Everything Must Go?

BakoSaint · 10-21-2022, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Honestly I don't see the issue being lack of talent or playcalling. I see it as execution and discipline. As diz here points out it is behaviors that need adjusted. It doesn't matter if the perfect play is called every time if the execution sucks. It doesn't matter if the player has all of the talent in the world if the discipline and fire isn't there to use it.

The roster is full of very talented players. Trying to get rid of good players makes no sense whatsoever. As someone else pointed out here the NFL isn't like MLB. You can't wipe the slate clean and start anew with a fresh roster. MLB has a deep farm system. The NFL has only what you have on the roster and whatever is available in free agency and the draft. There's no promise of collecting a talent pool as good as we have right now for years, if at all.

First I want to see what we look like once we start getting back some of the key pieces that have been missing. Word is that Thomas could be back as early as this coming week. Penning could be a couple of weeks away. Winston, Landy, and Lattimore have ten days to rejoin the active roster.

I read that Kamara addressed the team after the game and made it clear the effort was not there and everyone need to start playing like the Saints he knows. I am coming around to the idea that the problem (aside from the rash of injuries) is with the motivation from the top.

The Patriots got rid of many good players in the process of winning 6 super bowls. Managing the cap often does make sense. Getting younger with more upside on the roster often does make sense. You can't take a formula that won 6 rings and say it can't even possibly make sense. Also, we don't even have to get rid of good players. We can get rid of arguably bad players who would incur a cap hit to get rid of now but will free us up to get more actual good players later, get rid of Peat, Mathieu, Smith, Landry and Thomas if they never play.

While it seems to make sense to have as many good players as possible at all times, the salary cap and timing effect things. If you accept having 70% of the talent of other teams one or two years, you can often afford to have 130% of the talent a later one or two years, and time your window. If you live in debt to the cap like we have been doing, you often end up with 90% of the talent you could have every year, because you lack the tools to get out of bad contracts like Peats and Hills.

Boston Saint · 10-21-2022, 02:27 PM

Here is a link and screengrab from spotrac.com regarding the team’s status for 2023 contracts:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-orleans-saints/cap/

I’m no cap expert. But it seems there are 8 players with Dead Cap hits in the 50-20 million range. Another 8 are in the 10-19 range. It goes from there. This money (to my understanding) is going to count against the cap next year weather or not these guys are on the team. So, it seems kinda hard to see these guys getting traded. Lattimore is over 50 million!

BakoSaint · 10-21-2022, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Here is a link and screengrab from spotrac.com regarding the team’s status for 2023 contracts:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-orleans-saints/cap/

I’m no cap expert. But it seems there are 8 players with Dead Cap hits in the 50-20 million range. Another 8 are in the 10-19 range. It goes from there. This money (to my understanding) is going to count against the cap next year weather or not these guys are on the team. So, it seems kinda hard to see these guys getting traded. Lattimore is over 50 million!

Only Lattimore and Ram would be very hard to absorb the hit. According to this we owe Michael Thomas $28 million next year if we keep him vs only $25 million dead cap if we cut or trade him so its actually a savings, and Shaheed is cheap and seems more motivated. Plus there are options like post June 1 cuts or asking players we could cut to take pay cuts.

What I really don't want to do is sign Peat, Thomas, Hill, Landry, Mathieu, etc to restructured extensions that make them Saints through 2030 in order to get under the 2023 cap and make room to bring in JJ Watt, OBJ, Matt Ryan / Tom Brady, Julio Jones, Bobby Wagner, and Ezekiel Elliott as free agents while trading all our draft picks this and next year to move up for a raw DE Or LT who will get hurt in preason and go on the IR giving us no rookies. That would be the Loomis playbook, try to be the oldest team in the league and get $ 100 million over the 2024 cap by restructuring to win it all in 2023 with the senior tour.

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/new-orleans-saints

Another thing to consider is that for 2023 a Kamara suspension is very likely and he is a key part of our offense. Also unless there is a Payton trade, which is no guarantee at all, we won't have a first round pick to contribute. And Jordan and Davis will be a year older. So does maxxing the cap and avoiding the tough cap hits that will help us in the future really make sense to try to 'win now' in 2023? I would rather watch a young underdog team in 2023 attempt to shock the world than try to keep all the veterans and watch a bunch of brittle old men try get healthy at the same time knowing cap hell is still ahead.

AsylumGuido · 10-21-2022, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

Only Lattimore and Ram would be very hard to absorb the hit. According to this we owe Michael Thomas $28 million next year if we keep him vs only $25 million dead cap if we cut or trade him so its actually a savings, and Shaheed is cheap and seems more motivated. Plus there are options like post June 1 cuts or asking players we could cut to take pay cuts.

What I really don't want to do is sign Peat, Thomas, Hill, Landry, Mathieu, etc to restructured extensions that make them Saints through 2030 in order to get under the 2023 cap and make room to bring in JJ Watt, OBJ, Matt Ryan / Tom Brady, Julio Jones, Bobby Wagner, and Ezekiel Elliott as free agents while trading all our draft picks this and next year to move up for a raw DE Or LT who will get hurt in preason and go on the IR giving us no rookies. That would be the Loomis playbook, try to be the oldest team in the league and get $ 100 million over the 2024 cap by restructuring to win it all in 2023 with the senior tour.

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/new-orleans-saints

Explain how Shaheed is more motivated than Thomas?

BakoSaint · 10-21-2022, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Explain how Shaheed is more motivated than Thomas?

Since joining the team Shaheed has never made a cryptic tweet, refused a phone call from the coach, delayed a needed surgery, or fought a teammate in practice. He doesn't have much money guaranteed so he is motivated to prove something to get paid.

AsylumGuido · 10-21-2022, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

Since joining the team Shaheed has never made a cryptic tweet, refused a phone call from the coach, delayed a needed surgery, or fought a teammate in practice. He doesn't have much money guaranteed so he is motivated to prove something to get paid.

None of that says that Shaheed is more motivated than Thomas. Just more of your biased bullcrap. Thought so.

shawnkytonk · 10-22-2022, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

Since joining the team Shaheed has never made a cryptic tweet, refused a phone call from the coach, delayed a needed surgery, or fought a teammate in practice. He doesn't have much money guaranteed so he is motivated to prove something to get paid.

So that's your opinion, because the fact you actually don't know any of this shows your flawed analysis.

shawnkytonk · 10-22-2022, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Explain how Shaheed is more motivated than Thomas?

AG I've come to realize there's no rationalization with these people who can't stand MT. He obviously pissed in their Cheerios. What's funny, is none of them seem to understand anything about his injuries. I've been dating a physician since June. I've got her watching Saints games now even though she's an Eagles fan. I've discussed the MT situation with her and shown her posts on this board. Her response to most of the stuff she's read here are "IDIOTS!"

AsylumGuido · 10-22-2022, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by shawnkytonk

AG I've come to realize there's no rationalization with these people who can't stand MT. He obviously pissed in their Cheerios. What's funny, is none of them seem to understand anything about his injuries. I've been dating a physician since June. I've got her watching Saints games now even though she's an Eagles fan. I've discussed the MT situation with her and shown her posts on this board. Her response to most of the stuff she's read here are "IDIOTS!"

I've uttered that same word more than once when reading the same stuff, shawnky.

BakoSaint · 10-22-2022, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by shawnkytonk

AG I've come to realize there's no rationalization with these people who can't stand MT. He obviously pissed in their Cheerios. What's funny, is none of them seem to understand anything about his injuries. I've been dating a physician since June. I've got her watching Saints games now even though she's an Eagles fan. I've discussed the MT situation with her and shown her posts on this board. Her response to most of the stuff she's read here are "IDIOTS!"

I can’t imagine why an Eagles fan would want to watch Saints games this year. Oh wait. Maybe your girlfriend is excited about the top 5 pick.

With all your understanding of injuries please give me all the examples where a player was largely ineffective or absent for 2.5 years and then came back to being a consistent producer. If you had a coworker who was on disability for the better part of 2.5 years with a string of various ailments, would they have to piss on you for you to question their imminent return to full time work?

10-21-2022, 02:31 PM	#1
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,408	Re: Everything Must Go? Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Honestly I don't see the issue being lack of talent or playcalling. I see it as execution and discipline. As diz here points out it is behaviors that need adjusted. It doesn't matter if the perfect play is called every time if the execution sucks. It doesn't matter if the player has all of the talent in the world if the discipline and fire isn't there to use it. The roster is full of very talented players. Trying to get rid of good players makes no sense whatsoever. As someone else pointed out here the NFL isn't like MLB. You can't wipe the slate clean and start anew with a fresh roster. MLB has a deep farm system. The NFL has only what you have on the roster and whatever is available in free agency and the draft. There's no promise of collecting a talent pool as good as we have right now for years, if at all. First I want to see what we look like once we start getting back some of the key pieces that have been missing. Word is that Thomas could be back as early as this coming week. Penning could be a couple of weeks away. Winston, Landy, and Lattimore have ten days to rejoin the active roster. I read that Kamara addressed the team after the game and made it clear the effort was not there and everyone need to start playing like the Saints he knows. I am coming around to the idea that the problem (aside from the rash of injuries) is with the motivation from the top. The Patriots got rid of many good players in the process of winning 6 super bowls. Managing the cap often does make sense. Getting younger with more upside on the roster often does make sense. You can't take a formula that won 6 rings and say it can't even possibly make sense. Also, we don't even have to get rid of good players. We can get rid of arguably bad players who would incur a cap hit to get rid of now but will free us up to get more actual good players later, get rid of Peat, Mathieu, Smith, Landry and Thomas if they never play. While it seems to make sense to have as many good players as possible at all times, the salary cap and timing effect things. If you accept having 70% of the talent of other teams one or two years, you can often afford to have 130% of the talent a later one or two years, and time your window. If you live in debt to the cap like we have been doing, you often end up with 90% of the talent you could have every year, because you lack the tools to get out of bad contracts like Peats and Hills.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,408

10-21-2022, 02:27 PM	#2
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: Everything Must Go? Here is a link and screengrab from spotrac.com regarding the team’s status for 2023 contracts: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-orleans-saints/cap/ I’m no cap expert. But it seems there are 8 players with Dead Cap hits in the 50-20 million range. Another 8 are in the 10-19 range. It goes from there. This money (to my understanding) is going to count against the cap next year weather or not these guys are on the team. So, it seems kinda hard to see these guys getting traded. Lattimore is over 50 million! Attached Thumbnails

10-21-2022, 02:36 PM	#3
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,408	Re: Everything Must Go? Originally Posted by Boston Saint Here is a link and screengrab from spotrac.com regarding the team’s status for 2023 contracts: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-orleans-saints/cap/ I’m no cap expert. But it seems there are 8 players with Dead Cap hits in the 50-20 million range. Another 8 are in the 10-19 range. It goes from there. This money (to my understanding) is going to count against the cap next year weather or not these guys are on the team. So, it seems kinda hard to see these guys getting traded. Lattimore is over 50 million! Only Lattimore and Ram would be very hard to absorb the hit. According to this we owe Michael Thomas $28 million next year if we keep him vs only $25 million dead cap if we cut or trade him so its actually a savings, and Shaheed is cheap and seems more motivated. Plus there are options like post June 1 cuts or asking players we could cut to take pay cuts. What I really don't want to do is sign Peat, Thomas, Hill, Landry, Mathieu, etc to restructured extensions that make them Saints through 2030 in order to get under the 2023 cap and make room to bring in JJ Watt, OBJ, Matt Ryan / Tom Brady, Julio Jones, Bobby Wagner, and Ezekiel Elliott as free agents while trading all our draft picks this and next year to move up for a raw DE Or LT who will get hurt in preason and go on the IR giving us no rookies. That would be the Loomis playbook, try to be the oldest team in the league and get $ 100 million over the 2024 cap by restructuring to win it all in 2023 with the senior tour. https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/new-orleans-saints Another thing to consider is that for 2023 a Kamara suspension is very likely and he is a key part of our offense. Also unless there is a Payton trade, which is no guarantee at all, we won't have a first round pick to contribute. And Jordan and Davis will be a year older. So does maxxing the cap and avoiding the tough cap hits that will help us in the future really make sense to try to 'win now' in 2023? I would rather watch a young underdog team in 2023 attempt to shock the world than try to keep all the veterans and watch a bunch of brittle old men try get healthy at the same time knowing cap hell is still ahead.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,408	Last edited by BakoSaint; 10-21-2022 at 03:06 PM..

10-21-2022, 02:43 PM	#4
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,707	Re: Everything Must Go? Originally Posted by BakoSaint Only Lattimore and Ram would be very hard to absorb the hit. According to this we owe Michael Thomas $28 million next year if we keep him vs only $25 million dead cap if we cut or trade him so its actually a savings, and Shaheed is cheap and seems more motivated. Plus there are options like post June 1 cuts or asking players we could cut to take pay cuts. What I really don't want to do is sign Peat, Thomas, Hill, Landry, Mathieu, etc to restructured extensions that make them Saints through 2030 in order to get under the 2023 cap and make room to bring in JJ Watt, OBJ, Matt Ryan / Tom Brady, Julio Jones, Bobby Wagner, and Ezekiel Elliott as free agents while trading all our draft picks this and next year to move up for a raw DE Or LT who will get hurt in preason and go on the IR giving us no rookies. That would be the Loomis playbook, try to be the oldest team in the league and get $ 100 million over the 2024 cap by restructuring to win it all in 2023 with the senior tour. https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/new-orleans-saints Explain how Shaheed is more motivated than Thomas?

10-21-2022, 02:51 PM	#5
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,408	Re: Everything Must Go? Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Explain how Shaheed is more motivated than Thomas? Since joining the team Shaheed has never made a cryptic tweet, refused a phone call from the coach, delayed a needed surgery, or fought a teammate in practice. He doesn't have much money guaranteed so he is motivated to prove something to get paid.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,408

10-21-2022, 03:06 PM	#6
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,707	Re: Everything Must Go? Originally Posted by BakoSaint Since joining the team Shaheed has never made a cryptic tweet, refused a phone call from the coach, delayed a needed surgery, or fought a teammate in practice. He doesn't have much money guaranteed so he is motivated to prove something to get paid. None of that says that Shaheed is more motivated than Thomas. Just more of your biased bullcrap. Thought so.

10-22-2022, 11:33 AM	#7
shawnkytonk 500th Post Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Denver>Memphis>Mississippi Posts: 741	Re: Everything Must Go? Originally Posted by BakoSaint Since joining the team Shaheed has never made a cryptic tweet, refused a phone call from the coach, delayed a needed surgery, or fought a teammate in practice. He doesn't have much money guaranteed so he is motivated to prove something to get paid. So that's your opinion, because the fact you actually don't know any of this shows your flawed analysis. AsylumGuido likes this.

10-22-2022, 11:37 AM	#8
shawnkytonk 500th Post Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Denver>Memphis>Mississippi Posts: 741	Re: Everything Must Go? Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Explain how Shaheed is more motivated than Thomas? AG I've come to realize there's no rationalization with these people who can't stand MT. He obviously pissed in their Cheerios. What's funny, is none of them seem to understand anything about his injuries. I've been dating a physician since June. I've got her watching Saints games now even though she's an Eagles fan. I've discussed the MT situation with her and shown her posts on this board. Her response to most of the stuff she's read here are "IDIOTS!" SaintFanInATLHELL and AsylumGuido like this.

10-22-2022, 11:58 AM	#9
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,707	Re: Everything Must Go? Originally Posted by shawnkytonk AG I've come to realize there's no rationalization with these people who can't stand MT. He obviously pissed in their Cheerios. What's funny, is none of them seem to understand anything about his injuries. I've been dating a physician since June. I've got her watching Saints games now even though she's an Eagles fan. I've discussed the MT situation with her and shown her posts on this board. Her response to most of the stuff she's read here are "IDIOTS!" I've uttered that same word more than once when reading the same stuff, shawnky.

10-22-2022, 12:00 PM	#10
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,408	Re: Everything Must Go? Originally Posted by shawnkytonk AG I've come to realize there's no rationalization with these people who can't stand MT. He obviously pissed in their Cheerios. What's funny, is none of them seem to understand anything about his injuries. I've been dating a physician since June. I've got her watching Saints games now even though she's an Eagles fan. I've discussed the MT situation with her and shown her posts on this board. Her response to most of the stuff she's read here are "IDIOTS!" I can’t imagine why an Eagles fan would want to watch Saints games this year. Oh wait. Maybe your girlfriend is excited about the top 5 pick. With all your understanding of injuries please give me all the examples where a player was largely ineffective or absent for 2.5 years and then came back to being a consistent producer. If you had a coworker who was on disability for the better part of 2.5 years with a string of various ailments, would they have to piss on you for you to question their imminent return to full time work?
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,408