2022 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints

bobdog86 · 01-11-2021, 07:35 PM

Cap schmap, least we aren’t the eagles.

bobdog86 · 01-11-2021, 07:36 PM

Seriously, I’m sure the Mick has a plan.

WW_Who_Dat · 01-11-2021, 07:55 PM

17 game season in 2021 ... can anybody see the QB room remaining intact sign Winston on a prove it year. Maybe Brees isn’t number 1 QB coming out of camp, doubtful, but with a training camp under Winston’s belt it would be a good competition and would have a great backup QB whatever the out come. Taysom is still on contract for another year or two and no Brees dead money. Still have to make some hard decisions on skill positions but we would be better off with Brees than the cap hit and him in the broadcast booth.

TheOak · 01-12-2021, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

If Brees truly retires, doesn't the cap treat retirement $ differently?

No, retirement is treated the same way as cut.

BUT

We are looking at Drew's contract as a finite document. That contract can be restructured in the off season and look completely different for his retirement. Both Loomis and Drew knew what they were getting into with that contract and it is written to allow Drew to decide his own destiny. If they both agree they can change it at will as long as the bonus/guaranteed portion is satisfied against the cap.

A restructured contract could be 1 year for league minimum and all the rest converted to NLTBE bonus which doesn't hit the cap.

NLTBE (Not Likely To Be Earned) Pay him his $1.3M league minimum salary, put the remaining into a $22M 4,000 yard passing bonus which wont count against the cap for 2021 as he didn't throw for 4000 in 2020.

Drew retires and we eat league minimum.

AsylumGuido · 01-12-2021, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

No, retirement is treated the same way as cut.

BUT

We are looking at Drew's contract as a finite document. That contract can be restructured in the off season and look completely different for his retirement. Both Loomis and Drew knew what they were getting into with that contract and it is written to allow Drew to decide his own destiny. If they both agree they can change it at will as long as the bonus/guaranteed portion is satisfied against the cap.

A restructured contract could be 1 year for league minimum and all the rest converted to NLTBE bonus which doesn't hit the cap.

NLTBE (Not Likely To Be Earned) Pay him his $1.3M league minimum salary, put the remaining into a $22M 4,000 yard passing bonus which wont count against the cap for 2021 as he didn't throw for 4000 in 2020.

Drew retires and we eat league minimum.

The issue would be getting the league to approve. Contracts dealing with cap avoidance have been shot down recently. I know of two sign and trade type deals that were denied for those reasons in the past year or so.

Looking a little further I am not sure guarantees can even be converted to NLTBE as it is an incentive rather than a bonus.

"NFL contracts can have incentives that can give the player money if the player hits certain thresholds set in the contract. There are two types of incentives: Likely to be earned (LTBE) and Not likely to be earned (NLTBE). Incentives are classified as LTBE or NLTBE based on what the player did in the previous season in relation to the incentive. If a player would have earned the incentive in the previous year, the incentive is considered LTBE and the opposite is true for NLTBE. LTBE incentives count against the current year’s cap space for the team while NLTBE incentives are charged against the following year’s cap space. Some examples of incentives would be making the Pro Bowl, catching a certain amount of receptions, or based on playing time."

According to this it appears that even if allowed somehow the amount would still hit the cap the following year with NLTBE.

TheOak · 01-12-2021, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

The issue would be getting the league to approve. Contracts dealing with cap avoidance have been shot down recently. I know of two sign and trade type deals that were denied for those reasons in the past year or so.

Looking a little further I am not sure guarantees can even be converted to NLTBE as it is an incentive rather than a bonus.

"NFL contracts can have incentives that can give the player money if the player hits certain thresholds set in the contract. There are two types of incentives: Likely to be earned (LTBE) and Not likely to be earned (NLTBE). Incentives are classified as LTBE or NLTBE based on what the player did in the previous season in relation to the incentive. If a player would have earned the incentive in the previous year, the incentive is considered LTBE and the opposite is true for NLTBE. LTBE incentives count against the current year’s cap space for the team while NLTBE incentives are charged against the following year’s cap space. Some examples of incentives would be making the Pro Bowl, catching a certain amount of receptions, or based on playing time."

According to this it appears that even if allowed somehow the amount would still hit the cap the following year with NLTBE.

Read a little more than you quote and you'll see that LTBE that are charged against the cap but not earned are credited to the following years cap, and NLTBE that are not earned are not charged to any cap.

Guido an incentive is a bonus, not sure how you differentiate between the two words other than spelling.. and if you read what I wrote as long as the guaranteed portion is satisfied against the cap.

This is not a trade, you are ignoring context and context matters.

I am trying to figure out a valid point of your reply, it doesn't seem you paid attention to what I wrote or whats available on the internet about the cap. Just wanted to post words?

AsylumGuido · 01-12-2021, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Read a little more than you quote and you'll see that LTBE that are charged against the cap but not earned are credited to the following years cap, and NLTBE that are not earned are not charged to any cap.

Guido an incentive is a bonus, not sure how you differentiate between the two words other than spelling..

This is not a trade, you are ignoring context and context matters.

It doesn't matter if it is a trade or not. The league still has to approve of ALL contracts. Brees has already received the cash for those guarantees remaining on his current contract. What I was trying to point out is that even if there was some sort of way to convert the guarantees which were the result of signing bonuses into some sort of incentive (which I still believe couldn't be done), then the league would surely disallow the contract. The sign and trade scenarios were just examples of cap manipulative contracts denied by the league.

I repeat, Brees has already cashed those checks. The remaining guarantees are the accounting offsets for the payments already received. There's no way the league would allow them to just go away.

The only way to make those guarantees leave the books would be if Brees paid the Saints back $22.5 million in cash. If that would even be allowed I can't see that happening either.

TheOak · 01-12-2021, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

It doesn't matter if it is a trade or not. The league still has to approve of ALL contracts. Brees has already received the cash for those guarantees remaining on his current contract. What I was trying to point out is that even if there was some sort of way to convert the guarantees which were the result of signing bonuses into some sort of incentive (which I still believe couldn't be done), then the league would surely disallow the contract. The sign and trade scenarios were just examples of cap manipulative contracts denied by the league.

I repeat, Brees has already cashed those checks. The remaining guarantees are the accounting offsets for the payments already received. There's no way the league would allow them to just go away.

The only way to make those guarantees leave the books would be if Brees paid the Saints back $22.5 million in cash. If that would even be allowed I can't see that happening either.

Prove he cashed those checks, show the check with the deposit receipt, or have a seat.

Only $25M was guaranteed and the remaining $25M is 2021 money not guaranteed and uncashed as a check.

AsylumGuido · 01-12-2021, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Prove he cashed those checks, show the check with the deposit receipt, or have a seat.

Only $25M was guaranteed and the remaining $25M is 2021 money not guaranteed and uncashed as a check.

The $22.65 million is signing bonus already paid and has to be accounted for. That's the dead money we are talking about. Are you confusing the $25 million in base salary contracted for 2021? That CAN be restructured IF he returns and plays. If not it isn't on the books at all.

Drew Brees Spotrac

You are correct in that only $25 million of the contract signed in 2020 was guaranteed, but you are omitting the $4.25M of salary and an $11.95M roster bonus converted into a signing bonus in 2019 and prorated out, a portion of which is still included in the dead money.

MatthewT · 01-12-2021, 01:20 PM

It shouldn't be that complicated. All that is really happening is the Saints are likely out of the running for any big money QB until they are completely done with Drew's cap hit. That should be either 1 or 2 years after his retirement. After a 1 or 2, then can go after big money guy, Hill can be that big money guy if he performs.

01-11-2021, 07:35 PM	#11
bobdog86 Site Donor Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,414	Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Cap schmap, least we aren’t the eagles.

01-11-2021, 07:36 PM	#12
bobdog86 Site Donor Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,414	Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Seriously, I’m sure the Mick has a plan. Thirty3 likes this.

01-11-2021, 07:55 PM	#13
WW_Who_Dat 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Lafayette, La and Valencia CA Posts: 1,270 Blog Entries: 1	Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints 17 game season in 2021 ... can anybody see the QB room remaining intact sign Winston on a prove it year. Maybe Brees isn’t number 1 QB coming out of camp, doubtful, but with a training camp under Winston’s belt it would be a good competition and would have a great backup QB whatever the out come. Taysom is still on contract for another year or two and no Brees dead money. Still have to make some hard decisions on skill positions but we would be better off with Brees than the cap hit and him in the broadcast booth.

01-12-2021, 07:33 AM	#14
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by SmashMouth If Brees truly retires, doesn't the cap treat retirement $ differently? No, retirement is treated the same way as cut. BUT We are looking at Drew's contract as a finite document. That contract can be restructured in the off season and look completely different for his retirement. Both Loomis and Drew knew what they were getting into with that contract and it is written to allow Drew to decide his own destiny. If they both agree they can change it at will as long as the bonus/guaranteed portion is satisfied against the cap. A restructured contract could be 1 year for league minimum and all the rest converted to NLTBE bonus which doesn't hit the cap. NLTBE (Not Likely To Be Earned) Pay him his $1.3M league minimum salary, put the remaining into a $22M 4,000 yard passing bonus which wont count against the cap for 2021 as he didn't throw for 4000 in 2020. Drew retires and we eat league minimum. Rugby Saint II likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

01-12-2021, 09:26 AM	#15
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,274	Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by TheOak No, retirement is treated the same way as cut. BUT We are looking at Drew's contract as a finite document. That contract can be restructured in the off season and look completely different for his retirement. Both Loomis and Drew knew what they were getting into with that contract and it is written to allow Drew to decide his own destiny. If they both agree they can change it at will as long as the bonus/guaranteed portion is satisfied against the cap. A restructured contract could be 1 year for league minimum and all the rest converted to NLTBE bonus which doesn't hit the cap. NLTBE (Not Likely To Be Earned) Pay him his $1.3M league minimum salary, put the remaining into a $22M 4,000 yard passing bonus which wont count against the cap for 2021 as he didn't throw for 4000 in 2020. Drew retires and we eat league minimum. The issue would be getting the league to approve. Contracts dealing with cap avoidance have been shot down recently. I know of two sign and trade type deals that were denied for those reasons in the past year or so. Looking a little further I am not sure guarantees can even be converted to NLTBE as it is an incentive rather than a bonus. "NFL contracts can have incentives that can give the player money if the player hits certain thresholds set in the contract. There are two types of incentives: Likely to be earned (LTBE) and Not likely to be earned (NLTBE). Incentives are classified as LTBE or NLTBE based on what the player did in the previous season in relation to the incentive. If a player would have earned the incentive in the previous year, the incentive is considered LTBE and the opposite is true for NLTBE. LTBE incentives count against the current year’s cap space for the team while NLTBE incentives are charged against the following year’s cap space. Some examples of incentives would be making the Pro Bowl, catching a certain amount of receptions, or based on playing time." According to this it appears that even if allowed somehow the amount would still hit the cap the following year with NLTBE.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

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01-12-2021, 12:06 PM	#16
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by AsylumGuido The issue would be getting the league to approve. Contracts dealing with cap avoidance have been shot down recently. I know of two sign and trade type deals that were denied for those reasons in the past year or so. Looking a little further I am not sure guarantees can even be converted to NLTBE as it is an incentive rather than a bonus. "NFL contracts can have incentives that can give the player money if the player hits certain thresholds set in the contract. There are two types of incentives: Likely to be earned (LTBE) and Not likely to be earned (NLTBE). Incentives are classified as LTBE or NLTBE based on what the player did in the previous season in relation to the incentive. If a player would have earned the incentive in the previous year, the incentive is considered LTBE and the opposite is true for NLTBE. LTBE incentives count against the current year’s cap space for the team while NLTBE incentives are charged against the following year’s cap space. Some examples of incentives would be making the Pro Bowl, catching a certain amount of receptions, or based on playing time." According to this it appears that even if allowed somehow the amount would still hit the cap the following year with NLTBE. Read a little more than you quote and you'll see that LTBE that are charged against the cap but not earned are credited to the following years cap, and NLTBE that are not earned are not charged to any cap. Guido an incentive is a bonus, not sure how you differentiate between the two words other than spelling.. and if you read what I wrote as long as the guaranteed portion is satisfied against the cap. This is not a trade, you are ignoring context and context matters. I am trying to figure out a valid point of your reply, it doesn't seem you paid attention to what I wrote or whats available on the internet about the cap. Just wanted to post words?
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau Last edited by TheOak; 01-12-2021 at 12:21 PM..

01-12-2021, 12:32 PM	#17
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,274	Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by TheOak Read a little more than you quote and you'll see that LTBE that are charged against the cap but not earned are credited to the following years cap, and NLTBE that are not earned are not charged to any cap. Guido an incentive is a bonus, not sure how you differentiate between the two words other than spelling.. This is not a trade, you are ignoring context and context matters. It doesn't matter if it is a trade or not. The league still has to approve of ALL contracts. Brees has already received the cash for those guarantees remaining on his current contract. What I was trying to point out is that even if there was some sort of way to convert the guarantees which were the result of signing bonuses into some sort of incentive (which I still believe couldn't be done), then the league would surely disallow the contract. The sign and trade scenarios were just examples of cap manipulative contracts denied by the league. I repeat, Brees has already cashed those checks. The remaining guarantees are the accounting offsets for the payments already received. There's no way the league would allow them to just go away. The only way to make those guarantees leave the books would be if Brees paid the Saints back $22.5 million in cash. If that would even be allowed I can't see that happening either.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

01-12-2021, 12:54 PM	#18
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by AsylumGuido It doesn't matter if it is a trade or not. The league still has to approve of ALL contracts. Brees has already received the cash for those guarantees remaining on his current contract. What I was trying to point out is that even if there was some sort of way to convert the guarantees which were the result of signing bonuses into some sort of incentive (which I still believe couldn't be done), then the league would surely disallow the contract. The sign and trade scenarios were just examples of cap manipulative contracts denied by the league. I repeat, Brees has already cashed those checks. The remaining guarantees are the accounting offsets for the payments already received. There's no way the league would allow them to just go away. The only way to make those guarantees leave the books would be if Brees paid the Saints back $22.5 million in cash. If that would even be allowed I can't see that happening either. Prove he cashed those checks, show the check with the deposit receipt, or have a seat. Only $25M was guaranteed and the remaining $25M is 2021 money not guaranteed and uncashed as a check.

01-12-2021, 01:07 PM	#19
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,274	Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints Originally Posted by TheOak Prove he cashed those checks, show the check with the deposit receipt, or have a seat. Only $25M was guaranteed and the remaining $25M is 2021 money not guaranteed and uncashed as a check. The $22.65 million is signing bonus already paid and has to be accounted for. That's the dead money we are talking about. Are you confusing the $25 million in base salary contracted for 2021? That CAN be restructured IF he returns and plays. If not it isn't on the books at all. Drew Brees Spotrac You are correct in that only $25 million of the contract signed in 2020 was guaranteed, but you are omitting the $4.25M of salary and an $11.95M roster bonus converted into a signing bonus in 2019 and prorated out, a portion of which is still included in the dead money.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

01-12-2021, 01:20 PM	#20
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,729	Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints It shouldn't be that complicated. All that is really happening is the Saints are likely out of the running for any big money QB until they are completely done with Drew's cap hit. That should be either 1 or 2 years after his retirement. After a 1 or 2, then can go after big money guy, Hill can be that big money guy if he performs.