another i cant hepp it thread

saintfan · 02-17-2005, 03:35 PM

You need to drop this. There is no such person who thinks that

Amen! I\'m not trying to pull your chain here, but those of us that typically defend Brooks are regularly accused of failing to find fault in him. This, to a man, isn\'t the case. We simply see other issues that affect his performance, and when we bring ANY of \'em up we\'re bashed into oblivion. We all see where Brooks could improve...some of us see the same \"potential to improve\" team-wide.

We need a MUCH better O-Line
We need some dependable WR\'s (someone besides Horn)
We need a running game (our was ranked 27th)
We need a defense

etc, etc. Why is it that pointing out these things makes other seem to think we\'ve given\' the QB a pass?

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 03:45 PM

You need to drop this. There is no such person who thinks that.

Okay. I will disagree with that right off. You can not discuss Brooks\' faults with anyone who backs him without any factor that could contribute to his incompetence being brought up. Case in point,

We need a MUCH better O-Line
We need some dependable WR\'s (someone besides Horn)
We need a running game (our was ranked 27th)
We need a defense

Not to pick on saintfan, but we have had SOME form of excuse for AB for four years now. So if his faults can\'t be discussed WITHOUT bringing all these other things into it, he is being absolved from blame. I can easily say I don\'t have a better job cause Geroge Bush is president. But maybe I need to look at myself and say hey, it was me who decided not to finish college and start working cause I saw $$$. But it\'s EASIER to blame George than to blame myself, just like it seems it\'s EASIER for Brooks\' defenders to blame any and everyone besides Brooks. If I say, well I didn\'t finish college, but George Bush is still president so it\'s his fault I am held back, that is the SAME as saying Well, AB passes backwards to lineman and underhands to the opoosing team and leads the league in red zone turnovers, but that\'s cause of the line, and the receivers and the defense. HOW IS THAT PUTTING ANY BLAME ON AB? That\'s pointing out a fault and immediately making excuses for it. SO I disagree whole-heartedly with the noone on here does that cause it may not be outright love for AB, but if you are making excuses for terrible play as your only defense for him, as is the norm, then you aren\'t really blaming him, and what I said stands.

saintfan · 02-17-2005, 04:00 PM

Not to pick on saintfan, but we have had SOME form of excuse for AB for four years now.

Talk about a perfect example! These aren\'t \"excuses\" for Brooks. This is just how the Broos bashers view it. These are all very valid issues that have a LOT to do with how well a QB performs, and the Saints CLEARLY have issues in these areas, but rather than acknowledge ANY of them we are accused of making excuses for Brooks, which has never been true.

I acknowledge Brooks has made some boneheaded plays, and I can name many players you\'d consider to be his caliber (or more or less) that have made similar plays, but you\'d turn it in to me giving Brooks a pass rather than acknowledge it.

You wanna discuss his \"faults\", fine, but a lot of what you consider to be his fault and his fault alone I happen to think is at least partly combined with other factors -- not in all cases, but in most.

Example: Brooks takes too many steps away from the offensive line.

I would agree with this, but I am also ready to acknowledge that the offensive line quite often blocked poorly enough to make it necessary for Brooks to run away from it. I saw it a thousand times this past year if I saw it once, so I see both as issues where you seem to only see the one. You\'ll insist that Brooks inability to audible is the sole reason for the poor blocking, but I\'m of the opinion that our line just isn\'t very good, and I think most here would agree -- except that one guy (not you) that thinks our o-line typically excelled.

Let me ask you this Whodi -- Why was our line so bad this year? Is it because they just aren\'t very good, or is it Brooks fault? Are you gonna use Brooks as an excuse to defend our o-line?

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 04:02 PM

Just to make sure it\'s understood where I am coming from, we do know AB has the CHOICE NOT to throw backwards to a lineman right? And he has a choice NOT to throw under-handed to an opposing team\'s defenders right? These are things not brought on by the line or the receivers or the defense, but the CHOICES AB makes. So maybe if we look at the fact the mistakes he is more criticized for are ones he has an option NOT TO MAKE, then maybe we can get close to being on the same accord. And this is after FOUR YEARS as a starter. So if we have an AB disagreement and we discuss AB, and not all the excuses that can be made for AB, more members wouldn\'t feel like some are absolving him of all blame, and I KNOW I am not the first to say that this is the sentiment around here. I am late to the bandwagon on that one.

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 04:06 PM

Again saintfan, that is exactly what I am saying. NOONE who defends Brooks will talk about JUST BROOKS. I made a post while you were typign I guess about the CHOICES AB makes that he can choose not to make so I think that will answer your question, hopefully. Also

I acknowledge Brooks has made some boneheaded plays, and I can name many players you\'d consider to be his caliber (or more or less) that have made similar plays

Please show me that. And by similar let me be specific, leading the league in red zone turnovers(well, only one person can do that, and he is all ours), 20 yard backward passes to linemen, under-handed passes to LBs within the opposing team\'s red zone, and fumbles without being touched. Not trying to argue, but I really wanna see similar players and examples of that. Being that I watch Saints games in sportsbars with 4-5 51\" screens on all different games, I would like to know the examples you have seen that I haven\'t SIMILAR to what AB has done.

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 04:24 PM

Also saintfan, help me out here, why are statements like \"we need help on o=line, our receivers drop balls, and we need better defense\" made out to be definitive statements but if someone says \"Brooks makes bone-headed plays,\" it always comes with a but. But this this and this. Why don\'t Brooks defenders say, we have a bad o-line BUT our coaching is poor and the schemes were too complicated. Or our receivers drop balls BUT AB does not deliver the ball well at times and again coaches were poor. Or our defense was bad BUT it didn\'t help that our offense couldn\'t score in the first quarter and we had numerous turnovers and 3 and outs AND coaching was poor. How come only AB gets the benefit of excuse after exucse after excuse, when like someone else pointed out, his has been the only position not to change in the last 5 years and we are still mediocre? I think this lends to the feeling there are some who feel AB can do no wrong. Make excuses for the whole team if you are gonna make excuses, not the one person on the team just about EVERYONE, including people on other forums and the media, criticize.

saintfan · 02-17-2005, 04:26 PM

How many years has Brooks Led the league in Red Zone Turnovers? Should he improve on that number next year? I\'d hope so.

The pass to the lineman was an odd play to be sure, and who wouldn\'t blame Brooks for it? I\'d also like to know what the lineman was doing back there to begin with.

The underhanded pass was a boneheaded play...likely the result of Brooks trying to make something happen. This was his fault to be sure, but it\'s not like his in a league of his own because of it. Brett Farve ring a bell? Jake Delhomme throwing the ball up for grabs? This is something EVERY QB has done (and most of \'em still do from time to time), but you speak as tho he\'s the only one.

Are you trying to tell me you\'ve NEVER seen ANY OTHER QB make those or similar type plays? Even the \"great\" ones? Heck man, Brett Farve makes serveral a year.

saintfan · 02-17-2005, 04:29 PM

How come only AB gets the benefit of excuse after exucse after excuse,

Speaking for myself, I don\'t think I make \"excuses\"...I think you misunderstand where I\'m coming from, but to answer your question, I think it\'s likely because he\'s the only player on the team being held responsible for EVERYTHING wrong with the team.

One particular poster here once blamed Aaron Brooks for the inability of the defense to stop a screen! I understand you seem to think replacing Brooks should be a priority, and I disagree. Would you trade him for the Miami QB straight up? Probably...

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 04:34 PM

Not many QBs I WOULDN\'T trade him for straight up, but not Miami\'s. That\'s what makes this funnier. Their fans wouldn\'t trade a player they know is gonna leave anyway for our QB. Do you not see the irony in that?

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 04:35 PM

How many years has Brooks Led the league in Red Zone Turnovers? Should he improve on that number next year? I\'d hope so.

Also, last year he led the league in lost fumbles. I guess trading one for the other can be considered improvement somehow.

02-17-2005, 03:35 PM	#11
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	another i cant hepp it thread You need to drop this. There is no such person who thinks that Amen! I\'m not trying to pull your chain here, but those of us that typically defend Brooks are regularly accused of failing to find fault in him. This, to a man, isn\'t the case. We simply see other issues that affect his performance, and when we bring ANY of \'em up we\'re bashed into oblivion. We all see where Brooks could improve...some of us see the same \"potential to improve\" team-wide. We need a MUCH better O-Line We need some dependable WR\'s (someone besides Horn) We need a running game (our was ranked 27th) We need a defense etc, etc. Why is it that pointing out these things makes other seem to think we\'ve given\' the QB a pass?
	C'mon Man...

02-17-2005, 03:45 PM	#12
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread You need to drop this. There is no such person who thinks that. Okay. I will disagree with that right off. You can not discuss Brooks\' faults with anyone who backs him without any factor that could contribute to his incompetence being brought up. Case in point, We need a MUCH better O-Line We need some dependable WR\'s (someone besides Horn) We need a running game (our was ranked 27th) We need a defense Not to pick on saintfan, but we have had SOME form of excuse for AB for four years now. So if his faults can\'t be discussed WITHOUT bringing all these other things into it, he is being absolved from blame. I can easily say I don\'t have a better job cause Geroge Bush is president. But maybe I need to look at myself and say hey, it was me who decided not to finish college and start working cause I saw $$$. But it\'s EASIER to blame George than to blame myself, just like it seems it\'s EASIER for Brooks\' defenders to blame any and everyone besides Brooks. If I say, well I didn\'t finish college, but George Bush is still president so it\'s his fault I am held back, that is the SAME as saying Well, AB passes backwards to lineman and underhands to the opoosing team and leads the league in red zone turnovers, but that\'s cause of the line, and the receivers and the defense. HOW IS THAT PUTTING ANY BLAME ON AB? That\'s pointing out a fault and immediately making excuses for it. SO I disagree whole-heartedly with the noone on here does that cause it may not be outright love for AB, but if you are making excuses for terrible play as your only defense for him, as is the norm, then you aren\'t really blaming him, and what I said stands.

02-17-2005, 04:00 PM	#13
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	another i cant hepp it thread Not to pick on saintfan, but we have had SOME form of excuse for AB for four years now. Talk about a perfect example! These aren\'t \"excuses\" for Brooks. This is just how the Broos bashers view it. These are all very valid issues that have a LOT to do with how well a QB performs, and the Saints CLEARLY have issues in these areas, but rather than acknowledge ANY of them we are accused of making excuses for Brooks, which has never been true. I acknowledge Brooks has made some boneheaded plays, and I can name many players you\'d consider to be his caliber (or more or less) that have made similar plays, but you\'d turn it in to me giving Brooks a pass rather than acknowledge it. You wanna discuss his \"faults\", fine, but a lot of what you consider to be his fault and his fault alone I happen to think is at least partly combined with other factors -- not in all cases, but in most. Example: Brooks takes too many steps away from the offensive line. I would agree with this, but I am also ready to acknowledge that the offensive line quite often blocked poorly enough to make it necessary for Brooks to run away from it. I saw it a thousand times this past year if I saw it once, so I see both as issues where you seem to only see the one. You\'ll insist that Brooks inability to audible is the sole reason for the poor blocking, but I\'m of the opinion that our line just isn\'t very good, and I think most here would agree -- except that one guy (not you) that thinks our o-line typically excelled. Let me ask you this Whodi -- Why was our line so bad this year? Is it because they just aren\'t very good, or is it Brooks fault? Are you gonna use Brooks as an excuse to defend our o-line?
	C'mon Man...

02-17-2005, 04:02 PM	#14
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread Just to make sure it\'s understood where I am coming from, we do know AB has the CHOICE NOT to throw backwards to a lineman right? And he has a choice NOT to throw under-handed to an opposing team\'s defenders right? These are things not brought on by the line or the receivers or the defense, but the CHOICES AB makes. So maybe if we look at the fact the mistakes he is more criticized for are ones he has an option NOT TO MAKE, then maybe we can get close to being on the same accord. And this is after FOUR YEARS as a starter. So if we have an AB disagreement and we discuss AB, and not all the excuses that can be made for AB, more members wouldn\'t feel like some are absolving him of all blame, and I KNOW I am not the first to say that this is the sentiment around here. I am late to the bandwagon on that one.

02-17-2005, 04:06 PM	#15
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread Again saintfan, that is exactly what I am saying. NOONE who defends Brooks will talk about JUST BROOKS. I made a post while you were typign I guess about the CHOICES AB makes that he can choose not to make so I think that will answer your question, hopefully. Also I acknowledge Brooks has made some boneheaded plays, and I can name many players you\'d consider to be his caliber (or more or less) that have made similar plays Please show me that. And by similar let me be specific, leading the league in red zone turnovers(well, only one person can do that, and he is all ours), 20 yard backward passes to linemen, under-handed passes to LBs within the opposing team\'s red zone, and fumbles without being touched. Not trying to argue, but I really wanna see similar players and examples of that. Being that I watch Saints games in sportsbars with 4-5 51\" screens on all different games, I would like to know the examples you have seen that I haven\'t SIMILAR to what AB has done.

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02-17-2005, 04:24 PM	#16
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread Also saintfan, help me out here, why are statements like \"we need help on o=line, our receivers drop balls, and we need better defense\" made out to be definitive statements but if someone says \"Brooks makes bone-headed plays,\" it always comes with a but. But this this and this. Why don\'t Brooks defenders say, we have a bad o-line BUT our coaching is poor and the schemes were too complicated. Or our receivers drop balls BUT AB does not deliver the ball well at times and again coaches were poor. Or our defense was bad BUT it didn\'t help that our offense couldn\'t score in the first quarter and we had numerous turnovers and 3 and outs AND coaching was poor. How come only AB gets the benefit of excuse after exucse after excuse, when like someone else pointed out, his has been the only position not to change in the last 5 years and we are still mediocre? I think this lends to the feeling there are some who feel AB can do no wrong. Make excuses for the whole team if you are gonna make excuses, not the one person on the team just about EVERYONE, including people on other forums and the media, criticize.

02-17-2005, 04:26 PM	#17
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	another i cant hepp it thread How many years has Brooks Led the league in Red Zone Turnovers? Should he improve on that number next year? I\'d hope so. The pass to the lineman was an odd play to be sure, and who wouldn\'t blame Brooks for it? I\'d also like to know what the lineman was doing back there to begin with. The underhanded pass was a boneheaded play...likely the result of Brooks trying to make something happen. This was his fault to be sure, but it\'s not like his in a league of his own because of it. Brett Farve ring a bell? Jake Delhomme throwing the ball up for grabs? This is something EVERY QB has done (and most of \'em still do from time to time), but you speak as tho he\'s the only one. Are you trying to tell me you\'ve NEVER seen ANY OTHER QB make those or similar type plays? Even the \"great\" ones? Heck man, Brett Farve makes serveral a year.
	C'mon Man...

02-17-2005, 04:29 PM	#18
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	another i cant hepp it thread How come only AB gets the benefit of excuse after exucse after excuse, Speaking for myself, I don\'t think I make \"excuses\"...I think you misunderstand where I\'m coming from, but to answer your question, I think it\'s likely because he\'s the only player on the team being held responsible for EVERYTHING wrong with the team. One particular poster here once blamed Aaron Brooks for the inability of the defense to stop a screen! I understand you seem to think replacing Brooks should be a priority, and I disagree. Would you trade him for the Miami QB straight up? Probably...

02-17-2005, 04:34 PM	#19
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread Not many QBs I WOULDN\'T trade him for straight up, but not Miami\'s. That\'s what makes this funnier. Their fans wouldn\'t trade a player they know is gonna leave anyway for our QB. Do you not see the irony in that?

02-17-2005, 04:35 PM	#20
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread How many years has Brooks Led the league in Red Zone Turnovers? Should he improve on that number next year? I\'d hope so. Also, last year he led the league in lost fumbles. I guess trading one for the other can be considered improvement somehow.