JKool

FV,

I wouldn\'t be unhappy with that at this point.

saintswhodi

I see where our basic disagreement comes in Kool. I have not been happy with we have done in free agency. What you call \"addressing needs,\" I call scrolling the scrap heaps tp pacify a few, and it seems to have worked. We got Craft for a 5th round draft pick, other teams couldn\'t beat that if they wanted him? Ambrose was let walk cause he is old. Young is a back-up, a good guy off the bench, he is not a starter. So I will make our difference clear. i HAVE NOT BEEN HAPPY WITH ANY FREE AGENT MOVE FOR YEARS. Not when they made it, not looking back. I was pleasantly surprised by Stecker in the Rams game, but WHEN WE GOT HIM, I was scratching my head. So the basic difference is, if we have a need at a position like we do now, say DT , LB or T, you see signing very lower tier off the radar cheap guys as addressing the need, then when they don\'t pan out, you say \"well hindsight....\" I see getting cheap lower tier players as crap moves and I am not satisfied with them and it pisses me off that it seems we are gonna do that AGAIN. It has not worked for 4 years. I hope you understand the difference between us. I have not been happy with the free agent moves and crap trades this team has made for years. Obviously, signing ANYONE at a position of need is addressing it to you bro, so we differ, vastly. No biggie. I see why you are still optimistic. So if we sign Riley back, we have done SOMETHING to address the RT position and this move shouldn\'t be second quessed until he fails again. Correct? Just an example, don\'t take offense. Just trying to show the kind of crap moves I think this team has repeatedly made with regards to FA.

Hmm, on the draft picks point, having your draft picks REMAIN with your team is not exactly a good thing. Examples: Sullivan, highest pick we had in a while. Hodge, Allen, Cie Grant, Gardner, Gleason, Mitchell, Stinchcomb, Henderson. They are ON the team, but are they HELPING the team? I would rather have one value starter from drafting then seven guys just ON THE TEAM and calling our drafts a success. We may differ. It\'s all good.

I also don\'t know how you would get the info on Conwell. I don\'t believe it so I would like to see it. I don\'t recall that many teams having an interest. But let\'s quantify what we consider a \"wanted\" player. I consider a \"wanted\" player someone at least 5 teams have approached. That\'s wanted. Less than that, I see as teams being curious to see what they can get away with signing a guy more than him being \"wanted.\" We may differ.

I don\'t know how much more evidence needs to be provided that our hand was forced in several moves. Just like Haz was forced to start Bockwoldt and Watson cause of injuries. That is this team\'s MO. Make a move when you are forced and youhave no other options.

We are not FORCED to get any FA. Unless we have ZERO other options at that position, kinda like with Gandy and Riley. MM was a TRADE, we were FORCED to make that trade(trade deadline, position of GREAT need). As to why would we get someone we didn\'t need, have you been watching this team? We are bringing in a G and a backup RB. Huh? So we NEED these positions in the first week of FA you are telling me. We don\'t NEED LBs, we have them, but we would like to UPGRADE them. So NO we would not have been forced to get Pierce, and we weren\'t. We are not horrendous at that position, but it is a position that could benefit greatly from an upgrade. If we only had 2 LBs, we would be forced. We are looking to get better, nothing wrong with that.

The Howard trade is our last hope to land an impact player. Have you seen the salaries guys with less ability than Hartwell have gotten? The salaries Wahle and Rivera got? Howard is our last hope. Let\'s hope they don\'t overpay someone with that one too.

JKool

Good response Whodi. I appreciate that.

Here are my remaining comments:
(1) Ok. That certainly would make it such that you wouldn\'t buy my argument. Several of those moves they made, I agree, a few others I don\'t. I think getting Gandy and Young, at least in my book, were good at the time they were made.

(2) Not so. As you pointed out, we differ on whether those guys we signed the last couple of years were good moves at the time. I think they were, you don\'t. I also am getting the feeling, that according to you we are not addressing an area of need UNLESS we sign a top five guy.

(3) A fine point regarding draft picks. However, those guys you name are not starters, but I don\'t see that they are not helping. I think a little research will reveal that a lot of draft picks aren\'t even playing in the NFL at all. Certainly, my argument wasn\'t all that strong - I was merely trying to point you to evidence that our later draft picks didn\'t suck (at least relative to other teams).

(4) This \"forced hand\" thing is starting to become clearer to me, but I\'m still confused. Do you think we overpaid for MM or we shouldn\'t have got him? If not, then our hand being forced didn\'t hurt us at all. We had lots of options when we got Gandy. We could have gone after a much less respected player or even simply decided to go with Riley and Folau that year! Yikes. You don\'t think we\'re forced to get a LB, but we were forced to get MM? That doesn\'t make sense to me yet; I think we were in way worse shape at LB than we were at CB at the time of that deal.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

ScottyRo

I just want to point out that those two situations are completely different so the compensations shouldn\'t be compared. SanFran got screwed all the way around on that deal by the NFL. They had rights to TO after he missed the deadline. The story should have ended there with the 49ers trading him to Baltimore, but the NFL came in and forced things to be different. Basically, they forced the 49ers to take less than value and they forced Baltimore to live with it. The Eagles came out way ahead on the deal, but that\'s the good old NFL for ya.

saintswhodi

I disagree On the forced thing Kool and here\'s why. We were terrible at corner during the season before MM, TERRIBLE. Like I said, trade deadline, position of great need, deal done. And yes I do think we overpaid. The second would have been fine, but JT too? We were forced. Here is why we aren\'t forced at LB this OFFSEASON(MM was in season). The draft. Scouts have been playing up for months the depth at LB in this draft. There are many quality players at LB in the draft, and we can get one, or maybe two there. They would be rookies though, and unproven, but they are there. That\'s why we aren\'t forced at LB in this instance. Plus we already have at least Watson and Colby, whom most agree with some offseason strengthening could and should get better. But we will be saying the same thing possibly about any drafted LB as the ones we drafted last year \"with an offseason of conditiong...etc.\" That\'s why getting a FA one is an UPGRADE and not a forced deal.

I think the pressure to get Gandy was more than just cause we NEEDED him. It was also a matter of this twon being accustomed to a great LT, Roaf, and was also partially a PR move. Even though Gandy was on the decline, the team could point to him and say, he WAS a pro-bowler and we ARE trying to actively replace Roaf. It was PR as much as being forced, at least for me.

Scotty, I didn;t say the situations weren\'t different, I was explaining how when a team\'s hand is forced, they can be pushed into over or under-paying just to get the move done. The 49ers were gonna get nothing for TO, so they were forced. The trade deadline was looming(about 3 days away if I remember correctly), the Pack was fine with letting McKenzie sit unless they were overwhelmed with an offer, which we did. Forced. Our CB situation was horrendous. Craft was hurt, Ambrose was hurt. Thomas was playing like he saw a $100 bill ont he ground every play and was trying to chase it. Thanks for your input though. I don\'t mind clarifying. :P


Also you can add PR to the MM move too. We didn\'t get a corner in the draft or FA the prev year, and fans and experts screamed at the team for not doing so. We get MM, everyone goes away. We were forced to make it happen, and we overpaid.


[Edited on 4/3/2005 by saintswhodi]

GumboBC

Hey, we were terrible at defensive tackle and linebacker too. We didn\'t go out and address those positions because we were forced to.
:
When has being terrible at any position ever FORCED the Saints to make a move? LOL

We\'ve stunk for years at multiple positions and the only thing that was FORCED was the fans having to watch it... :P

There was an opportunity to get McKenzie and we signed him.

There\'s an opportunity to get a linebacker in free-agency this year and that isn\'t FORCING them to do anything..

Peace..

saintswhodi

Show me some quotes of some Dts and LBs going to the media and saying they hated their team, wanted out, and demanded to be traded and were sitting out until it was done. You will find exactly zero. Thanks for adding nothing to the debate.

Wrong. We didn\'t \"sign\" him. We traded for him, and overpaid.

Saintuary

This is soooo stressful. one of our problems is the good friggin free agents Don\'t want to come here. We ain\'t doing jack sh!t. This is every year. Last year we talked about Ian Gold, Trotter and others visiting but guess what? The keeper of the holy beans said \"you want to many beans and you\'ll sh!t in you pants.\"

We are looking for that one Bean in the roughage.

saintswhodi

Hard to find a bean LB when we are looking at bean RBs, Tes and Gs.

baronm

look even a DT would be nice..or a safety or heck a DE..but we aren\'t even on the right unit yet.