Julio Jones better than Calvin Johnson, Gil Brandt says

atltillidie · 02-06-2013, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by SloMotion

Ok, I'm gonna' help a brother out because there's now way I can let you go about your day feeling like you just made an argument for Matt Ryan, . You see, stats are subjective and really only exist to support our own individual viewpoints, so one should never have to feel fully obligated to choosing Matt Ryan over a comparable QB. Feel better?

Let's go back a season, to that magical/mythical season that comes around for the Lions every decade or so ...

Tale of the Tape/2011
QB Rating: Stafford 97.2, Ryan 92.2
Comp. %: Stafford 63.5%, Ryan 61.3%
Total Yds: Stafford 5038, Ryan 4,177
TD / INT: Stafford 41 / 16, Ryan 29 / 12
Fumb / Lost: Stafford 5 / 4, Ryan 5 / 3 **yes, I know, but remember, stats are subjective.

Playoff record: Stafford 0-1, Ryan 1-5
Career Tackles: Stafford - 1, Ryan - 1 **I was looking for the 'tough guy' quotient

So, I guess you could argue when Stafford has the weapons and/or is healthy, he's your man over Ryan. At least I could. It's all hypothetical, of course, in the court of NFL QB's where you're ultimately judged on playoff wins & SuperBowls, of which there's only one between the two of them.

You must take into account how much the ball was ran for both seasons, and how many passing attempts there were for each season. At this point, I don't think you can really say that Matt Stafford is much better accurately. Stafford had at least 100 more pass attempts than Ryan during both seasons.

2011 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

2012 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

We also ran the ball A LOT more than the Lions did. They didn't even qualify for the rushing stats category when the season was over.

2011 NFL Player Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

2012 NFL Player Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

The way both of our offenses were different in 2011 makes it hard to tell who's better accurately. I think Ryan is better than Stafford, but it would be easier to tell if they pass the ball just as much as we do, it could work the other way around. Passing the ball as much as the Lions do really knock your stats down. It's really hard to win passing the ball 45+ times a game.

SloMotion · 02-07-2013, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by atltillidie

You must take into account how much the ball was ran for both seasons, and how many passing attempts there were for each season. At this point, I don't think you can really say that Matt Stafford is much better accurately. Stafford had at least 100 more pass attempts than Ryan during both seasons.

2011 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

2012 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

We also ran the ball A LOT more than the Lions did. They didn't even qualify for the rushing stats category when the season was over.

2011 NFL Player Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

2012 NFL Player Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

The way both of our offenses were different in 2011 makes it hard to tell who's better accurately. I think Ryan is better than Stafford, but it would be easier to tell if they pass the ball just as much as we do, it could work the other way around. Passing the ball as much as the Lions do really knock your stats down. It's really hard to win passing the ball 45+ times a game.

Ok, I gotta' change my avi to field this one. At the end of the day & by my ultimate QB standard (which is playoff/SB wins), I would have to begrudgingly give Ryan the nod on the basis of his recent, single playoff victory. Begrudgingly. I didn't say I was going down without a fight,

.

I want to focus on number of pass attempts because it always comes up. Stafford passes that much 'because he can'. And (noted) the Lions have a mediocre running game. And, when you got a receiver like Calvin Johnson, you build an offense around him & you use him. It's what you do.

But, like you said, passing the ball as much as the Lions do really knock your stats. Mathematically, it works against Stafford. When his receivers are holding onto the ball, as in 2011, it works out great, but when they are at or near the top of the league in drops, as in 2012, it's not so great, which the stats in this thread support. It's a wash, IMO. It's like discounting Ryan having a better playoff record at 1-5 then Stafford (0-1) because the Falcon's have gone to the playoffs more. Follow me?

Accuracy. How do you gauge accuracy when 1/2 of the equation is another guy having to catch the ball? I've seen Stafford thread the needle to Calvin in the endzone through triple-teams, more than once. Maybe not so much in 2012, but in 2011, Stafford was dead on. I'm sure Ryan has his moments, I don't see him play all that much. If we hung a tire from a tree in the backyard and gave both players a bushel basket of footballs to throw through the hoop, my money's on Stafford.

The different philosophy in offenses will always leave room for debate, but the big question is, "had Stafford/Ryan switched places, would Ryan have been as successful playing for the Lions and would Stafford have been as successful playing for the Falcons?" I don't think Ryan would have been as successful and I think Stafford would have taken the Falcons deep into the playoffs and possibly to a SuperBowl. But that's just speculation. Maybe someone could run it through Madden and share the results, if that's possible.

That's cool ESPN doesn't even reference the Lions running stats, that's why most poster don't reference ESPN around here. The "E" is for 'entertainment', they're not the best source of information. Just sayin'. No big deal, rookie mistake. It ain't like they're (the Lions) going to magically have better running stats then Atlanta on another source. But at least the stats will be listed. I do appreciate the time & effort you took in validating your opinion.

And anyway, to stay on topic, Calvin is better than Julio Jones. woop! woop!

.

Tobias-Reiper · 02-08-2013, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by atltillidie

You must take into account how much the ball was ran for both seasons, and how many passing attempts there were for each season. At this point, I don't think you can really say that Matt Stafford is much better accurately. Stafford had at least 100 more pass attempts than Ryan during both seasons.

2011 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

2012 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

We also ran the ball A LOT more than the Lions did. They didn't even qualify for the rushing stats category when the season was over.

2011 NFL Player Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

2012 NFL Player Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

The way both of our offenses were different in 2011 makes it hard to tell who's better accurately. I think Ryan is better than Stafford, but it would be easier to tell if they pass the ball just as much as we do, it could work the other way around. Passing the ball as much as the Lions do really knock your stats down. It's really hard to win passing the ball 45+ times a game.

Is this some sort of reverse psychology?

When a team lacks a running game, it puts more pressure on the QB to perform in the passing game. The last point is not arguable, it is a simple fact. That Stafford is putting the numbers he's putting when he has to put the ball in the air as much as he has to (not referring to total yards here, but completion ratio, TD/INT ) with the pressure he has to face because of the lack of a running game, with only 1 threat at WR to throw to (albeit a great one), it is remarkable.

Passing the ball as much as the Lions do really knock your stats down.

Yet, Stafford's stats are better.

atltillidie · 02-08-2013, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

Yet, Stafford's stats are better.

Not in 2012. According to who?

papz · 02-14-2013, 11:43 AM

Calvin Johnson recorded 91 of his 122 receptions, 1,428 of his 1,964 yards, and all five of his 2012 touchdowns against defenses that played six or fewer defenders in the box.

While the statistics strongly hint at Detroit's lack of a viable run game, it also confirms Megatron's dominance versus "pass-stacked defenses." He beats double and triple teams on the regular. Still just 27 years old, Johnson has led the NFL in receiving yards and all wide receivers in fantasy points in back-to-back seasons. A better running game could actually make him more efficient.

Source: ESPN.com

SloMotion · 02-14-2013, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by papz

Calvin Johnson recorded 91 of his 122 receptions, 1,428 of his 1,964 yards, and all five of his 2012 touchdowns against defenses that played six or fewer defenders in the box.

While the statistics strongly hint at Detroit's lack of a viable run game, it also confirms Megatron's dominance versus "pass-stacked defenses." He beats double and triple teams on the regular. Still just 27 years old, Johnson has led the NFL in receiving yards and all wide receivers in fantasy points in back-to-back seasons. A better running game could actually make him more efficient.

Source: ESPN.com

Reggie Bush (MIA) will be taking his talents to the Motor City & joining the Detroit Lions. Whether or not it gives them a better running game remains to be seen, but it can't hurt,

. Of course they'll overpay ...

papz · 02-21-2013, 02:16 PM

Indianapolis — Lions coach Jim Schwartz would not officially confirm that receiver Calvin Johnson has three broken fingers on one hand, but he certainly didn't deny it.

"I am not going to comment on any of our players' health," he said. "But that's not uncommon for a wide receiver."

Johnson, who played with at least two broken fingers most of the season and managed to break the NFL record for receiving yards in a season, has been seen around town with his hand wrapped.

"We don't have any injury reports this time of year," Schwartz said. "And you know how I am about injuries."

Johnson is expected to be ready for OTAs and training camp.

From The Detroit News: Does Calvin Johnson have broken fingers? Lions aren't saying | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com

02-06-2013, 07:51 PM	#31
atltillidie 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 432	Re: Julio Jones better than Calvin Johnson, Gil Brandt says Originally Posted by SloMotion Ok, I'm gonna' help a brother out because there's now way I can let you go about your day feeling like you just made an argument for Matt Ryan, . You see, stats are subjective and really only exist to support our own individual viewpoints, so one should never have to feel fully obligated to choosing Matt Ryan over a comparable QB. Feel better? Let's go back a season, to that magical/mythical season that comes around for the Lions every decade or so ... Tale of the Tape/2011 QB Rating: Stafford 97.2, Ryan 92.2 Comp. %: Stafford 63.5%, Ryan 61.3% Total Yds: Stafford 5038, Ryan 4,177 TD / INT: Stafford 41 / 16, Ryan 29 / 12 Fumb / Lost: Stafford 5 / 4, Ryan 5 / 3 *yes, I know, but remember, stats are subjective. Playoff record: Stafford 0-1, Ryan 1-5 Career Tackles: Stafford - 1, Ryan - 1 *I was looking for the 'tough guy' quotient So, I guess you could argue when Stafford has the weapons and/or is healthy, he's your man over Ryan. At least I could. It's all hypothetical, of course, in the court of NFL QB's where you're ultimately judged on playoff wins & SuperBowls, of which there's only one between the two of them. You must take into account how much the ball was ran for both seasons, and how many passing attempts there were for each season. At this point, I don't think you can really say that Matt Stafford is much better accurately. Stafford had at least 100 more pass attempts than Ryan during both seasons. 2011 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN 2012 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN We also ran the ball A LOT more than the Lions did. They didn't even qualify for the rushing stats category when the season was over. 2011 NFL Player Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN 2012 NFL Player Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN The way both of our offenses were different in 2011 makes it hard to tell who's better accurately. I think Ryan is better than Stafford, but it would be easier to tell if they pass the ball just as much as we do, it could work the other way around. Passing the ball as much as the Lions do really knock your stats down. It's really hard to win passing the ball 45+ times a game.

02-07-2013, 07:50 AM	#32
SloMotion 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 6,776 Blog Entries: 15	Re: Julio Jones better than Calvin Johnson, Gil Brandt says Originally Posted by atltillidie You must take into account how much the ball was ran for both seasons, and how many passing attempts there were for each season. At this point, I don't think you can really say that Matt Stafford is much better accurately. Stafford had at least 100 more pass attempts than Ryan during both seasons. 2011 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN 2012 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN We also ran the ball A LOT more than the Lions did. They didn't even qualify for the rushing stats category when the season was over. 2011 NFL Player Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN 2012 NFL Player Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN The way both of our offenses were different in 2011 makes it hard to tell who's better accurately. I think Ryan is better than Stafford, but it would be easier to tell if they pass the ball just as much as we do, it could work the other way around. Passing the ball as much as the Lions do really knock your stats down. It's really hard to win passing the ball 45+ times a game. Ok, I gotta' change my avi to field this one. At the end of the day & by my ultimate QB standard (which is playoff/SB wins), I would have to begrudgingly give Ryan the nod on the basis of his recent, single playoff victory. Begrudgingly. I didn't say I was going down without a fight, . I want to focus on number of pass attempts because it always comes up. Stafford passes that much 'because he can'. And (noted) the Lions have a mediocre running game. And, when you got a receiver like Calvin Johnson, you build an offense around him & you use him. It's what you do. But, like you said, passing the ball as much as the Lions do really knock your stats. Mathematically, it works against Stafford. When his receivers are holding onto the ball, as in 2011, it works out great, but when they are at or near the top of the league in drops, as in 2012, it's not so great, which the stats in this thread support. It's a wash, IMO. It's like discounting Ryan having a better playoff record at 1-5 then Stafford (0-1) because the Falcon's have gone to the playoffs more. Follow me? Accuracy. How do you gauge accuracy when 1/2 of the equation is another guy having to catch the ball? I've seen Stafford thread the needle to Calvin in the endzone through triple-teams, more than once. Maybe not so much in 2012, but in 2011, Stafford was dead on. I'm sure Ryan has his moments, I don't see him play all that much. If we hung a tire from a tree in the backyard and gave both players a bushel basket of footballs to throw through the hoop, my money's on Stafford. The different philosophy in offenses will always leave room for debate, but the big question is, "had Stafford/Ryan switched places, would Ryan have been as successful playing for the Lions and would Stafford have been as successful playing for the Falcons?" I don't think Ryan would have been as successful and I think Stafford would have taken the Falcons deep into the playoffs and possibly to a SuperBowl. But that's just speculation. Maybe someone could run it through Madden and share the results, if that's possible. That's cool ESPN doesn't even reference the Lions running stats, that's why most poster don't reference ESPN around here. The "E" is for 'entertainment', they're not the best source of information. Just sayin'. No big deal, rookie mistake. It ain't like they're (the Lions) going to magically have better running stats then Atlanta on another source. But at least the stats will be listed. I do appreciate the time & effort you took in validating your opinion. And anyway, to stay on topic, Calvin is better than Julio Jones. woop! woop! .

02-08-2013, 09:48 AM	#33
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: Julio Jones better than Calvin Johnson, Gil Brandt says Originally Posted by atltillidie You must take into account how much the ball was ran for both seasons, and how many passing attempts there were for each season. At this point, I don't think you can really say that Matt Stafford is much better accurately. Stafford had at least 100 more pass attempts than Ryan during both seasons. 2011 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN 2012 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN We also ran the ball A LOT more than the Lions did. They didn't even qualify for the rushing stats category when the season was over. 2011 NFL Player Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN 2012 NFL Player Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN The way both of our offenses were different in 2011 makes it hard to tell who's better accurately. I think Ryan is better than Stafford, but it would be easier to tell if they pass the ball just as much as we do, it could work the other way around. Passing the ball as much as the Lions do really knock your stats down. It's really hard to win passing the ball 45+ times a game. Is this some sort of reverse psychology? When a team lacks a running game, it puts more pressure on the QB to perform in the passing game. The last point is not arguable, it is a simple fact. That Stafford is putting the numbers he's putting when he has to put the ball in the air as much as he has to (not referring to total yards here, but completion ratio, TD/INT ) with the pressure he has to face because of the lack of a running game, with only 1 threat at WR to throw to (albeit a great one), it is remarkable. Passing the ball as much as the Lions do really knock your stats down. Yet, Stafford's stats are better.
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

02-08-2013, 09:37 PM	#34
atltillidie 100th Post Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 432	Re: Julio Jones better than Calvin Johnson, Gil Brandt says Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper Yet, Stafford's stats are better. Not in 2012. According to who?

02-14-2013, 11:43 AM	#35
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,744	Re: Julio Jones better than Calvin Johnson, Gil Brandt says Calvin Johnson recorded 91 of his 122 receptions, 1,428 of his 1,964 yards, and all five of his 2012 touchdowns against defenses that played six or fewer defenders in the box. While the statistics strongly hint at Detroit's lack of a viable run game, it also confirms Megatron's dominance versus "pass-stacked defenses." He beats double and triple teams on the regular. Still just 27 years old, Johnson has led the NFL in receiving yards and all wide receivers in fantasy points in back-to-back seasons. A better running game could actually make him more efficient. Source: ESPN.com SloMotion likes this.
	Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege. All little common sense goes a long way.

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02-14-2013, 03:33 PM	#36
SloMotion 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 6,776 Blog Entries: 15	Re: Julio Jones better than Calvin Johnson, Gil Brandt says Originally Posted by papz Calvin Johnson recorded 91 of his 122 receptions, 1,428 of his 1,964 yards, and all five of his 2012 touchdowns against defenses that played six or fewer defenders in the box. While the statistics strongly hint at Detroit's lack of a viable run game, it also confirms Megatron's dominance versus "pass-stacked defenses." He beats double and triple teams on the regular. Still just 27 years old, Johnson has led the NFL in receiving yards and all wide receivers in fantasy points in back-to-back seasons. A better running game could actually make him more efficient. Source: ESPN.com Reggie Bush (MIA) will be taking his talents to the Motor City & joining the Detroit Lions. Whether or not it gives them a better running game remains to be seen, but it can't hurt, . Of course they'll overpay ...

02-21-2013, 02:16 PM	#37
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,744	Re: Julio Jones better than Calvin Johnson, Gil Brandt says Indianapolis — Lions coach Jim Schwartz would not officially confirm that receiver Calvin Johnson has three broken fingers on one hand, but he certainly didn't deny it. "I am not going to comment on any of our players' health," he said. "But that's not uncommon for a wide receiver." Johnson, who played with at least two broken fingers most of the season and managed to break the NFL record for receiving yards in a season, has been seen around town with his hand wrapped. "We don't have any injury reports this time of year," Schwartz said. "And you know how I am about injuries." Johnson is expected to be ready for OTAs and training camp. From The Detroit News: Does Calvin Johnson have broken fingers? Lions aren't saying \| The Detroit News \| detroitnews.com
	Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege. All little common sense goes a long way.