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Why pick a qb?

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; i'll put it as simply as i see it, lienart played with great talent around him. vince young played with good talent around him. lienart played with probably 6 other players on offense that will be top 25 picks in ...

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Old 01-14-2006, 05:51 PM   #41
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i'll put it as simply as i see it, lienart played with great talent around him. vince young played with good talent around him. lienart played with probably 6 other players on offense that will be top 25 picks in the nfl draft on offense alone. vince probably had besides himself 1 maybe 2 on offense that will be top 40 picks in the nfl on offense.
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Old 01-14-2006, 05:51 PM   #42
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Old 01-14-2006, 05:56 PM   #43
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that may be a fair take win. but that may also have something to do with their leading rusher being a freshamn and both leading wideouts being soph.
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Old 01-14-2006, 06:32 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Winwin
What do you judge that on? The fact that Leinart was graded higher than Dorsey and Palmer? The fact that he's the highest graded QB since Peyton Manning? Or should we just assume that your a NFL talent scout?

dang, man nobody wants to get personal about this. we are simply giving you our opinions, gut feelings... we've seen this soooooooo many times from qb's that played with great talent around them at college and went into the nfl and were total busts. if we picked him my first reaction would be total disgust but i'm a saintfan and would cheer come sunday, but i would roast your butt in this forum once he screwed up. take it easy pal, no attack towards you.
We knew what kind of QB Dorsey was coming out of college. That's why he went in the 7th round....

The waiting drove me mad....
I don't want to hear from those that know...
Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed


Eddie is a....draftnik?
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Old 01-14-2006, 06:46 PM   #45
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Palmer is physically superior in terms of mobility, arm strength. I made the comparasion to Dorsey, great college QB, not a great arm, surrounded by top talent. As for Young, he had talent around him. However, Reymonce Taylor/Jamal Charles are not Lendale White/Reggie Bush. Limas Sweed/Pittman are not Dwayne Jarret/Steve Smith. Jarrett,Bush,White will all be top 15 picks. Where have you seen such a high grade on Leinart? If Haslett likes him that should say enough
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Old 01-14-2006, 09:09 PM   #46
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I disagree with the QB position having the most influence over the outcome of the game that is so wrong. If you have an offensive line to block for a good qb and a provide time for the QB and WR's... if you have a D that can prevent big plays then the QB becomes a cog in a wheel. Plummer isn't all that of a great QB and the team kicks ass.
deuce kind of already said this, but....i said SINGLE position. please read what people type before you comment.

moving on...
maybe the reason why there are so many talented and high quality offensive players on USC because leinart has the ability to make other players look better than they are (see peyton manning making stokley and marcus pollard look talented, as well as brady making all his wrs except branch look much better than they really are). also, why is it so easy to say all the other players on USC's offense are real nfl prospects, but lienart isn't.

deuce,
sometimes i think you and are are some of the only ones who know what we are talking about. chermie you do alright too. haha
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Old 01-14-2006, 09:20 PM   #47
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Where have you seen such a high grade on Leinart?
Mel Kiper's grade. I've already posted this before, but you might not have seen it. Anyways, he graded Matt Leinart at a 98. (Reggie Bush is a 98 also)

Just in case your wondering, VY is graded as a 93.
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Old 01-15-2006, 12:56 AM   #48
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Re: RE: re: papz

Originally Posted by TheDeuce
First pick in the second round. Jacobs and a few others will be available.
Holy hell you people are ridculous. Look at the top passers from 2005...

NAME COM ATT PCT YDS YPA LNG TD TD% INT INT% SK SYD RAT
1 P. Manning QB, IND 305 453 67.3 3747 8.27 80 28 6.2 10 2.2 17.0 81 104.1
2 C. Palmer QB, CIN 345 509 67.8 3836 7.54 70 32 6.3 12 2.4 19.0 105 101.1
3 B. Roethlisberger QB, PIT 168 268 62.7 2385 8.90 85 17 6.3 9 3.4 23.0 129 98.6
4 M. Hasselbeck QB, SEA 294 449 65.5 3459 7.70 56 24 5.3 9 2.0 24.0 154 98.2
5 M. Bulger QB, STL 192 287 66.9 2297 8.00 57 14 4.9 9 3.1 26.0 188 94.4
6 Tom Brady QB, NWE 334 530 63.0 4110 7.76 71 26 4.9 14 2.6 26.0 188 92.3
7 J. Plummer QB, DEN 277 456 60.7 3366 7.38 72 18 3.9 7 1.5 22.0 135 90.2
8 T. Green QB, KAN 317 507 62.5 4014 7.92 60 17 3.4 10 2.0 32.0 204 90.1
9 B. Leftwich QB, JAC 175 302 57.9 2123 7.03 45 15 5.0 5 1.7 23.0 110 89.3
10 Drew Brees QB, SDG 323 500 64.6 3576 7.15 54 24 4.8 15 3.0 27.0 223 89.2
11 B. Johnson QB, MIN 184 294 62.6 1885 6.41 80 12 4.1 4 1.4 23.0 134 88.9
12 J. Delhomme QB, CAR 262 435 60.2 3421 7.86 80 24 5.5 16 3.7 28.0 214 88.1
13 M. Brunell QB, WAS 262 454 57.7 3050 6.72 78 23 5.1 10 2.2 27.0 213 85.9
14 K. Warner QB, ARI 242 375 64.5 2713 7.24 63 11 2.9 9 2.4 23.0 158 85.8
15 K. Holcomb QB, BUF 155 230 67.4 1509 6.56 65 10 4.3 8 3.5 17.0 140 85.6
16 D. McNabb QB, PHI 211 357 59.1 2507 7.02 91 16 4.5 9 2.5 19.0 112 85.0
17 D. Bledsoe QB, DAL 300 499 60.1 3639 7.29 71 23 4.6 17 3.4 49.0 295 83.7
18 S. McNair QB, TEN 292 476 61.3 3161 6.64 57 16 3.4 11 2.3 20.0 134 82.4
19 C. Simms QB, TAM 191 313 61.0 2035 6.50 78 10 3.2 7 2.2 29.0 205 81.4
20 K. Collins QB, OAK 302 565 53.5 3759 6.65 79 20 3.5 12 2.1 39.0 261 77.3
21 David Carr QB, HOU 256 423 60.5 2488 5.88 53 14 3.3 11 2.6 68.0 424 77.2
22 T. Dilfer QB, CLE 199 333 59.8 2321 6.97 80 11 3.3 12 3.6 23.0 139 76.9
23 E. Manning QB, NYG 294 557 52.8 3762 6.75 78 24 4.3 17 3.1 28.0 184 75.9
24 J. McCown QB, ARI 163 270 60.4 1836 6.80 49 9 3.3 11 4.1 18.0 101 74.9
25 M. Vick QB, ATL 214 387 55.3 2412 6.23 58 15 3.9 13 3.4 33.0 201 73.1
26 B. Bollinger QB, NYJ 150 266 56.4 1558 5.86 60 7 2.6 6 2.3 32.0 193 72.9
27 J. Harrington QB, DET 188 330 57.0 2021 6.12 86 12 3.6 12 3.6 24.0 136 72.0
28 G. Frerotte QB, MIA 257 494 52.0 2996 6.07 60 18 3.6 13 2.6 26.0 158 71.9
29 K. Boller QB, BAL 171 293 58.4 1799 6.14 47 11 3.8 12 4.1 23.0 146 71.7
30 A. Wright QB, BAL 164 266 61.7 1582 5.95 48 6 2.3 9 3.4 19.0 147 71.7
31 B. Favre QB, GNB 372 607 61.3 3881 6.39 59 20 3.3 29 4.8 24.0 170 70.9
32 A. Brooks QB, NOR 240 431 55.7 2882 6.69 66 13 3.0 17 3.9 33.0 202 70.0
33 J. Losman QB, BUF 113 228 49.6 1340 5.88 58 8 3.5 8 3.5 26.0 197 64.9
34 Kyle Orton QB, CHI 190 368 51.6 1869 5.08 54 9 2.4 13 3.5 30.0 190 59.7\

The point is, if you want a good QB, draft him high in the first round. Peyton - #1 pick. Eli - #1 pick. Carson Palmer - #1 pick. Michael Vick - #1 pick. David Carr - #1 pick. Drew Bledsoe - #1 pick. Donovan McNabb - #2 pick. Steve McNair - #3 pick. Joey Harrington - #3 pick. Byron Leftwich - #7 pick. Ben Rothliesberger - #11 pick. Daunte Culpepper - #11 pick. Kyle Boller - # 19 pick. Rex Grossman - #22 pick.

Notice a trend anybody? Every single one of those #1, #2, or #3 picks are still in the NFL and still starting. Sure you can go ahead and say, "Well, umm, well for every Peyton Manning there's a Ryan Leaf or a Jim Druckenmiller." Right. Look at the facts people. Go ahead, I dare you to stop being ignorant to the facts. The majority of the QBs that are drafted in the top 3 are studs. Sure there are great stories like Tom Brady or Marc Bulger, but if you want a safe bet, go with the QB with the #2 pick. The chances of having a successful QB pick in the top 3 are probably 75%. The chances of having a successful starting quarterback in the later rounds is probably 1/30. You guys are worried about a bust? Trust me, you'll get a bust if you pass up on Leinart, or even Young.

I just looooove posts like this one, because it gives us the ridiculous people of B&G a chance to exercise of lil' ol' brains, and have the facts hit us right 'n the kisser...

..well, let's check it out...

"The chances of having a successful QB pick in the top 3 are probably 75%"
... hmm. ok... that would be, if I'm reading it correctly, 3 out of 4 QB's picked either #1, #2, or #3 overall are good... Well, let's see... since 1990, here are the QB's who have been picked 1,2, or 3 overall:

Jeff George #1 overall
Drew Bledsoe #1 overall successful QB
Rick Mirer #2 overall
Heath Shuler #3 overall
Steve McNair #3 overall successful QB
Peyton Manning #1 overall successful QB
Ryan Leaf #2 overall
Tim Couch #1 overall
Donovan McNabb successful QB
Akili Smith #2 overall
Michael Vick #1 overall has had some success, but is he a QB???
David Carr #1 overall
Joey Harrington #3 overall
Carson Palmer #1 overall successful QB
Eli Manning
Alex Smith.

Ok... let's see... I'm going to take out the last 2, because they don't have enough playing time to have a fair assessment. So, including Vick, who's not a good QB but has had some success, I count 6 succcessful QBs out of 14 . . I dare say that the chances of having a succcessful QB pick in the top 3 are probably less than 43%
A curious factoid: you can find only 1 Superbowl ring among all of the above, and it belongs to Bledsoe, who got it while sitting on the bench watching Brady play .

The majority of the QBs that are drafted in the top 3 are studs.
6 out of 14 a majority does not make.

but if you want a safe bet, go with the QB with the #2 pick.
QB's picked #2 overall:
Rick Mirer
Ryan Leaf
Akili Smith
Oh, yeah, safe bet to lose!!!

The point is, if you want a good QB, draft him high in the first round. Peyton - #1 pick. Eli - #1 pick. Carson Palmer - #1 pick. Michael Vick - #1 pick. David Carr - #1 pick. Drew Bledsoe - #1 pick. Donovan McNabb - #2 pick. Steve McNair - #3 pick. Joey Harrington - #3 pick. Byron Leftwich - #7 pick. Ben Rothliesberger - #11 pick. Daunte Culpepper - #11 pick. Kyle Boller - # 19 pick. Rex Grossman - #22 pick.
Woa.. hold it right there...
Kyle Boller is a good QB???
Joey Harrington is a good QB???
Michael Vick is a good QB??? He is exciting to watch, and dangerous when he runs, but good QB???
Byron Leftwich?? I don't know if I would call him "good".. tough, sure... but "good"?? I don't know
Rex Grossman?? The guy has started 2 games in the NFL and he's good???
Culpepper is good??? Guess lofting balls to Randy Moss makes anyone good.

Now, after carefully studying the passer rating table, let's see what I learned:

I learned that Trent Dilfer had a better QB rating than
Eli Manning
Michael Vick
Joey Harrington
Kyle Boller

I learned that, out of the top 10 rated passers, 5 were not picked in the 1st round.
Matt Hasselbeck
Marc Bulger
Tom Brady
Trent Green
Drew Brees

... it is obvious that, as draft rounds pass, the talent gets diluted. So the pure mathematical chances of picking a good player at ANY position, offense or defense, diminish. But there are plenty of guys who have been picked in later rounds who play as good as, if not better, than guys picked in the 1st round, and cost much much less...

Also, after the season they had, I'm pretty sure the Saints could get, if they wanted:
Kerry Collins
Joey Harrington
Kyle Boller
Which one would you like as your 2006 New Orleans Saints QB?

La neta es chida, pero inalcanzable
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Old 01-15-2006, 07:47 AM   #49
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RE: Re: RE: re: papz

nice post T-R
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Old 01-15-2006, 08:56 AM   #50
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RE: Re: RE: re: papz

it is a falacy(sp) to try to gauge success based off of where someone was picked. each is a unique situation and there are many other factors that contributed to many of those listed being busts.

to talk about a few:
Jeff George-was a solid qb over the years, but had a serious attitude problem that caused most of his failures on the field.
Heath Shuler-way over hyped at tennesse. scouts listened far too much to those volunteer fans instead of their eyes.
Ryan Leaf-played in a weak conference, was overhyped for 1 great year and 1 good year. had an attitude problem.
Tim Couch-played at kentucky. should be enough said. played in a spread pass happy offense and that was the only reason why he had anywhere close to the numbers he did. if he would have been selected in the 3 or 4th round and got a year or 2 on the bench he might have been a solid back up or decent starter.
Akili Smith -1 great year in the weak Pac-10. this was a no brainner even back when he was drafted.
Michael Vick-some consider him a bust for a #1 pick, but he is exactly what he was advertised as...a game changer. he will never be a qb in the traditional sense, instead he will always be a guy who can change a game with his athletecism and do enough with his arm to get by.
David Carr -i think carr is far from a bust. having nfl ticket, i have watched a lot of his games and he does very well when he has more than 2 seconds to throw the ball.
Joey Harrington-only had 1 great year in the weak Pac-10, but he has looked good at times. he will never prove to be worthy of a top 10 pick, but he could become a solid backup or servicable starter in the future.
Eli Manning-he has been a major success.
Alex Smith-way to early to judge yet. was not rated nearly as high as leinart. had only 1 great year and 1 good year in WAC or Pac-10(can't remember what conference Utah is in right now) both are weak conferences. with a good offensive line, good running game, and continued growth of lloyd he could be very good.
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