t as widely know that there are many owners with far more net worth than he. one of the richest, pohland of the twins, has been among the stingiest tightwads. the nfl has a cap but coaches salaries are going through the roof. huizenga demonstrated he was willing to pay whatever necessary to attain what he considered his best chance at winning (saban). daniel snyder spent somewhat not so wisely for players but there was no doubt that he wanted that. washington, miami, new england, and detroit own their stadiums. this is a growing trend- unbelieveable tax write off, rake in all of the profits of everything else that goes on there, acquire an asset which enhances the value of the franchise, etc. the jets are currently offering 600mil toward a new manhattan stadium and sd owner spanos is offering 400mil to a new facility. why? it is sound business to invest in yourself if you are committed. vikings owner mccomb is a billionaire but has refused to do that. why? he is ready to sell soon. not a bad deal either, buying the vikes for 250mil in 1998 and doubling your money in 7 years. i only see signs of the used car dealer approach in nawlins. 11mil last year that could have been spent towards the missing linebacker or db that was left on the table. no upper tier free agents signed (after leaving mueller said signing bonuses could not exceed 10mil). squeezing such football fanatic fans in a state that is legitimately economically strapped. if not haslett then how can a venturi remain, no matter what contract payoff? chow may be a flop but the 800-900k shows commitment to winning. benson wants to win but he shown only inconsistency at best in choosing who and how the show is run. with an current regime of unsatisfactory results not being overhauled or replaced i question whether he has the passion for it anymore (remember he started at zero in \'85). it looks more like posturing for the endgame of his life to me.

02-10-2005, 09:57 PM	#42
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	in case you missed it I think it\'s plainly evident Benson values the almighty dollar more than winning. Not that he doesn\'t want to win - he just doesn\'t want to pay for the extras that might be required to win. But, I also don\'t know that he has learned how to win. As far as I know he didn\'t give a hoot about football until he bought the Saints. He was smart enought then to bring in a reputable football guy to run things (Finks). Just look at what happened. Flash forward and you see a guy who had been in the league for several years and, ala Jerry Jones, decides he doesn\'t need reputable football guys so he promotes Kuhurich to take over for Finks. We have had one (maybe two if my memory has slipped) playoff trip since then! Benson THINKS he knows about football and running a football organization. The problem is that it is obvious he doesn\'t. R.I.P. Finks. We miss you badly.

02-10-2005, 11:28 PM	#43
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	in case you missed it Nice points Kelley and Scotty. Nice points.

02-11-2005, 03:07 AM	#44
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	in case you missed it I get what you are saying Kool and that\'s right on. On a position such as what someone\'s desires are, we only have opinion unless they tell us otherwise. But in this instance, since this whole argument is based on opinion, I felt free to allow anyone to argue whatever position they felt whether it be opinion or not cause there is no way we can KNOW, in this instance. Otherwise, you know I keep my facts tight. [Edited on 11/2/2005 by JKool]

02-11-2005, 10:37 AM	#45
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	in case you missed it Did we have one of the highest payrolls two years ago? I see the points, but I\'m still inclined to say that it isn\'t obvioius from the data. LK, I like your idea, but don\'t see that it gets past the problems I raised for the earlier view - just substitute \"doesn\'t REALLY want to win too much\" for \"doesn\'t want to win\" in my theories. The weaker conclusion that you offer may be easier to evidence, but I can\'t decide just yet. Scotty, what did you think of my earlier argument? Your first statement seems to go against it, but everything else you say seems to support it.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

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02-11-2005, 12:00 PM	#46
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	in case you missed it I think it\'s plainly evident Benson values the almighty dollar more than winning. Not that he doesn\'t want to win - he just doesn\'t want to pay for the extras that might be required to win. JK, if I understand your point, simply stated, you believe Benson cares about winning. I can agree to that tempered by his love for money which is what I was trying to say in the section where I quoted myself. In trying to win, Benson would rather find the next Joe Horn rather than bring in R. Moss, for example. For the past couple of years it seemed that we always had plenty of cap room and did nothing with it or very little. It is my opinion that Benson is making the team operate on a lower cap so he can pocket the difference. The reason I can say that Benson wants to win is because to say otherwise wouldn\'t make sense. Certainly, his committement to winning 12 games a year is questionable. If he can get 10 wins out of a certain amount of money, that\'d be better for him than getting 12 wins while spending 10% more where the additional 10% meant that he didn\'t pocket any cash. Otherwise, someone said something along the lines of wishing for a D. Snyder type to buy the team making a reference to a more passionate owner. I don\'t see Snyder as being passionate about football at all. He simply wants to buy the prom queen so he can brag to his buddies. Not only is that distasteful to me, but it hasn\'t worked for him either.

02-11-2005, 12:07 PM	#47
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	in case you missed it I am not particularly against the Dan Snyder \"type\" just that they have a more tempered method than spending willy nilly for any player with some sort of name. I want an owner willing to spend, which we all agree is not Benson. It\'s interestign about the highest payroll thing. Could that be due to some contracts going up? I kow last year we paid Joe like $600,000, but the year before it was like 4 or 5 mil. Are there more contracts like that on the team? That would explain the high payroll cause the money WAS NOT spent on any big time free agents.

02-11-2005, 12:19 PM	#48
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	in case you missed it I know it was said at one point that the Saints had the highest staffing payroll(coaches, managers and such), but I don\'t recall them having near the highest player payroll. Near the end of the Ditka years and maybe a couple thereafter, I recall us being about 3 mil over the cap at this point in the year, but that wasn\'t the highest of any team by far.

02-11-2005, 12:25 PM	#49
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	in case you missed it I don\'t know where that stat came from, but I KNOW it wasn\'t because of spending. If you have a couple of guys under contract and their salaries spike in the same year, that will drive up any team\'s payroll.

02-11-2005, 05:45 PM	#50
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	in case you missed it Having guys who get paid a lot of money (say Horn for example) does represent spending. What else could it represent? We spent money on Horn; that is why his contract was so high. I also recall having one of the highest payrolls a few years back. I think it was Danno who pointed it out. Perhaps he could confirm this for us. JK, if I understand your point, simply stated, you believe Benson cares about winning. I thought I was saying that there is no way to tell if he cares about winning or not. If I didn\'t say that, that is what I meant. I see your point on Benson\'s mental state Scotty. I thought people were making a stronger claim - like, \"he doesn\'t want to win\". If I\'ve taken you correctly, you are suggesting that such a view is silly, since, of course, he wants to win SOME. He has lots of other desires, and sometimes those conflict with his wanting to win, but at no time does he simply NOT want to win. I think that is a both interesting and good point.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks