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Judge calls BS on Goodell

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; I do recall that now... Too bad the judge isnt a member of B&G.com...

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Old 08-16-2012, 11:15 AM   #41
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I do recall that now... Too bad the judge isnt a member of B&G.com
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:19 AM   #42
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Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell

Originally Posted by TXGSP View Post
Regardless of the evidence.... The league provided some information on this themselves...on their own website

Find this article at:
NFL denies NFLPA request for delay of penalties in Saints case - NFL.com

NFL denies NFLPA request for delay of penalties in Saints caseNFL.com Wire Reports
Published: March 16, 2012 at 02:56 a.m. Updated: March 16, 2012 at 08:43 a.m.

The NFL responded to a request by the NFL Players Association to conduct its own investigation into the New Orleans Saints' pay-for-performance scandal, SI.com reported Thursday.

The league told the union that it was free to question any current or former Saints officials about the matter, but that it would not delay announcing its own discipline. That announcement is expected to come soon.

Union officials contend they didn't learn of the investigation until shortly before the results were announced, at which point they told the league they wanted to conduct their own investigation.

"We have given your requests careful consideration, and have concluded that there is no basis for delaying the imposition of any discipline in this matter, and particularly not as it may apply to a club or any non-player employee of a club," NFL attorney Jeff Pash wrote in the letter to union general counsel Richard Berthelsen on Wednesday. "Any disciplinary action affecting any player would be imposed only in a manner consistent with our Collective Bargaining Agreement. As you know, the sole authority to investigate and impose discipline in this matter rests with the Commissioner."

Pash also wrote that team officials were free to speak with union investigators, but that the league "will neither compel them to do so, nor direct them to refrain from doing so."

The NFL says the Saints ran a program that gave thousands of dollars in payoffs to players for hits that knocked opponents out of games. The NFL said the amounts reached their peak in 2009, the season the Saints won the Super Bowl. Former Saints assistant coach Gregg Williams, now defensive coordinator of the Rams, has admitted to and apologized for running the program.

The Associated Press contributed to this story.

If the League denied the request to delay any penalties and reported it on March 16. The Saints, Loomis, and coaches' penatlies were handed out Mar 21, so why did they wait until May 02 to hand out those penalties after denying the request for delay.

Looks like this is getting interesting...

League story - Player suspensions dated May 02
Jonathan Vilma among four Saints suspended in 'bounty' case - NFL.com
From Saintsreport:

On April 23rd--a month later--in an interview with Rich Eisen on the NFLN, Goodell said this about player sanctions:

Quote:
I hope to reach those decisions very soon. We have been continuing our work. We have continued to talk to players and other people that can give us a perspective. Once we have got all the information and we feel that we are in a position to be able to issue the fairest and most thorough types of decisions, we will do that but I expect to do that soon because this is a big element to me ...

I am not necessarily looking for [the NFLPA's] recommendation on discipline. I am looking for their recommendation on what we do to continue to make our game safer and to get this type of activity out of the game and get back to the point where we have respect for each other and the game itself.
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:43 AM   #43
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Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell

Originally Posted by x626xBlack View Post
No.. that is a common misconception.... He does not have to turn over ANYTHING he used to make his judgement... At this point, or until a Judge tells him to.

He DID have to turn over ANYTHING he planned to use in that appeal hearing. For appeal hearings the big picture is not important (to the process), he only had to make available what the NFL planned to use in that specific appeals hearing so the NFLPA could prepare argument.
That's had me confused for a while now. Thanks for the explanation x626x
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:39 PM   #44
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Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell

Originally Posted by x626xBlack View Post
Speaking of discovery..... I still have a major issue with the NFLPA not subpoenaing Greg Williams, Roger Goodell, and all parties involved with the "supposed" infractions or the investigation.... So that they could get their own answers... Not getting their own evidence means they are constantly on the Defense instead of the offense... I have yet to see where the NFLPA has filed a motion to get the NFL to turn all 50k pages over.. They asked, but not legally.

NFL wins the Time of Possession battle.
We're not in discovery phase yet. That starts when the court accepts the case. They're still in hearings about whether to allow a court ordered injunction should be awarded to allow Vilma to play, and eventually whether the court accepts the case.

In this hearing phase you probably would not want to force a witness (Goodell or Gregg Williams) to go to court unless he or she has already agreed to testify. You want people to testify who support your position.

Dragging someone into court who doesn’t want to be there on your behalf could set the persons testimony against you. A hostile witness in a hearing like this can cause a lot of confusion and raise a lot of issues that muddy the original purpose of the hearing.

Hostile cross examination needs to be reserved for the actual court proceedings. In hearings, plaintiffs usually seek evidence needed from another source before getting a subpoena for a reluctant witness.

Remember, the "hearing" is not a trial. It's a time to make arguments on the merits of the case so the court will accept the case, and specifically on requests the plaintiff is making (in this case- injunction relief so Vilma can play until all the B.S. is proven to be a farce.)

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Old 08-16-2012, 12:40 PM   #45
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Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell

In retrospect the players should have appeared at the hearing. But I can understand the frustration of the players knowing it would do no good........Vilmas attorney should have made him attend. The attorneys have fought a brilliant legal battle. That one mistake does not change the fact that there are no facts presented by the NFL.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:22 PM   #46
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Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell

Originally Posted by Halo View Post
We're not in discovery phase yet. That starts when the court accepts the case. They're still in hearings about whether to allow a court ordered injunction should be awarded to allow Vilma to play, and eventually whether the court accepts the case.

In this hearing phase you probably would not want to force a witness (Goodell or Gregg Williams) to go to court unless he or she has already agreed to testify. You want people to testify who support your position.

Dragging someone into court who doesn’t want to be there on your behalf could set the persons testimony against you. A hostile witness in a hearing like this can cause a lot of confusion and raise a lot of issues that muddy the original purpose of the hearing.

Hostile cross examination needs to be reserved for the actual court proceedings. In hearings, plaintiffs usually seek evidence needed from another source before getting a subpoena for a reluctant witness.

Remember, the "hearing" is not a trial. It's a time to make arguments on the merits of the case so the court will accept the case, and specifically on requests the plaintiff is making (in this case- injunction relief so Vilma can play until all the B.S. is proven to be a farce.)
I did not mean make them "testify", I meant make them show up for deposition. Casual format, questions by the NFLPA lawyers.. answers by the person deposed, all sworn, all recorded.

When the trial comes around those depositions are used.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:42 PM   #47
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Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell

Here's putting this into perspective again about their "pages of evidence". The Obama Care bill is roughly 2,400 pages, yet the NFL has 50,000? Well, at least these two tie in together. If Vilma remains suspended, he will have health insurance to get that knee checked again.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:54 PM   #48
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Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell

Originally Posted by D_it_up View Post
Here's putting this into perspective again about their "pages of evidence". The Obama Care bill is roughly 2,400 pages, yet the NFL has 50,000? Well, at least these two tie in together. If Vilma remains suspended, he will have health insurance to get that knee checked again.
So basically what you're saying is Der Kommisar (channeling Pelosi) said:

"I had to suspend them, to see what kind of evidence there was."
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Old 08-16-2012, 03:45 PM   #49
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Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell

Via twitter a few min ago....

@SportsLawGuy
Goodell just submitted decleration to court saying he had decided to punish players at the same time as coaches but delayed at PA's request.

@SportsLawGuy
Ie, commish did not prejudge when he publicly announced Vilma's involvement. He had already determined Vilma's guilt (as he has the right to do)

@dkaplanSBJ
NFL has responded to La. judge's request 4 timing on when the NFLPA asked the league to defer on bounty punishment: Mar 7 is the answer.



So it was March 7th but its well document that Goodell denied their request but then proceeded to wait until May 2nd to actually lay down suspensions on the players.

Per Florio's article on PFT:

"As Jim Trotter of SI.com reported on March 16, the NFL told the NFLPA in a letter dated March 14 that “there is no basis for delaying the imposition of any discipline in this matter.”

Based on that letter, it appears that, yes, the NFLPA made the request but that the NFL actually told them, no, we’re not going to do what you want us to do.

Then there’s the fact that Commissioner Roger Goodell said in an April 24 interview with the league’s in-house TV network that decisions still had not been made as to the players.

“I hope to reach those decisions very soon,” Goodell said. “We have been continuing our work. We have continued to talk to players and other people that can give us a perspective. Once we have got all the information and we feel that we are in a position to be able to issue the fairest and most thorough types of decisions, we will do that but I expect to do that soon because this is a big element to me.”
March 21 suddenly looms large over bounty case | ProFootballTalk


NFL is grasping at straws now cuz no doubt NFLPA is going to counter that decleration with this info.
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Old 08-16-2012, 04:08 PM   #50
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Re: Judge calls BS on Goodell

Originally Posted by NuNu318 View Post
Via twitter a few min ago....

@SportsLawGuy
Goodell just submitted decleration to court saying he had decided to punish players at the same time as coaches but delayed at PA's request.

@SportsLawGuy
Ie, commish did not prejudge when he publicly announced Vilma's involvement. He had already determined Vilma's guilt (as he has the right to do)

@dkaplanSBJ
NFL has responded to La. judge's request 4 timing on when the NFLPA asked the league to defer on bounty punishment: Mar 7 is the answer.



So it was March 7th but its well document that Goodell denied their request but then proceeded to wait until May 2nd to actually lay down suspensions on the players.

Per Florio's article on PFT:

"As Jim Trotter of SI.com reported on March 16, the NFL told the NFLPA in a letter dated March 14 that “there is no basis for delaying the imposition of any discipline in this matter.”

Based on that letter, it appears that, yes, the NFLPA made the request but that the NFL actually told them, no, we’re not going to do what you want us to do.

Then there’s the fact that Commissioner Roger Goodell said in an April 24 interview with the league’s in-house TV network that decisions still had not been made as to the players.

“I hope to reach those decisions very soon,” Goodell said. “We have been continuing our work. We have continued to talk to players and other people that can give us a perspective. Once we have got all the information and we feel that we are in a position to be able to issue the fairest and most thorough types of decisions, we will do that but I expect to do that soon because this is a big element to me.”
March 21 suddenly looms large over bounty case | ProFootballTalk


NFL is grasping at straws now cuz no doubt NFLPA is going to counter that decleration with this info.

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