Payton need to go?

jeanpierre · 09-12-2017, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

The running game was not working. The swing passes weren't working. The downfield throws were, however, and THAT is what we simply didn't do enough of, in my opinion.

If we would run actual screen passes (not the same thing as a swing pass, though Payton must not agree with me) where we can catch their defense off guard, like they did to us, maybe we'd take some pressure off of Drew. Those swing passes are always telegraphed, and rarely work as a result. The Vikings offense will rank in the lower half of the league again, because they don't have great personnel and they don't run anything magical. We gave an NFL QB all the time he needed and busted in coverage over and over again. That will make any offense with a pulse look like the Vikings did tonight.

Burningmetal, the running game not working is simply not true...

The Saints were leading the game 6-3 with a run-pass ratio of 16 run plays to 17 (14) pass plays; three of the pass plays were negated by penalty (hence the 17 (14) pass plays), two by the Vikings (T. Johnson - PF/Roughing Passer, E. Griffin - Offsides) and one by Saints (A. Peat - Holding)...

Just because Ingram, Peterson, or Kamara tear off a run of 50 yds doesn't mean the run game wasn't successful...

Agree with you about passing to the running backs; in the first half while in the lead 6-3, Brees' second longest completion was actually to Ingram for 18 yds...

You mentioned telegraphed passes and the Vikings were definitely keyed on Kamara as Brees was 2 for 4 to Kamara for a net -6 yards in the first half - Payton was forcing it to Kamara when he should have used Ingram which would have kept the Vikes defense honest...

burningmetal · 09-12-2017, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Burningmetal, the running game not working is simply not true...

The Saints were leading the game 6-3 with a run-pass ratio of 16 run plays to 17 (14) pass plays; three of the pass plays were negated by penalty (hence the 17 (14) pass plays), two by the Vikings (T. Johnson - PF/Roughing Passer, E. Griffin - Offsides) and one by Saints (A. Peat - Holding)...

Just because Ingram, Peterson, or Kamara tear off a run of 50 yds doesn't mean the run game wasn't successful...

Agree with you about passing to the running backs; in the first half while in the lead 6-3, Brees' second longest completion was actually to Ingram for 18 yds...

You mentioned telegraphed passes and the Vikings were definitely keyed on Kamara as Brees was 2 for 4 to Kamara for a net -6 yards in the first half - Payton was forcing it to Kamara when he should have used Ingram which would have kept the Vikes defense honest...

You're entitled to your opinion if you believe that a fairly equal ratio of run to pass, equals success, but I disagree with you. The holes simply were not there, with the exception of two, maybe three runs. It's one of the main reasons we kept stalling and settling for field goals.

When we decided to throw the ball down the field, even a little bit, we had some success, which is why it was so maddening to see how gun shy Payton was about calling more aggressive plays. But, for some reason, when we got into the red zone we suddenly abandoned what got us there, and stalled.

When we scored 10 points in the 4th quarter, we were throwing the ball down the field. It sure wasn't the running game that got us going then. Of course, we had to run the play clock down to 10 seconds or less on just about every play when we were supposed to be in hurry up. There was no sense of urgency, at any point, even when we started moving the ball. Their pace seemed to be conceding defeat, whether that was their intention or not.

jeanpierre · 09-13-2017, 10:15 AM

Watched the game again last night and confirmed play calling has got to be more patient with the run game - from a post earlier in the thread...

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

[B]... the running game not working is simply not true...

The Saints were leading the game 6-3 with a run-pass ratio of 16 run plays to 17 (14) pass plays; three of the pass plays were negated by penalty (hence the 17 (14) pass plays), two by the Vikings (T. Johnson - PF/Roughing Passer, E. Griffin - Offsides) and one by Saints (A. Peat - Holding)...

Just because Ingram, Peterson, or Kamara tear off a run of 50 yds doesn't mean the run game wasn't successful...

In the first half, we had RuYd plays of 9, 1, 3, 2, 2, 1, 4, 3, 3, 7, 2, 5, -1, 3, 2, 1...

Again, the 20 yd gashes are great, but this Vikings defense was third (3rd) in pass defense, but only twentieth (20th) in rush defense last season...

So the recipe for beating these physical defenses like the Vikings, Seahawks and Broncos is too pound them, running it right at their edge rushers...

And another thing I didn't see with the Ingram and Peterson runs was a lot of pull-zone blocking to open the field, instead trying to run at L. Joseph...

Running those wide zone sweeps, exposing their pass rushers to those remember me hits from our physical guards...

Believe Payton learned his lesson and the MNF beating in the second half will reinforce the lesson...

K Major · 09-13-2017, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Watched the game again last night and confirmed play calling has got to be more patient with the run game - from a post earlier in the thread...

So the recipe for beating these physical defenses like the Vikings, Seahawks and Broncos is too pound them, running it right at their edge rushers...

And another thing I didn't see with the Ingram and Peterson runs was a lot of pull-zone blocking to open the field, instead trying to run at L. Joseph...

Someway the Saints must establish a running attack going forward.

Ingram, Peterson, Kamara etc ... there is no reason for us not to have a 90+ yard run game. Parcels always used to say that Payton was a bit too "pass happy". Run it down their collective throats ... even if it isn't working at first.

jeanpierre · 09-13-2017, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by K Major

Someway the Saints must establish a running attack going forward.

Ingram, Peterson, Kamara etc ... there is no reason for us not to have a 90+ yard run game. Parcels always used to say that Payton was a bit too "pass happy". Run it down their collective throats ... even if it isn't working at first.

And that's the thing, what do you define as working?

I would've considerd a lead of 6-3 as working just fine...

dizzle88 · 09-13-2017, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

And that's the thing, what do you define as working?

I would've considerd a lead of 6-3 as working just fine...

It was working, the game was being managed and we all knew eventually that our offense would find a way.

What we didn't count on is the D having a random meltdown after they didn't play too badly to begin with.

Then Payton just confused himself, finally got an offensive drive going, only to settle for FG's.

09-12-2017, 06:05 AM	#1
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Payton need to go? Originally Posted by burningmetal The running game was not working. The swing passes weren't working. The downfield throws were, however, and THAT is what we simply didn't do enough of, in my opinion. If we would run actual screen passes (not the same thing as a swing pass, though Payton must not agree with me) where we can catch their defense off guard, like they did to us, maybe we'd take some pressure off of Drew. Those swing passes are always telegraphed, and rarely work as a result. The Vikings offense will rank in the lower half of the league again, because they don't have great personnel and they don't run anything magical. We gave an NFL QB all the time he needed and busted in coverage over and over again. That will make any offense with a pulse look like the Vikings did tonight. Burningmetal, the running game not working is simply not true... The Saints were leading the game 6-3 with a run-pass ratio of 16 run plays to 17 (14) pass plays; three of the pass plays were negated by penalty (hence the 17 (14) pass plays), two by the Vikings (T. Johnson - PF/Roughing Passer, E. Griffin - Offsides) and one by Saints (A. Peat - Holding)... Just because Ingram, Peterson, or Kamara tear off a run of 50 yds doesn't mean the run game wasn't successful... Agree with you about passing to the running backs; in the first half while in the lead 6-3, Brees' second longest completion was actually to Ingram for 18 yds... You mentioned telegraphed passes and the Vikings were definitely keyed on Kamara as Brees was 2 for 4 to Kamara for a net -6 yards in the first half - Payton was forcing it to Kamara when he should have used Ingram which would have kept the Vikes defense honest...
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

09-12-2017, 08:02 AM	#2
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Payton need to go? Originally Posted by jeanpierre Burningmetal, the running game not working is simply not true... The Saints were leading the game 6-3 with a run-pass ratio of 16 run plays to 17 (14) pass plays; three of the pass plays were negated by penalty (hence the 17 (14) pass plays), two by the Vikings (T. Johnson - PF/Roughing Passer, E. Griffin - Offsides) and one by Saints (A. Peat - Holding)... Just because Ingram, Peterson, or Kamara tear off a run of 50 yds doesn't mean the run game wasn't successful... Agree with you about passing to the running backs; in the first half while in the lead 6-3, Brees' second longest completion was actually to Ingram for 18 yds... You mentioned telegraphed passes and the Vikings were definitely keyed on Kamara as Brees was 2 for 4 to Kamara for a net -6 yards in the first half - Payton was forcing it to Kamara when he should have used Ingram which would have kept the Vikes defense honest... You're entitled to your opinion if you believe that a fairly equal ratio of run to pass, equals success, but I disagree with you. The holes simply were not there, with the exception of two, maybe three runs. It's one of the main reasons we kept stalling and settling for field goals. When we decided to throw the ball down the field, even a little bit, we had some success, which is why it was so maddening to see how gun shy Payton was about calling more aggressive plays. But, for some reason, when we got into the red zone we suddenly abandoned what got us there, and stalled. When we scored 10 points in the 4th quarter, we were throwing the ball down the field. It sure wasn't the running game that got us going then. Of course, we had to run the play clock down to 10 seconds or less on just about every play when we were supposed to be in hurry up. There was no sense of urgency, at any point, even when we started moving the ball. Their pace seemed to be conceding defeat, whether that was their intention or not. neugey likes this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

09-13-2017, 10:15 AM	#3
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Payton need to go? Watched the game again last night and confirmed play calling has got to be more patient with the run game - from a post earlier in the thread... Originally Posted by jeanpierre [B]... the running game not working is simply not true... The Saints were leading the game 6-3 with a run-pass ratio of 16 run plays to 17 (14) pass plays; three of the pass plays were negated by penalty (hence the 17 (14) pass plays), two by the Vikings (T. Johnson - PF/Roughing Passer, E. Griffin - Offsides) and one by Saints (A. Peat - Holding)... Just because Ingram, Peterson, or Kamara tear off a run of 50 yds doesn't mean the run game wasn't successful... In the first half, we had RuYd plays of 9, 1, 3, 2, 2, 1, 4, 3, 3, 7, 2, 5, -1, 3, 2, 1... Again, the 20 yd gashes are great, but this Vikings defense was third (3rd) in pass defense, but only twentieth (20th) in rush defense last season... So the recipe for beating these physical defenses like the Vikings, Seahawks and Broncos is too pound them, running it right at their edge rushers... And another thing I didn't see with the Ingram and Peterson runs was a lot of pull-zone blocking to open the field, instead trying to run at L. Joseph... Running those wide zone sweeps, exposing their pass rushers to those remember me hits from our physical guards... Believe Payton learned his lesson and the MNF beating in the second half will reinforce the lesson... dizzle88 likes this.
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

09-13-2017, 10:50 AM	#4
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,797 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Payton need to go? Originally Posted by jeanpierre Watched the game again last night and confirmed play calling has got to be more patient with the run game - from a post earlier in the thread... So the recipe for beating these physical defenses like the Vikings, Seahawks and Broncos is too pound them, running it right at their edge rushers... And another thing I didn't see with the Ingram and Peterson runs was a lot of pull-zone blocking to open the field, instead trying to run at L. Joseph... Someway the Saints must establish a running attack going forward. Ingram, Peterson, Kamara etc ... there is no reason for us not to have a 90+ yard run game. Parcels always used to say that Payton was a bit too "pass happy". Run it down their collective throats ... even if it isn't working at first. WillMacKenzie likes this.

09-13-2017, 11:18 AM	#5
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Payton need to go? Originally Posted by K Major Someway the Saints must establish a running attack going forward. Ingram, Peterson, Kamara etc ... there is no reason for us not to have a 90+ yard run game. Parcels always used to say that Payton was a bit too "pass happy". Run it down their collective throats ... even if it isn't working at first. And that's the thing, what do you define as working? I would've considerd a lead of 6-3 as working just fine... K Major likes this.

09-13-2017, 11:22 AM	#6
dizzle88 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 11,523	Re: Payton need to go? Originally Posted by jeanpierre And that's the thing, what do you define as working? I would've considerd a lead of 6-3 as working just fine... It was working, the game was being managed and we all knew eventually that our offense would find a way. What we didn't count on is the D having a random meltdown after they didn't play too badly to begin with. Then Payton just confused himself, finally got an offensive drive going, only to settle for FG's.

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