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2022 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by AsylumGuido The issue would be getting the league to approve. Contracts dealing with cap avoidance have been shot down recently. I know of two sign and trade type deals that were denied for those reasons in the ...

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Old 01-12-2021, 11:06 AM   #1
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Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
The issue would be getting the league to approve. Contracts dealing with cap avoidance have been shot down recently. I know of two sign and trade type deals that were denied for those reasons in the past year or so.

Looking a little further I am not sure guarantees can even be converted to NLTBE as it is an incentive rather than a bonus.

"NFL contracts can have incentives that can give the player money if the player hits certain thresholds set in the contract. There are two types of incentives: Likely to be earned (LTBE) and Not likely to be earned (NLTBE). Incentives are classified as LTBE or NLTBE based on what the player did in the previous season in relation to the incentive. If a player would have earned the incentive in the previous year, the incentive is considered LTBE and the opposite is true for NLTBE. LTBE incentives count against the current year’s cap space for the team while NLTBE incentives are charged against the following year’s cap space. Some examples of incentives would be making the Pro Bowl, catching a certain amount of receptions, or based on playing time."

According to this it appears that even if allowed somehow the amount would still hit the cap the following year with NLTBE.
Read a little more than you quote and you'll see that LTBE that are charged against the cap but not earned are credited to the following years cap, and NLTBE that are not earned are not charged to any cap.

Guido an incentive is a bonus, not sure how you differentiate between the two words other than spelling.. and if you read what I wrote as long as the guaranteed portion is satisfied against the cap.

This is not a trade, you are ignoring context and context matters.

I am trying to figure out a valid point of your reply, it doesn't seem you paid attention to what I wrote or whats available on the internet about the cap. Just wanted to post words?

It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

Last edited by TheOak; 01-12-2021 at 11:21 AM..
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Old 01-12-2021, 11:32 AM   #2
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Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints

Originally Posted by TheOak View Post
Read a little more than you quote and you'll see that LTBE that are charged against the cap but not earned are credited to the following years cap, and NLTBE that are not earned are not charged to any cap.

Guido an incentive is a bonus, not sure how you differentiate between the two words other than spelling..

This is not a trade, you are ignoring context and context matters.
It doesn't matter if it is a trade or not. The league still has to approve of ALL contracts. Brees has already received the cash for those guarantees remaining on his current contract. What I was trying to point out is that even if there was some sort of way to convert the guarantees which were the result of signing bonuses into some sort of incentive (which I still believe couldn't be done), then the league would surely disallow the contract. The sign and trade scenarios were just examples of cap manipulative contracts denied by the league.

I repeat, Brees has already cashed those checks. The remaining guarantees are the accounting offsets for the payments already received. There's no way the league would allow them to just go away.

The only way to make those guarantees leave the books would be if Brees paid the Saints back $22.5 million in cash. If that would even be allowed I can't see that happening either.

“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill
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Old 01-12-2021, 11:54 AM   #3
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Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
It doesn't matter if it is a trade or not. The league still has to approve of ALL contracts. Brees has already received the cash for those guarantees remaining on his current contract. What I was trying to point out is that even if there was some sort of way to convert the guarantees which were the result of signing bonuses into some sort of incentive (which I still believe couldn't be done), then the league would surely disallow the contract. The sign and trade scenarios were just examples of cap manipulative contracts denied by the league.

I repeat, Brees has already cashed those checks. The remaining guarantees are the accounting offsets for the payments already received. There's no way the league would allow them to just go away.

The only way to make those guarantees leave the books would be if Brees paid the Saints back $22.5 million in cash. If that would even be allowed I can't see that happening either.
Prove he cashed those checks, show the check with the deposit receipt, or have a seat.

Only $25M was guaranteed and the remaining $25M is 2021 money not guaranteed and uncashed as a check.
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Old 01-12-2021, 12:07 PM   #4
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Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints

Originally Posted by TheOak View Post
Prove he cashed those checks, show the check with the deposit receipt, or have a seat.

Only $25M was guaranteed and the remaining $25M is 2021 money not guaranteed and uncashed as a check.
The $22.65 million is signing bonus already paid and has to be accounted for. That's the dead money we are talking about. Are you confusing the $25 million in base salary contracted for 2021? That CAN be restructured IF he returns and plays. If not it isn't on the books at all.

Drew Brees Spotrac

You are correct in that only $25 million of the contract signed in 2020 was guaranteed, but you are omitting the $4.25M of salary and an $11.95M roster bonus converted into a signing bonus in 2019 and prorated out, a portion of which is still included in the dead money.

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Old 01-12-2021, 12:46 PM   #5
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Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
The $22.65 million is signing bonus already paid and has to be accounted for. That's the dead money we are talking about. Are you confusing the $25 million in base salary contracted for 2021? That CAN be restructured IF he returns and plays. If not it isn't on the books at all.

Drew Brees Spotrac

You are correct in that only $25 million of the contract signed in 2020 was guaranteed, but you are omitting the $4.25M of salary and an $11.95M roster bonus converted into a signing bonus in 2019 and prorated out, a portion of which is still included in the dead money.
It’s $23.65 and has already been accounted for in the 2020 Cap hit because that’s when it was paid out... know what... phuck it, you are a mess to talk to.
Believe what you wish.
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Old 01-12-2021, 02:35 PM   #6
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Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints

Originally Posted by TheOak View Post
It’s $23.65 and has already been accounted for in the 2020 Cap hit because that’s when it was paid out... know what... phuck it, you are a mess to talk to.
Believe what you wish.
It is prorated signing bonus. It is NOT accounted for when paid out. That's the whole reason why they converted the 2019 base salary and roster bonus to a signing bonus and the same reason why they included a $25 million signing bonus in the 2020 contract ... so it could be paid in full up front, yet accounted for on a prorated basis partially in later years.

If a player signs a five year contract with $75 million signing bonus they are given a check for that $75 million either at the time of signing or sometime during the initial season (depending upon which is negotiated, but it has to be paid up front regardless). However, only $15 million is accounted for in that first year's cap even though it was all paid in that first year. The remainder is spread out over the remainder of the contract meaning $15 million will go to each year of the final four years, unless the player is cut, traded or retires, then the remainder is to be accounted for at that time.

I know what I'm talk about. It's not something I believe because I wish. It is the way NFL contracts work. Look at the link I provided. It shows the $22.65 million in dead cap for 2021 if Brees is cut, traded, or retires and how it is accounted for. That's all money Brees has already been paid, yet not yet accounted for in the books.

PRE-6/1 RELEASE
2021 Dead Cap: $22,650,000
2021 Cap Savings: $13,500,000
PRE-6/1 TRADE
2021 Dead Cap: $22,650,000
2021 Cap Savings: $13,500,000
POST-6/1 RELEASE
2021 Dead Cap: $11,150,000
2022 Dead Cap: $11,500,000
2021 Cap Savings: $25,000,000
POST-6/1 TRADE
2021 Dead Cap: $11,150,000
2022 Dead Cap: $11,500,000
2021 Cap Savings: $25,000,000

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Old 01-12-2021, 05:11 PM   #7
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Re: 1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread 2021 NFL Free Agency: New Orleans Saints

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
The $22.65 million is signing bonus already paid and has to be accounted for. That's the dead money we are talking about. Are you confusing the $25 million in base salary contracted for 2021? That CAN be restructured IF he returns and plays. If not it isn't on the books at all.

Drew Brees Spotrac

You are correct in that only $25 million of the contract signed in 2020 was guaranteed, but you are omitting the $4.25M of salary and an $11.95M roster bonus converted into a signing bonus in 2019 and prorated out, a portion of which is still included in the dead money.
Was the signing bonus paid in full, or was it pro-rated?

According to Over the Cap (source: https://overthecap.com/player/drew-brees/1492/), Brees' contract shows pro-rated bonus (and dead cap money figures), of...
  • $11.15M in 2021

  • $5.75M in 2022

  • $5.75M in 2023

...if he's cut after 1 June 2021 this summer...
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