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N/S Your take on the XFL

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by TheOak If that is what you chose to believe then it is on you. Fact of the matter is that money and power do not drive interest and fanbase in the entertainment industry. David Tepper and Stan ...

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Old 02-12-2020, 05:59 AM   #31
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Re: N/S Your take on the XFL

Originally Posted by TheOak View Post
If that is what you chose to believe then it is on you.

Fact of the matter is that money and power do not drive interest and fanbase in the entertainment industry. David Tepper and Stan Kroneke (rightnow you are asking your self who in the **** are they, so did I) are the two richest NFL team owners and I wouldn't watch the Panthers or the Rams if you paid me.

Product appeal drives revenue pure and simple. This is why Brittany Spears has the number one single of all time in terms of sales... Its not her talent or skill. its why Bing Crosby has the #2 and #4 selling singles of all time, he has no power or money and died 43 years ago. Its why a little company named Microsoft crushed IMB and why a little company named Apple crushed Microsoft... Better products at the right time. Coke a Cola has a LOT or power and money, New Coke flopped in 1985.

To date one of your statements is correct:"the best most successful leagues should be the ones that put the best product on the field."

What appeals to you is irrelevant, its what appeals to the broadest audience that makes money and power. In spite of its issues, to date.. no one has put a better product on the field than the NFL. Right now those honours go to the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL.

BTW, team owners negotiate with local government for stadiums and local concessions, not the league. This is why not all stadiums or teams are created or function equally.

I get that you were fed a line of sh1t and it made sense when you heard it, it wasn't correct.
Yea, what you are saying here has absolutely nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make. The NFL puts the best product on display, which is why it dominates. This is only because it has had a ton of help in doing so. If the NFL had to go through the same process as other football leagues that try to blossom, then it wouldn't be near as powerful as it is now. Also when you say that "team owners negotiate" you are kidding yourself. There have been many times where the NFL has already started negotiating with the local and state governments before they even had an owner for the team they were looking to move. There are so many things that the NFL gets away with, and the idea that they've gotten there because they've been more creative or smarter than other brands is laughable. There are literally books on how the NFL gets giant tax advantages(from how they've used their non profit status to not pay tens of millions of dollars in taxes to how they've used write offs on corporate seating). The NFL isn't Britney Spears.
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Old 02-12-2020, 07:26 AM   #32
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Re: N/S Your take on the XFL

Originally Posted by hitta View Post
Yea, what you are saying here has absolutely nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make. The NFL puts the best product on display, which is why it dominates. This is only because it has had a ton of help in doing so. If the NFL had to go through the same process as other football leagues that try to blossom, then it wouldn't be near as powerful as it is now. Also when you say that "team owners negotiate" you are kidding yourself. There have been many times where the NFL has already started negotiating with the local and state governments before they even had an owner for the team they were looking to move. There are so many things that the NFL gets away with, and the idea that they've gotten there because they've been more creative or smarter than other brands is laughable. There are literally books on how the NFL gets giant tax advantages(from how they've used their non profit status to not pay tens of millions of dollars in taxes to how they've used write offs on corporate seating). The NFL isn't Britney Spears.

I’m talking about exactly what you are just maybe not getting the point across it seems.

Instead of a page reply, I’ll take two lines and comment on them which should make you understand that you are looking at a snap shot and not the whole picture.

1. “ If the NFL had to go through the same process as other football leagues that try to blossom, then it wouldn't be near as powerful as it is now.”

It did, how do you think it started and got to where it is now. Actually the NFL had it harder and paved the way for knock off leagues, making their birth and progress easier. The NFL is proof of concept which is what investors want to see before funding new ventures, without investors zero professional leagues exist. The NFL’s power comes from its revenues not vice versa.

2. “ Also when you say that "team owners negotiate" you are kidding yourself. There have been many times where the NFL has already started negotiating with the local and state governments before they even had an owner for the team they were looking to move.”

Who exactly do you think decides which State Governments are talked to? Goodell doesn’t move a team brother, the owner of the team does. Benson didn’t need Goodell to bless his move to San Antonio, he needed the other 31 owners. Goodell and the people beneath him do why they are told by the Owners.

A new city, new team, new owner are not approved by Goodell, they are decided and approved by a vote from the owners.

Again.... believe as you wish but assuming I’m clueless or ‘kidding myself’ doesn’t further any understanding.

If you built a lemonade franchise from a single stand over a 50 year period, should it be rather delusional for me to say that you are only a successful franchise because of power? Ignoring 50 years of hard work and product development....

And fuc8, a page reply lol
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Old 02-12-2020, 07:30 AM   #33
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Re: N/S Your take on the XFL

Originally Posted by TheOak View Post
I’m talking about exactly what you are just maybe not getting the point across it seems.

Instead of a page reply, I’ll take two lines and comment on them which should make you understand that you are looking at a snap shot and not the whole picture.

1. “ If the NFL had to go through the same process as other football leagues that try to blossom, then it wouldn't be near as powerful as it is now.”

It did, how do you think it started and got to where it is now. Actually the NFL had it harder and paved the way for knock off leagues, making their birth and progress easier. The NFL is proof of concept which is what investors want to see before funding new ventures, without investors zero professional leagues exist. The NFL’s power comes from its revenues not vice versa.

2. “ Also when you say that "team owners negotiate" you are kidding yourself. There have been many times where the NFL has already started negotiating with the local and state governments before they even had an owner for the team they were looking to move.”

Who exactly do you think decides which State Governments are talked to? Goodell doesn’t move a team brother, the owner of the team does. Benson didn’t need Goodell to bless his move to San Antonio, he needed the other 31 owners. Goodell and the people beneath him do why they are told by the Owners.

A new city, new team, new owner are not approved by Goodell, they are decided and approved by a vote from the owners.

Again.... believe as you wish but assuming I’m clueless or ‘kidding myself’ doesn’t further any understanding.

If you built a lemonade franchise from a single stand over a 50 year period, should it be rather delusional for me to say that you are only a successful franchise because of power? Ignoring 50 years of hard work and product development....

And fuc8, a page reply lol


Lol


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Old 02-12-2020, 08:47 AM   #34
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Re: N/S Your take on the XFL

Originally Posted by TheOak View Post
I’m talking about exactly what you are just maybe not getting the point across it seems.

Instead of a page reply, I’ll take two lines and comment on them which should make you understand that you are looking at a snap shot and not the whole picture.

1. “ If the NFL had to go through the same process as other football leagues that try to blossom, then it wouldn't be near as powerful as it is now.”

It did, how do you think it started and got to where it is now. Actually the NFL had it harder and paved the way for knock off leagues, making their birth and progress easier. The NFL is proof of concept which is what investors want to see before funding new ventures, without investors zero professional leagues exist. The NFL’s power comes from its revenues not vice versa.

2. “ Also when you say that "team owners negotiate" you are kidding yourself. There have been many times where the NFL has already started negotiating with the local and state governments before they even had an owner for the team they were looking to move.”

Who exactly do you think decides which State Governments are talked to? Goodell doesn’t move a team brother, the owner of the team does. Benson didn’t need Goodell to bless his move to San Antonio, he needed the other 31 owners. Goodell and the people beneath him do why they are told by the Owners.

A new city, new team, new owner are not approved by Goodell, they are decided and approved by a vote from the owners.

Again.... believe as you wish but assuming I’m clueless or ‘kidding myself’ doesn’t further any understanding.

If you built a lemonade franchise from a single stand over a 50 year period, should it be rather delusional for me to say that you are only a successful franchise because of power? Ignoring 50 years of hard work and product development....

And fuc8, a page reply lol
Once again you are making arguments against things I'm not even saying. I don't care if it is Goodell or the owners doing it. I'm saying that the NFL gets in bed with the local and state governments, gets special deals, and builds their stadiums. I don't care if they send Roger Goodell, the Cookie Monster, or some team of owners to get the job done. They get special tax breaks from the federal government as well to go along with this.

To the other point, if you look back through the history of the league, the NFL(not the merged NFL-AFL) absorbed the AAFCs which was a decent rival league. The AFL emerged to challenge the NFL. The AFL was a strong challenger to the NFL Then the NFL and AFL merged. The idea that the NFL(in its current form) has had it hard is ridiculous. The current NFL is just the result of a bunch of mergers. The whole NFL as is has had its path handed to it on a silver platter. Throughout history, there have been several entities that have done a fairly decent job at challenging the NFL, but they all end up merging because it is easier and they have fewer roadblocks mainly because of how society is legislated. The NFL and AFL both had their hands in the government cookie jar, and the moment they came together they had a wide open door to do what they wanted at both the local, state, and even federal(such as using their non-profit status to get out of paying several million dollars in taxes) levels. At the current moment, it is almost impossible to challenge the NFL because of all the advantages they have had and will continue to have. They only way they have had it harder is that it has required a progression over time to build and also for society to build up and advance the infrastructure. As far as the tax code and the government are concerned, not too many companies have had it easier than the NFL.


There are so many different things I can point out. Sports broadcasting act of 1961 and how CBS also have unfair advantages when it comes to broadcasting through special means. I mean do you think it's fair that most of these networks like CBS have public help, then they go and make broadcasting deals with entities like the NFL to broadcast all their games? And if other leagues can't get these broadcasting deals with CBS or FOX, but end up on some other less watched station. The XFL is very fortunate to end up on ESPN/ABC and Fox. Their deals probably aren't nearly as good though revenue wise, but at least they get some visibility. Still, the whole thing is one big machine, and most people just ignore it. You try to pretend like everything that has occurred has been due to the free market playing out, but it hasn't.
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Old 02-12-2020, 09:11 AM   #35
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Re: N/S Your take on the XFL

I enjoyed watching the Houston game, I like the extra point rules for 1,2 or 3 points. Plan on going to a game at some point this season and hope this becomes a successful league for players that don’t make NFL teams or even as a minor league system for the NFL like NFL Europe
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Old 02-12-2020, 09:27 AM   #36
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Re: N/S Your take on the XFL

Originally Posted by hitta View Post
You try to pretend like everything that has occurred has been due to the free market playing out, but it hasn't.
No Sir. I am under zero illusion that a pure free market exists, just like I am under zero illusion that any company exists without the assistance of public tax dollars. Even one man S-Corps (Sole Proprietorships) get assistance (financial backing) from the SBA. Similarly I am not under the illusion that the XFL is a small business trying to get started. You are singing that song very loudly 'the small guy with no power is lucky and has no chance'.

What you may or may not know is that the XFL is not a fledgling company, it is an extension of WWE Wrestling (5.7BN valuation), Alfa Entertainment (3.2BN valuation), and Vince McMahon's (Net Worth is 2BN)... The CEO and Commissioner Oliver Luck ran for Congress, was drafted by the Houston Oilers, was GM of 2 NFL Europe teams, and was Executive Vice President of Regulatory Affairs of the NCAA...

Vince McMahon sold $272MM in stock to start the XFL... when the XFL walks into an office, it isn't fu0king Gepetto the pore cobbler with hat in hand looking for a handout. Its the paragraph above leveraging all of its might.

You've been sold on an ideal and its not reality.

Anything further and I am repeating myself.

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Old 02-12-2020, 09:35 AM   #37
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Re: N/S Your take on the XFL

Originally Posted by TheOak View Post
No Sir. I am under zero illusion that a pure free market exists, just like I am under zero illusion that any company exists without the assistance of public tax dollars. Even one man S-Corps (Sole Proprietorships) get assistance (financial backing) from the SBA. Similarly I am not under the illusion that the XFL is a small business trying to get started. You are singing that song very loudly 'the small guy with no power is lucky and has no chance'.

What you may or may not know is that the XFL is not a fledgling company, it is an extension of WWE Wrestling (5.7BN valuation), Alfa Entertainment (3.2BN valuation), and Vince McMahon's (Net Worth is 2BN)... The CEO and Commissioner Oliver Luck ran for Congress, was drafted by the Houston Oilers, was GM of 2 NFL Europe teams, and was Executive Vice President of Regulatory Affairs of the NCAA...

Vince McMahon sold $272MM in stock to start the XFL... when the XFL walks into an office, it isn't fu0king Gepetto the pore cobbler with hat in hand looking for a handout. Its the paragraph above leveraging all of its might.

You've been sold on an ideal and its not reality.

Anything further and I am repeating myself.
I've already said I had high hopes for the XFL,because it had strong financial backing. I've already stated that I think there are several things that the XFL does better than the NFL and I'd love to see the XFL really challenge the NFL. The only thing I'm trying to point out is its hard to knock the NFL off the top because it is so ingrained in network that is society. It has all the legal advantages and help from other corporate entities. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was arguing that the XFL was "Gepetto the pore cobbler with hat in hand looking for a handout". I've never once made that assertion.
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Old 02-12-2020, 12:19 PM   #38
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Re: N/S Your take on the XFL

Originally Posted by hitta View Post
I've already said I had high hopes for the XFL,because it had strong financial backing. I've already stated that I think there are several things that the XFL does better than the NFL and I'd love to see the XFL really challenge the NFL. The only thing I'm trying to point out is its hard to knock the NFL off the top because it is so ingrained in network that is society. It has all the legal advantages and help from other corporate entities. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was arguing that the XFL was "Gepetto the pore cobbler with hat in hand looking for a handout". I've never once made that assertion.
I see where you are coming from, but, as much as you would love to see the XFL "challenge" the NFL it is never going to happen nor do they want it to happen. The only thing that could keep the XFL viable for the long term would be for them to stick to their model of keeping the league affordable and entertaining for the potential fans and being a complimentary league to the NFL. Any attempt to actually compete would be financially suicidal and they know that.
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Old 02-12-2020, 04:18 PM   #39
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Re: N/S Your take on the XFL

Think about this from the perspective of a player.

You have spent your whole life training and working your ass off through high school and then college to make it in football.

You go to the NFL where you are guaranteed to at least make a seven figure income even on the cheapest deal, and where you're going to make millions if you're drafted in the early rounds.

Or you go to the XFL for table scraps.

I think most of the fans are just angry at the NFL (especially this fan base) and not looking at this from other perspectives. This XFL thing is going to fold the way it did the last time.

They're not going to challenge the NFL. This is definitely not an AFL type situation where players actually wanted to go there.

I don't trust Vince McMahon either. Look what he has done to WWE. Wrestling ratings are at all time lows and have been sinking since the 2000s. Most wrestling fans have been talking about how much he has screwed up their entertainment sport for years now.

XFL will go 2 years max.
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Old 02-13-2020, 08:57 AM   #40
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Re: N/S Your take on the XFL

Originally Posted by CHA_CHING View Post
Think about this from the perspective of a player.

You have spent your whole life training and working your ass off through high school and then college to make it in football.

You go to the NFL where you are guaranteed to at least make a seven figure income even on the cheapest deal, and where you're going to make millions if you're drafted in the early rounds.

Or you go to the XFL for table scraps.

I think most of the fans are just angry at the NFL (especially this fan base)


XFL will go 2 years max.


The Player? The Player?

Do the math. 128 DI FBS college teams fielding as many as 85 players.

That's 10,880 players all dreaming of a professional career.

In 2019 the total number of NFL players making up the final 53 man rosters was 1,696!!!

This leaves 9,184 players without jobs.

"SETTLING FOR XFL TABLE SCRAPS"?
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