If we could just have our Starting core...

Rell&Gold · 10-18-2022, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Good points. Added to the “Less contact less injury” idea is “Less contact (fieldtime) less cohesiveness”. It’s not surprising Dalton can make throws to Callaway and Smith….They got more practice and playing time together than Thomas/Landry/Winston did.

Giants are 5-1 with a hell of a defense. Steelers just beat the Bucs. Jets defense and special teams are playing fine. Saying all that to say. If you know your job your responsibilities in and out you have done your job add some execution in there of course. Tyrann missed tackles are not due to not enough contact. When there are guys with same training camp time making plays. Justin Simmons, Derwin James, marcus Williams etc.... know your job do your job. Can't so your job if you don't know it. Knowing half the battle now the other half is recognizing and applicating. I understand for rookies but for Veterans...naw I'm not giving them that. Sean left a void that DA isn't qualified to fill unfortunately the Saints are going to be impacted the most

Boston Saint · 10-18-2022, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Rell&Gold

Giants are 5-1 with a hell of a defense. Steelers just beat the Bucs. Jets defense and special teams are playing fine. Saying all that to say. If you know your job your responsibilities in and out you have done your job add some execution in there of course. Tyrann missed tackles are not due to not enough contact. When there are guys with same training camp time making plays. Justin Simmons, Derwin James, marcus Williams etc.... know your job do your job. Can't so your job if you don't know it. Knowing half the battle now the other half is recognizing and applicating. I understand for rookies but for Veterans...naw I'm not giving them that. Sean left a void that DA isn't qualified to fill unfortunately the Saints are going to be impacted the most

No argument. Just like Vets Kamara and Ingram shouldn’t fumble.

I guess the only diff is maybe not having practice together as a unit (offense or D) makes players sloppy. Your point is well taken though.

AsylumGuido · 10-18-2022, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

First off, concussions are a different ball of wax. After the Tua situation, both sides are being cautious.

And QB position is a separate category from other players. Mainly because they are the only player at their position on the field. So Watson may want to play but the staff is saying no because his injury is too hampering to his performance.

But I don’t believe that non QB, Non concussion injured players are being held back by the team more than the players themselves. In other words there isn’t someone on the Saints telling Thomas he can’t play. It’s Thomas saying he’s not ready.

Maybe I’m wrong.

Totally disagree. It's common knowledge that the medical staff has the ultimate say and total veto power these days as to any player returning to play regardless of injury. Why would any player refuse to play when fully cleared by the medical staff? Especially a player like Thomas that is so driven to be the best? It makes no sense. Not to mention that many players have some sort of incentives built in to their contracts. Not playing costs them money.

And don't forget that the Saints front office shared with the Saints beat writers that Thomas' turf toe injury was on about a four week recovery window. That will be after this coming week at best.

AsylumGuido · 10-18-2022, 06:22 PM

It's getting closer to a Penning return it seems.

Boston Saint · 10-19-2022, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Totally disagree. It's common knowledge that the medical staff has the ultimate say and total veto power these days as to any player returning to play regardless of injury. Why would any player refuse to play when fully cleared by the medical staff? Especially a player like Thomas that is so driven to be the best? It makes no sense. Not to mention that many players have some sort of incentives built in to their contracts. Not playing costs them money.

And don't forget that the Saints front office shared with the Saints beat writers that Thomas' turf toe injury was on about a four week recovery window. That will be after this coming week at best.

All of what happens, or is written about what happens, or speculations about the quality of the field at any given stadium is separate from the basic question. Is it the players Decision or the teams? The truth is some of each of course.

If player X is questionable for team A, then the Decision on if X plays (assuming X is outside of the earlier mentioned QB/concussion subgroup) depends on many variables: player’s health, team record, depth at position, etc. I’d hope we agree on this, right? For example the need for a guy at say 65% to return for a 5-1 team that is getting by at WR is different than a 2-4 team that is playing undrafted guys. Agreed?

So, in the Saints case, knowing they have receivers out, and knowing Thomas is paid to be a top WR, and knowing the team needs to win and the playoff window is closing, I do not believe the Saints staff is telling Thomas to sit while Thomas is saying, “No, I can play!”.

AsylumGuido · 10-19-2022, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

All of what happens, or is written about what happens, or speculations about the quality of the field at any given stadium is separate from the basic question. Is it the players Decision or the teams? The truth is some of each of course.

If player X is questionable for team A, then the Decision on if X plays (assuming X is outside of the earlier mentioned QB/concussion subgroup) depends on many variables: player’s health, team record, depth at position, etc. I’d hope we agree on this, right? For example the need for a guy at say 65% to return for a 5-1 team that is getting by at WR is different than a 2-4 team that is playing undrafted guys. Agreed?

So, in the Saints case, knowing they have receivers out, and knowing Thomas is paid to be a top WR, and knowing the team needs to win and the playoff window is closing, I do not believe the Saints staff is telling Thomas to sit while Thomas is saying, “No, I can play!”.

As you point out the circumstances come into play.

If the medical staff says the player doesn't play then it matters not what the coaches or the player wish. Everyone should agree that's a given.

If the medical staff gives a full go then it falls on the player and the coaches. In this case I can't imagine any player saying they don't want to play. I can see a coach wanting additional practice .. possibly.

If the medical staff gives a conditional go, as in the player can play but there is the chance of reaggravating the injury I can see the coaches considering the circumstances. Let's say it was a critical game such as clinching a playoff berth or an actual playoff game I can see the coaches asking the player to play. I seriously doubt any player would say no. If the game was not critical I can see the coaches making the decision to hold out the player regardless of what the player wishes.

Then there's the case of the medical staff giving a conditional go, as in the player can play without chance of further aggravation but there will be pain to play through and/or painkilling required. This is the only case I can possibly see the player making the final call. Once again, however, it is very hard for me to believe any player that is motivated enough to want to be great their whole life would refuse to play under these circumstances.

I have had the opportunity to know several athletes in several different sports over the years and I can honestly say that I do not believe any of them would refuse to compete if it was at all possible. It is so contrary to their basic mindset.

In addition, what the player is getting paid should not be part of any of the decisions, nor do I believe it comes into play beyond the minds of fans.

AsylumGuido · 10-19-2022, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

All of what happens, or is written about what happens, or speculations about the quality of the field at any given stadium is separate from the basic question. Is it the players Decision or the teams? The truth is some of each of course.

If player X is questionable for team A, then the Decision on if X plays (assuming X is outside of the earlier mentioned QB/concussion subgroup) depends on many variables: player’s health, team record, depth at position, etc. I’d hope we agree on this, right? For example the need for a guy at say 65% to return for a 5-1 team that is getting by at WR is different than a 2-4 team that is playing undrafted guys. Agreed?

So, in the Saints case, knowing they have receivers out, and knowing Thomas is paid to be a top WR, and knowing the team needs to win and the playoff window is closing, I do not believe the Saints staff is telling Thomas to sit while Thomas is saying, “No, I can play!”.

Just out of curiosity I put this question out to a few of the Saints beat writers, Boston.

"I have heard it suggested that Michael Thomas is able to play but chooses not to play. What are the possibilities of this being the case?"

Here's the first response:

Ross Jackson
@RossJacksonNOLA
Replying to
@AsylumGuido
That's not the case.
2:14 PM · Oct 19, 2022
·Twitter Web App

Second response:

@AsylumGuido
·
20m
Replying to
@RosvoglouReport

I have heard it suggested that Michael Thomas is able to play but chooses not to play. What are the possibilities of this being the case? I myself can't see this being the case.

Chris Rosvoglou
@RosvoglouReport
Replying to
@AsylumGuido
I highly doubt that
2:27 PM · Oct 19, 2022
·Twitter Web App

SmashMouth · 10-19-2022, 03:32 PM

At current pace , we're slotted for the #5 pick in the next draft which now belongs to another team. If we don't trade the rights to SP for multiple number 1s, what do we have to look forward to in a rich 2023 QB draft?

Boston Saint · 10-19-2022, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

At current pace , we're slotted for the #5 pick in the next draft which now belongs to another team. If we don't trade the rights to SP for multiple number 1s, what do we have to look forward to in a rich 2023 QB draft?

The 37th pick ?

BakoSaint · 10-20-2022, 02:00 AM

I think Michael Thomas wants to play, Dennis Allen wants to lead, and Mickey Loomis wants to have the cap space to improve the team. But I prefer replacing them all with individuals who are more likely to achieve those wants.

The people on hoarders want to have a clean house. But they also want to hoard. We need to stop hoarding injured players and poor leaders and clean house.

10-18-2022, 03:56 PM	#51
Rell&Gold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Washington, D.C Posts: 2,887	Re: If we could just have our Starting core... Originally Posted by Boston Saint Good points. Added to the “Less contact less injury” idea is “Less contact (fieldtime) less cohesiveness”. It’s not surprising Dalton can make throws to Callaway and Smith….They got more practice and playing time together than Thomas/Landry/Winston did. Giants are 5-1 with a hell of a defense. Steelers just beat the Bucs. Jets defense and special teams are playing fine. Saying all that to say. If you know your job your responsibilities in and out you have done your job add some execution in there of course. Tyrann missed tackles are not due to not enough contact. When there are guys with same training camp time making plays. Justin Simmons, Derwin James, marcus Williams etc.... know your job do your job. Can't so your job if you don't know it. Knowing half the battle now the other half is recognizing and applicating. I understand for rookies but for Veterans...naw I'm not giving them that. Sean left a void that DA isn't qualified to fill unfortunately the Saints are going to be impacted the most

10-18-2022, 04:01 PM	#52
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: If we could just have our Starting core... Originally Posted by Rell&Gold Giants are 5-1 with a hell of a defense. Steelers just beat the Bucs. Jets defense and special teams are playing fine. Saying all that to say. If you know your job your responsibilities in and out you have done your job add some execution in there of course. Tyrann missed tackles are not due to not enough contact. When there are guys with same training camp time making plays. Justin Simmons, Derwin James, marcus Williams etc.... know your job do your job. Can't so your job if you don't know it. Knowing half the battle now the other half is recognizing and applicating. I understand for rookies but for Veterans...naw I'm not giving them that. Sean left a void that DA isn't qualified to fill unfortunately the Saints are going to be impacted the most No argument. Just like Vets Kamara and Ingram shouldn’t fumble. I guess the only diff is maybe not having practice together as a unit (offense or D) makes players sloppy. Your point is well taken though. Rell&Gold likes this.

10-18-2022, 06:05 PM	#53
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,274	Re: If we could just have our Starting core... Originally Posted by Boston Saint First off, concussions are a different ball of wax. After the Tua situation, both sides are being cautious. And QB position is a separate category from other players. Mainly because they are the only player at their position on the field. So Watson may want to play but the staff is saying no because his injury is too hampering to his performance. But I don’t believe that non QB, Non concussion injured players are being held back by the team more than the players themselves. In other words there isn’t someone on the Saints telling Thomas he can’t play. It’s Thomas saying he’s not ready. Maybe I’m wrong. Totally disagree. It's common knowledge that the medical staff has the ultimate say and total veto power these days as to any player returning to play regardless of injury. Why would any player refuse to play when fully cleared by the medical staff? Especially a player like Thomas that is so driven to be the best? It makes no sense. Not to mention that many players have some sort of incentives built in to their contracts. Not playing costs them money. And don't forget that the Saints front office shared with the Saints beat writers that Thomas' turf toe injury was on about a four week recovery window. That will be after this coming week at best.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

10-18-2022, 06:22 PM	#54
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,274	Re: If we could just have our Starting core... It's getting closer to a Penning return it seems. Twitter

10-19-2022, 11:57 AM	#55
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: If we could just have our Starting core... Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Totally disagree. It's common knowledge that the medical staff has the ultimate say and total veto power these days as to any player returning to play regardless of injury. Why would any player refuse to play when fully cleared by the medical staff? Especially a player like Thomas that is so driven to be the best? It makes no sense. Not to mention that many players have some sort of incentives built in to their contracts. Not playing costs them money. And don't forget that the Saints front office shared with the Saints beat writers that Thomas' turf toe injury was on about a four week recovery window. That will be after this coming week at best. All of what happens, or is written about what happens, or speculations about the quality of the field at any given stadium is separate from the basic question. Is it the players Decision or the teams? The truth is some of each of course. If player X is questionable for team A, then the Decision on if X plays (assuming X is outside of the earlier mentioned QB/concussion subgroup) depends on many variables: player’s health, team record, depth at position, etc. I’d hope we agree on this, right? For example the need for a guy at say 65% to return for a 5-1 team that is getting by at WR is different than a 2-4 team that is playing undrafted guys. Agreed? So, in the Saints case, knowing they have receivers out, and knowing Thomas is paid to be a top WR, and knowing the team needs to win and the playoff window is closing, I do not believe the Saints staff is telling Thomas to sit while Thomas is saying, “No, I can play!”.
	You think you know, but you don’t know...and you never will! Coach Jim Mora

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10-19-2022, 02:40 PM	#56
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,274	Re: If we could just have our Starting core... Originally Posted by Boston Saint All of what happens, or is written about what happens, or speculations about the quality of the field at any given stadium is separate from the basic question. Is it the players Decision or the teams? The truth is some of each of course. If player X is questionable for team A, then the Decision on if X plays (assuming X is outside of the earlier mentioned QB/concussion subgroup) depends on many variables: player’s health, team record, depth at position, etc. I’d hope we agree on this, right? For example the need for a guy at say 65% to return for a 5-1 team that is getting by at WR is different than a 2-4 team that is playing undrafted guys. Agreed? So, in the Saints case, knowing they have receivers out, and knowing Thomas is paid to be a top WR, and knowing the team needs to win and the playoff window is closing, I do not believe the Saints staff is telling Thomas to sit while Thomas is saying, “No, I can play!”. As you point out the circumstances come into play. If the medical staff says the player doesn't play then it matters not what the coaches or the player wish. Everyone should agree that's a given. If the medical staff gives a full go then it falls on the player and the coaches. In this case I can't imagine any player saying they don't want to play. I can see a coach wanting additional practice .. possibly. If the medical staff gives a conditional go, as in the player can play but there is the chance of reaggravating the injury I can see the coaches considering the circumstances. Let's say it was a critical game such as clinching a playoff berth or an actual playoff game I can see the coaches asking the player to play. I seriously doubt any player would say no. If the game was not critical I can see the coaches making the decision to hold out the player regardless of what the player wishes. Then there's the case of the medical staff giving a conditional go, as in the player can play without chance of further aggravation but there will be pain to play through and/or painkilling required. This is the only case I can possibly see the player making the final call. Once again, however, it is very hard for me to believe any player that is motivated enough to want to be great their whole life would refuse to play under these circumstances. I have had the opportunity to know several athletes in several different sports over the years and I can honestly say that I do not believe any of them would refuse to compete if it was at all possible. It is so contrary to their basic mindset. In addition, what the player is getting paid should not be part of any of the decisions, nor do I believe it comes into play beyond the minds of fans.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

10-19-2022, 03:18 PM	#57
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,274	Re: If we could just have our Starting core... Originally Posted by Boston Saint All of what happens, or is written about what happens, or speculations about the quality of the field at any given stadium is separate from the basic question. Is it the players Decision or the teams? The truth is some of each of course. If player X is questionable for team A, then the Decision on if X plays (assuming X is outside of the earlier mentioned QB/concussion subgroup) depends on many variables: player’s health, team record, depth at position, etc. I’d hope we agree on this, right? For example the need for a guy at say 65% to return for a 5-1 team that is getting by at WR is different than a 2-4 team that is playing undrafted guys. Agreed? So, in the Saints case, knowing they have receivers out, and knowing Thomas is paid to be a top WR, and knowing the team needs to win and the playoff window is closing, I do not believe the Saints staff is telling Thomas to sit while Thomas is saying, “No, I can play!”. Just out of curiosity I put this question out to a few of the Saints beat writers, Boston. "I have heard it suggested that Michael Thomas is able to play but chooses not to play. What are the possibilities of this being the case?" Here's the first response: Ross Jackson @RossJacksonNOLA Replying to @AsylumGuido That's not the case. 2:14 PM · Oct 19, 2022 ·Twitter Web App Second response: @AsylumGuido · 20m Replying to @RosvoglouReport I have heard it suggested that Michael Thomas is able to play but chooses not to play. What are the possibilities of this being the case? I myself can't see this being the case. Chris Rosvoglou @RosvoglouReport Replying to @AsylumGuido I highly doubt that 2:27 PM · Oct 19, 2022 ·Twitter Web App
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

10-19-2022, 03:32 PM	#58
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,201 Blog Entries: 29	Re: If we could just have our Starting core... At current pace , we're slotted for the #5 pick in the next draft which now belongs to another team. If we don't trade the rights to SP for multiple number 1s, what do we have to look forward to in a rich 2023 QB draft?

10-19-2022, 03:43 PM	#59
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: If we could just have our Starting core... Originally Posted by SmashMouth At current pace , we're slotted for the #5 pick in the next draft which now belongs to another team. If we don't trade the rights to SP for multiple number 1s, what do we have to look forward to in a rich 2023 QB draft? The 37th pick ? SmashMouth likes this.

10-20-2022, 02:00 AM	#60
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,173	Re: If we could just have our Starting core... I think Michael Thomas wants to play, Dennis Allen wants to lead, and Mickey Loomis wants to have the cap space to improve the team. But I prefer replacing them all with individuals who are more likely to achieve those wants. The people on hoarders want to have a clean house. But they also want to hoard. We need to stop hoarding injured players and poor leaders and clean house.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,173