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Now THIS is an interesting mock

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Kool, you were going along pretty well until this: he\'s managed the fumbles 14 last year, 13 this year. Now if you wanna say he and the team have better learned how to jump on his fumbles, that is a ...

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Old 01-12-2005, 10:57 AM   #21
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Now THIS is an interesting mock

Kool, you were going along pretty well until this:

he\'s managed the fumbles
14 last year, 13 this year. Now if you wanna say he and the team have better learned how to jump on his fumbles, that is a true statement. He lost 11 last year and only two this year. So he did get better and those around him also about picking up the fumbles. Kinda like that Leon reference we all use. \"If my team had jumped on those fumbles.........\"

he\'s made few turn overs - he\'s improving.
Ouch again. 16 INTs. That\'s a few? 19 TOs last year, 18 this year, again cause we jumped on the ball better. He has absolutely NOT gotten better at the turnovers. I can\'t even guess how many of those came in the red zone. I know one fumble against AZ and one INT against Dallas for sure. There was another game, I think it was the first Carolina game wher ehe threw an INT in to the endzone from the 5 or something. And it doesn\'t count the turnovers that give the opposing offense the ball in their red zone. Seattle game for sure. So yes I am pretty confident he could not handle a \"manage the game\" role. Especially for a qb who proclaims himself \"great.\' Can\'t be just a manage the game qb and be great. Not Leon\'s style.
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Old 01-12-2005, 11:50 AM   #22
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Now THIS is an interesting mock

That was supposed to be \"fewer\", not few.

Here is the improvement: last year the line played much better. He fumbled a lot, and it was almost entirely his fault. This year, the brutal punishment and the having to play on the fly, I\'d say fewer of the TOs were his fault and his fault alone - this represents improvement.

This year\'s Brooks combined with last year\'s line = not too bad.

Otherwise, you caught me on that one. I didn\'t realize there were 16 INTs this year; I guess I wasn\'t paying attention to the ones that didn\'t happen in the ol\' red zone.

Either way, it doesn\'t negate the point about being 500. While I\'ll concede that it is rational to hold that Brooks may not be able to \"manage\" the game - it seems we may be at a stale mate on that one (as far as I\'m concerned), unless good reply is given to my argument here.

[Edited on 12/1/2005 by JKool]

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 01-12-2005, 11:56 AM   #23
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I\'m not sure about this, since I didn\'t get to see too many of the games, but fumbles where you lose the ball are different from the ones you don\'t (in a way that is different from merely being a turn over).

Fumbles where recovery of the ball are likely usually occur near the LOS; thus, when Brooks lost the ball and it was recovered by our guys it wasn\'t merely Brooks dancing around and getting in trouble, it was Brooks getting hit before he was ready and some lineman was watching closely enough to Brooks getting creamed to jump on the ball. Thus, the recovery rate indicates that it was more on the line than on Brooks this time around.

This is by no means an iron clad argument, but it is worth considering when considering whether or not improvement was made.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 01-12-2005, 12:47 PM   #24
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Just can\'t see us getting better without better play at the QB spot. Whether AB stays or goes....we need to elminate the QB mistakes along with beefing up the defense otherwise we\'re 8-8 again and this discussion is useless.
Ball control is probably the answer for this team with a minimal change in personnel. The bottom line is that you can\'t put every game in Leon\'s hands and expect to be better than 8-8. With 2 new OT\'s and a slimmer Deuce, we could play ball control, keep our defense off the field and have a better chance of winning by purposely taking the ball out of Leon\'s hands.

Let Leon throw enough 8 yard hooks to keep defenses from putting 8-9 in the box and depend on our WR\'s to get yards after catch or to put us in more 3rd and 2 rather than 3rd and 13. At any rate, by taking the ball away from the QB we can eliminate more of the decisions he has to make and hopefully keep his faulty decsions from being more damaging than they really have to be.

With that sort of offense, I\'m not sure why we need to pay a QB 6 million a year though.

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Old 01-12-2005, 12:59 PM   #25
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With that sort of offense, I\'m not sure why we need to pay a QB 6 million a year though
Totally agree BMG.

Brooks turns the ball over alot, but thats not the point. The point is he does stupid things at the worst possible times in a game which usully end up costing the Saints the game.
My poiny exactly Gator. It\'s the mistakes coupled with the fact of WHEN they are made. In the red zone is not the time to turn it over. Being sacked in the opponents red zone is not the time to underhand a gift to a Denver LB. It\'s the timing of the mistakes that drive me more batty than the mistakes themselves, as frustrating as they are.

These things really piss poeple off because these are the things 5-6 year starter are able to do and AB continues to struggle in this area. He\'s not getting better, he\'s just playing the same.
And this wins the door prize. It is 5 years of this silliness and people are still making excuses for the guy. When is enough enough. I am not gonna get trapped into excusing every make Leon makes cause I am afraid noone else out there we can get has his \"talent.\" Just doesn\'t make sense.

Kool, you present a good argument, but look at it this way. Did you see the throw to Gandy? That was a fumble, recovered by Deuce, 20 yards from the line of scrimmage. If it is 3rd and goal, as in the Arizona game, and you fumble the ball, as AB did, you end up with 4th and goal even if you recover and a field goal instead of a td. Or, give the defense a play off in having to stop you and shutting down the drive altogether. Even if the fumbles are recovered by the offense, they can kill a drive depending on down and distance. And gatorman expressed it great about the blocking:

Stop rolling into the pass rush
Happens more than people wanna admit. Not every play, probably not half, but enough to where the line gets all the blame and AB zero.

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Old 01-12-2005, 01:01 PM   #26
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Now THIS is an interesting mock

We averaged slightly better than 21 points a game this year. That\'s down from last year, but it should still be enough to win. Brooks threw the second most passes in the league, primarilly I\'d assume due to the fact that we played from behind ALL the time. Brooks may not be perfect, but he\'s surely an easy target. I COMPLETELY Disagree with the idea that we should bring in some bus driver. Bill Parcells tried that very thing in Dallas this year, and he took himself from the playoffs to the couch.
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Old 01-12-2005, 01:26 PM   #27
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Let me play devils advocate here. So you are saying we don\'t need better play from the QB spot as I\'ve suggested? What we need is ball control to limit his decisions....aka run more than throw it? That means the supporting cast needs to play better. You suggested 2 new O-linemen and a slimmer Deuce.
In a perfect world, I would like to have better play from the QB position. However, to get better play at the position, we need a new player at the position. I have zero confidence that Leon\'s game is going to be any better next year than it was this year. I think we\'ll get better results trying to pee into the wind than for Leon to either be a professional or play more intelligently.

But since it looks like we\'re going to have somewhere around 10 years of Haslett, we\'re going to be stuck with Leon for the remainder of his career. (In fact, I expect Leon to holdout or raise a big stink in order to get some blockbuster 10 year deal this offseason.) So in the meantime, the best option we have is to take the ball out of Leon\'s hands.

It seems evident to me that we need better play from the OT positions. Gandy is too expensive and isn\'t fast enough to pick up the rush and I can\'t see Riley being inked again.

As for Deuce\'s playing weight--I hurt for the guy. Ever since he\'s been here, Haslett has had him on a dieting yo-yo. First he was too light, then he was too fat, then he was too light again, now he\'s too fat again. I\'d like to take that decision from Haslett totally. Have Deuce and the conditioning coach and training staff meet and work out a size that works for Deuce. Haslett gets to move the Xs and Os around, Deuce decides what he needs to do to play at his best.

I\'m a little surprised because that\'s El Carpentar\'s theory!
That kind of hurts my feelings Gator.

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Old 01-12-2005, 01:36 PM   #28
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If AB\'s play is hurt by his poor supporting cast, then his play must also hurt the play of his supporting cast right?
Accurate to be sure, but how many posts have you seen defending the QB because Turley wiffed? None that I\'m aware of, which is why I and some others get accused of thinking Brooks is perfect merely because we defend the guy against this kinda stuff. Clearly he\'s not perfect, but my GOD man, I\'ve seen people blame this guy for everything under the sun while making excuses for everything wrong with this team...and those excuses are typically pointing the finger at the QB.

You may (or may not) remember me pointing out dropped passes TWO YEARS ago and, as Whodi puts it, getting railed for even suggesting it, but I think we all know it\'s an issue. If we\'re paying attention we do. Admitting our guys have a problem dropping passes doesn\'t mean we don\'t think Brooks throws bad balls at times, but it seems to get generalized that way.

And the WR must hate getting hung out to dry over the middle or having to make amazing catches when AB is under zero pressure.
I have sunday ticket. I watch a lot of games. I can\'t name a single QB that doesn\'t get his WR \"popped\". It\'s not just Brooks, but the theme of this statement is that you think it is. I didn\'t see our guys make a lot of great catches this year, but I sure did see \'em drop of lot of passes that me and you might have caught.

So my point is the QB has to eliminate the dumb mistakes regardless of his great plays or his cast or how good the defense is.
Of course he does. So should the rest of the team. When you post in here that Deuce isn\'t exactly Jim Brown you get beaten to death. When you post in here that the O-Line necessarilly sucked this year you get it thrown back at Brooks. When Brooks is a the helm of an offense that averaged over 20 points this year and nearly 30 last year I\'m the kinda guy that looks at that and says, ya know, maybe the offense isn\'t the real problem here. Maybe the QB, mistakes noted, isn\'t the real issue. I don\'t think he wastes any more timeouts than most any other player in the league. I don\'t think he\'s responsible for 4 delay of game penalties a game either...I really don\'t. You guys rail him for \"rolling into the pass rush\", but I\'d suggest that this year, more often than not, he didn\'t have much of a pocket to roll out of to start with.

NO ONE, not even me, is trying to say Brooks is a GOD or anything close, but he IS allowed to Audible, and he DOES do it successfully. He fails at it sometimes to. Perhaps someone can show me a QB that doesn\'t? He IS accused of things he is not at fault for, and yeah, he says some dumb things. He is a target for an 8-8 team, but I simply cannot agree that he\'s the reason it\'s 8-8...not when I watch the games on Sunday and see the crap that happens around him. He\'s not getting a pass, but I\'m not making assumptions about him that I have no way of knowing either.

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Old 01-12-2005, 02:03 PM   #29
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To all:

Interesting factoid posted by BMG a few months ago:

Too right Joe.

But I saw this breakdown of his passing and thought it might be fun to dispel an Aaron Brook myth.

Myth--It isn\'t Brooks fault, its all the drops.
In the 2004 season, Brooks has made 368 attempts with 156 incompletions. There have been 17 drops making about 11% of all incompletions being drops. Now 11% of all incompletions sounds like a lot, like maybe enough to determine whether we win or lose a game. But then if you consider that 63 passes have just been poor throws, then you come up with about 40% of all incompletions.

To put it in perspective. 4.6% of all passes are dropped.
17.1% of all passes are just bad throws.

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/...ts.asp?id=4781
Thought we could clear that dropped ball thing up again and \"put it in perspective.\" And if you click it again, it has the end of the year stats. Yeah, dropped balls. Okay.

[Edited on 12/1/2005 by saintswhodi]
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Old 01-12-2005, 02:16 PM   #30
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Quick question for every one. I like to do this from time to time to \"put things in perspective.\"

Aside from the Offensive Tackles, what is the next largest problem spot on offense? If you\'re a GM or an OC and you\'re planning an offense, what do you look to fix after the tackles?

Me, looking at the Saints, it\'s a tough call between the TEs and the QB. Given the vastly greater importance of the QB position, I probably address that before I worry about the TEs.

Or, look at the TEAM overall. DT, LB (shocker to see those two... again), OT... when what? QB?


I still feel that AB is disliked in large part due to how closely he resembles the rest of the team. Inconsistent, undisciplined, not that bright, not a \"student of the game\", works hard when he feels like it, but he always manages to do just enough to make some people think he deserves another year. Sound familiar? Couple that with hold outs for top 5 money and proclamations of being a great QB on a team that\'s holding him back and it isn\'t hard for me to see why people want him gone. Zero character....


[Edited on 12/1/2005 by WhoDat]

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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