another i cant hepp it thread

JKool · 02-17-2005, 04:59 PM

How come only AB gets the benefit of excuse after exucse after excuse, when like someone else pointed out, his has been the only position not to change in the last 5 years and we are still mediocre?

I don\'t know what excuses have to do with it, but this is idea that he is the only fixed thing making us mediocre is just a bad argument. Here is an example.

Imagine you have a team of five people, say A, B, C, D, and E. The team does poorly so the next year you replace E with F. The team does poorly so the next year you replace C with G. The team does poorly so the next year you replace B with H. The team does poorly so the next year you replace H with I. Now the only fixed element of the team is A, but how confident are you in saying that A is the reason the team did poorly? I\'m not very confident in that hypothesis. Think of all the possible combinations of conclusions you could draw. On a straight line probability, it is very unlikely that the conclusion A is the problem is true. In fact, it is just as likely that B, C, D, and H were the problem. Or B and H, or C, and H, and D. And so on and so on and so on.

[Edited on 17/2/2005 by JKool]

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 05:00 PM

Throwing the ball hopelessly downfield is no different that throwing an underhanded pass into a crowd in desperation, and least I don\'t think it is. Making a stupid play, regardless of the talent on the team, is still making a stupid play.

But it\'s not just ONE stupid play is it? Do you see now? Okay, simple task, find me a current QB who led the league in lost fumbles one year, then the very next year led the league in red zone turnovers, and for his career has never had a season completing 60% of his passes, all rolled into one guy. I bet that will be a list of one. Since the players you listed make the same mistakes, surely they have done it right? Just find me that example, and I will leave Ab alone.

JKool · 02-17-2005, 05:05 PM

Now discuss just AB and these CHOICES, and we may see some common ground.

We already agree on this. We all agree that Brooks makes bad choices and makes bad plays - NO ONE DISAGREES WITH THAT. NO ONE.

What we do disagree on is the extent to which that makes him blameworthy. That can not be decided on an individual basis when these guys play a team game. If you do not agree with that, we have nothing to say to each other on this topic. I simply cannot understand how a player can be evaluated completely in isolation, when he does not play completely in isolation.

On the dimension you demand that we evaluate him - no one disagrees.

Furthermore, whether Brooks has to throw the ball away or take a sack may be on him, but how he ended up in that position is NOT always on him (a missed block, a poorly run route, a well called and concealed blitz). Thus, I fail to see how often we are even able to evaluate him on the consideration you have in mind (maybe once or twice a game?).

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 05:06 PM

I don\'t know what excuses have to do with it, but this is idea that he is the only fixed thing making us mediocre is just a bad argument.

Nice assessment but it is not the idea that he is the ONLY fixed thing making us mediocre, but he is THE ONE fixed thing on a consistently mediocre team. We have tried to fix pretty much everything else, but Mr. Fumbles gets to stay. I have no idea why you guys can\'t understand a QB who leads the league in lost fumbles, then leads the league in red zone turnovers on top of incresingly bone-headed plays outside of that is BAD for a team. If this was someone else\'s QB we would be laughing our asses off that they had him. Not in New Orleans, here excuses flow like beads from a MArdi Gras float. But we do laugh at Vinny T in Dallas and Peyton Mannign not getting to the Superbowl. I guess that\'s even. We criticize Favre and Vick and players who get to the playoffs and win, but this guy we have who is a joke elsewhere has a blank check of excuses. In the words of Danno, like Deuce, I give up.

JKool · 02-17-2005, 05:07 PM

I bet that will be a list of one.

So what?

Each QB is unique? That would be shocking, wouldn\'t it?

If someone couldn\'t find a QB identical to Brooks, other than Brooks, he is the worst QB ever? He is a bad QB? He should be traded for a puck bag? What? What follows from this suggestion?

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 05:08 PM

Kool, like I told saintfan, fine me this QB

Okay, simple task, find me a current QB who led the league in lost fumbles one year, then the very next year led the league in red zone turnovers, and for his career has never had a season completing 60% of his passes, all rolled into one guy. I bet that will be a list of one. Since the players you listed make the same mistakes, surely they have done it right? Just find me that example, and I will leave Ab alone.

and I will have nothing more to say on the subject.

saintfan · 02-17-2005, 05:09 PM

But it\'s not just ONE stupid play is it? Do you see now?

What I see is someone who refuses accept that, while Brooks has his faults, that some of the issues with this team aren\'t HIS fault. I see someone who\'d rather argue about how bad he thinks Brooks is rather than acknowledge that with a half-decent defense the Saints would have made the playoffs last year and probably the year before.

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 05:09 PM

So what?

Each QB is unique? That would be shocking, wouldn\'t it?

You do realize these are stats YOU DON\'T WANT your Qb to lead the league in right? I give up. This is hopeless.

JKool · 02-17-2005, 05:10 PM

Nice ***** sment but it is not the idea that he is the ONLY fixed thing making us mediocre, but he is THE ONE fixed thing on a consistently mediocre team.

That doesn\'t avoid the problem my example raised.

saintswhodi · 02-17-2005, 05:10 PM

Again, I give up. :casstet:

02-17-2005, 04:59 PM	#31
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread How come only AB gets the benefit of excuse after exucse after excuse, when like someone else pointed out, his has been the only position not to change in the last 5 years and we are still mediocre? I don\'t know what excuses have to do with it, but this is idea that he is the only fixed thing making us mediocre is just a bad argument. Here is an example. Imagine you have a team of five people, say A, B, C, D, and E. The team does poorly so the next year you replace E with F. The team does poorly so the next year you replace C with G. The team does poorly so the next year you replace B with H. The team does poorly so the next year you replace H with I. Now the only fixed element of the team is A, but how confident are you in saying that A is the reason the team did poorly? I\'m not very confident in that hypothesis. Think of all the possible combinations of conclusions you could draw. On a straight line probability, it is very unlikely that the conclusion A is the problem is true. In fact, it is just as likely that B, C, D, and H were the problem. Or B and H, or C, and H, and D. And so on and so on and so on. [Edited on 17/2/2005 by JKool]
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-17-2005, 05:00 PM	#32
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread Throwing the ball hopelessly downfield is no different that throwing an underhanded pass into a crowd in desperation, and least I don\'t think it is. Making a stupid play, regardless of the talent on the team, is still making a stupid play. But it\'s not just ONE stupid play is it? Do you see now? Okay, simple task, find me a current QB who led the league in lost fumbles one year, then the very next year led the league in red zone turnovers, and for his career has never had a season completing 60% of his passes, all rolled into one guy. I bet that will be a list of one. Since the players you listed make the same mistakes, surely they have done it right? Just find me that example, and I will leave Ab alone.

02-17-2005, 05:05 PM	#33
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread Now discuss just AB and these CHOICES, and we may see some common ground. We already agree on this. We all agree that Brooks makes bad choices and makes bad plays - NO ONE DISAGREES WITH THAT. NO ONE. What we do disagree on is the extent to which that makes him blameworthy. That can not be decided on an individual basis when these guys play a team game. If you do not agree with that, we have nothing to say to each other on this topic. I simply cannot understand how a player can be evaluated completely in isolation, when he does not play completely in isolation. On the dimension you demand that we evaluate him - no one disagrees. Furthermore, whether Brooks has to throw the ball away or take a sack may be on him, but how he ended up in that position is NOT always on him (a missed block, a poorly run route, a well called and concealed blitz). Thus, I fail to see how often we are even able to evaluate him on the consideration you have in mind (maybe once or twice a game?).
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-17-2005, 05:06 PM	#34
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread I don\'t know what excuses have to do with it, but this is idea that he is the only fixed thing making us mediocre is just a bad argument. Nice assessment but it is not the idea that he is the ONLY fixed thing making us mediocre, but he is THE ONE fixed thing on a consistently mediocre team. We have tried to fix pretty much everything else, but Mr. Fumbles gets to stay. I have no idea why you guys can\'t understand a QB who leads the league in lost fumbles, then leads the league in red zone turnovers on top of incresingly bone-headed plays outside of that is BAD for a team. If this was someone else\'s QB we would be laughing our asses off that they had him. Not in New Orleans, here excuses flow like beads from a MArdi Gras float. But we do laugh at Vinny T in Dallas and Peyton Mannign not getting to the Superbowl. I guess that\'s even. We criticize Favre and Vick and players who get to the playoffs and win, but this guy we have who is a joke elsewhere has a blank check of excuses. In the words of Danno, like Deuce, I give up.

02-17-2005, 05:07 PM	#35
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread I bet that will be a list of one. So what? Each QB is unique? That would be shocking, wouldn\'t it? If someone couldn\'t find a QB identical to Brooks, other than Brooks, he is the worst QB ever? He is a bad QB? He should be traded for a puck bag? What? What follows from this suggestion?

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02-17-2005, 05:08 PM	#36
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread Kool, like I told saintfan, fine me this QB Okay, simple task, find me a current QB who led the league in lost fumbles one year, then the very next year led the league in red zone turnovers, and for his career has never had a season completing 60% of his passes, all rolled into one guy. I bet that will be a list of one. Since the players you listed make the same mistakes, surely they have done it right? Just find me that example, and I will leave Ab alone. and I will have nothing more to say on the subject.

02-17-2005, 05:09 PM	#37
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	another i cant hepp it thread But it\'s not just ONE stupid play is it? Do you see now? What I see is someone who refuses accept that, while Brooks has his faults, that some of the issues with this team aren\'t HIS fault. I see someone who\'d rather argue about how bad he thinks Brooks is rather than acknowledge that with a half-decent defense the Saints would have made the playoffs last year and probably the year before.

02-17-2005, 05:09 PM	#38
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread So what? Each QB is unique? That would be shocking, wouldn\'t it? You do realize these are stats YOU DON\'T WANT your Qb to lead the league in right? I give up. This is hopeless.

02-17-2005, 05:10 PM	#39
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread Nice ***** sment but it is not the idea that he is the ONLY fixed thing making us mediocre, but he is THE ONE fixed thing on a consistently mediocre team. That doesn\'t avoid the problem my example raised.

02-17-2005, 05:10 PM	#40
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread Again, I give up. :casstet: