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Observations from the saints Loss to the 49ers

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by Sinner If my Boss is responsible for teaching, motivating and supervising me to carry something precious across a line, and to NOT DROP IT, or to NOT ALLOW ANYONE TO PUNCH IT OUT OF MY HANDS... and ...

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Old 11-29-2022, 01:17 PM   #101
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Re: Observations from the saints Loss to the 49ers

Originally Posted by Sinner View Post
If my Boss is responsible for teaching, motivating and supervising me to carry something precious across a line, and to NOT DROP IT, or to NOT ALLOW ANYONE TO PUNCH IT OUT OF MY HANDS... and I continued to DROP IT, especially in critical situations... my Boss would have to MAKE ADJUSTMENTS in my level of "personal responsibility", or REPLACE ME, to better achieve his team's objective. He (or She) wouldn't be able to just shrug his shoulders and throw his hands up in the air, and still call himself a Boss.

The Head Coach doesn't get to simply gaze onto the field and watch his team "fumble" away critical opportunities, and do nothing about it, week after week... That's NOT what he's getting paid to do. It's a Head Coach, not a Mannequin.
I respectively see it differently. We aren’t talking about a rookie. And we are talking about more responsibilities than simply not fumbling. Kamara is considered one of the best backs and greatest weapons in the game. Allen had him in a position to succeed on a play with a catch near the goal line. It’s the player’s responsibility to execute the play. Part of that is not dropping the ball. Allen isn’t throwing the ball….he’s not catching the ball….he’s not running the ball…and he’s not fumbling the ball. If your answer is to replace Kamara with someone better then good luck with that. If it makes you feel better to blame Allen for everything rather than the players who are making the mistakes the more power to you. If I drop a glass of milk I don’t blame my parents for not teaching me I shouldn’t drop a glass of milk. I blame myself. I’m old enough and experienced enough to know that myself and so does Kamara. Maybe if he was as serious about fumbling as he was about packed elevators he would hold onto the ball.

You think you know, but you don’t know...and you never will! Coach Jim Mora
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Old 11-29-2022, 01:23 PM   #102
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Re: Observations from the saints Loss to the 49ers

Originally Posted by Boston Saint View Post
I respectively see it differently. We aren’t talking about a rookie. And we are talking about more responsibilities than simply not fumbling. Kamara is considered one of the best backs and greatest weapons in the game. Allen had him in a position to succeed on a play with a catch near the goal line. It’s the player’s responsibility to execute the play. Part of that is not dropping the ball. Allen isn’t throwing the ball….he’s not catching the ball….he’s not running the ball…and he’s not fumbling the ball. If your answer is to replace Kamara with someone better then good luck with that. If it makes you feel better to blame Allen for everything rather than the players who are making the mistakes the more power to you. If I drop a glass of milk I don’t blame my parents for not teaching me I shouldn’t drop a glass of milk. I blame myself. I’m old enough and experienced enough to know that myself and so does Kamara. Maybe if he was as serious about fumbling as he was about packed elevators he would hold onto the ball.
As you say: after all, a 6 year All-pro with over 1,000 carries, who "lacks personal responsibility" has to be told not to fumble... ?

OR... The Head Coach should say, "You're a 6 year All-pro with over 1,000 carries, an it's cool if you fumble in critical situations. As a Head Coach, I get to point my finger at your "lack of personal responsibility, and we can lose again next week, and I still get to call myself a Head Coach..."

Nah. If your job is to deliver milk across a line, and you drop it, your Boss is going to have to either change the way you carry your milk, replace you with someone who can hold on to the milk and get it where it needs to be, or continue to LOSE his milk.
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Old 11-29-2022, 01:28 PM   #103
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Re: Observations from the saints Loss to the 49ers

Originally Posted by Sinner View Post
As you say: after all, a 6 year All-pro with over 1,000 carries, who "lacks personal responsibility" has to be told not to fumble... ?

OR... The Head Coach should say, "You're a 6 year All-pro with over 1,000 carries, an it's cool if you fumble in critical situations. As a Head Coach, I get to point my finger at your "lack of personal responsibility, and we can lose again next week, and I still get to call myself a Head Coach..."

Nah. If your job is to deliver milk across a line, and you drop it, your Boss is going to have to either change the way you carry your milk, replace you with someone who can hold on to the milk and get it where it needs to be, or continue to LOSE his milk.
By why do you only focus on what your boss does about it rather than focus on what YOU do about it? Don’t you think you should NOT drop the milk? Don’t you realize that it is a bad thing? Don’t you feel responsible for dropping it? You really need to have someone tell you not to drop the milk?

Are you saying Allen should have benched Kamara for his first quarter fumble?
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Old 11-29-2022, 01:48 PM   #104
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Re: Observations from the saints Loss to the 49ers

Originally Posted by Boston Saint View Post
By why do you only focus on what your boss does about it rather than focus on what YOU do about it? Don’t you think you should NOT drop the milk? Don’t you realize that it is a bad thing? Don’t you feel responsible for dropping it? You really need to have someone tell you not to drop the milk?

Are you saying Allen should have benched Kamara for his first quarter fumble?
In case you haven't noticed (and I could have saved us both a lot of seemingly wasted energy), I am saying that we have a COACHING problem.
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Old 11-29-2022, 01:55 PM   #105
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Re: Observations from the saints Loss to the 49ers

Originally Posted by Sinner View Post
In case you haven't noticed (and I could have saved us both a lot of seemingly wasted energy), I am saying that we have a COACHING problem.
Ok. I don't necessarily disagree. But do you blame Kamara's fumbles on Kamara or on the "coaching". For example, during the Niners game when those balls came out did you say:

"Damn Alvin, hold onto the ball!"

Or

"Damn Allen, why did you not have someone in who wouldn't fumble?!"

Honest question. Not what you think about later, what did you say at the time?

I yelled at Alvin Kamara, not Dennis Allen.
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Old 11-29-2022, 02:23 PM   #106
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Re: Observations from the saints Loss to the 49ers

Originally Posted by Boston Saint View Post
Ok. I don't necessarily disagree. But do you blame Kamara's fumbles on Kamara or on the "coaching". For example, during the Niners game when those balls came out did you say:

"Damn Alvin, hold onto the ball!"

Or

"Damn Allen, why did you not have someone in who wouldn't fumble?!"

Honest question. Not what you think about later, what did you say at the time?

I yelled at Alvin Kamara, not Dennis Allen.
The Fact is: It is NOT in the HEAD COACHES' Job Description to point "blame" or to deflect in any way, to the Player, when the Players' Performance suffers. It is absolutely on the COACH to work it out with the Player, to make any and all adjustments. As a matter of Fact, it IS in the Coaches' Job Description to redirect ANY and ALL criticism (or deficiency/inconsistency) of ANY Player's Performance, to the Coach himself. It has nothing to do with what I as a Fan says or yells, while I watch the Player and the Team fall apart week after week.
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Old 11-29-2022, 02:24 PM   #107
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Re: Observations from the saints Loss to the 49ers

Much like 2010 when Garrett Hartley missed a chip-shot field goal in overtime that led to a 27-24 Atlanta win and changed the course of the entire season, Mark Ingram's fumble against Tampa earlier this year did the same thing: "On the drive after Tampa Bay tied the score at 3 with a 47-yard field goal, New Orleans opened its next drive at its 25 following a touchback. And the Saints went about constructing their most balanced and effective drive of the game, a mix of three passes (for 25 yards) and five runs (for 30 yards) that pushed New Orleans to first-and-10 from the Tampa Bay 20-yard line with 1:19 left in the quarter.

But with the Saints in scoring position, and touchdowns scarce among the two combatants, New Orleans couldn't throw what undoubtedly would have amounted to an offensive haymaker.

Running back Mark Ingram II took the handoff off left guard, manipulated his way through heavy traffic and as he anticipated contact, covered the football with both hands.

It wasn't enough.

As safety Logan Ryan and linebacker Lavonte David converged for the tackle, Ryan attacked the ball and executed a perfect punch-out at the 11-yard line. When linebacker Carl Nassib recovered at the 10, New Orleans went from the possibility of a lead-taking field goal and, perhaps, backbreaking touchdown, to an empty red zone trip and a score that remained 3-3."
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Old 11-29-2022, 02:57 PM   #108
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Re: Observations from the saints Loss to the 49ers

Originally Posted by Sinner View Post
The Fact is: It is NOT in the HEAD COACHES' Job Description to point "blame" or to deflect in any way, to the Player, when the Players' Performance suffers. It is absolutely on the COACH to work it out with the Player, to make any and all adjustments. As a matter of Fact, it IS in the Coaches' Job Description to redirect ANY and ALL criticism (or deficiency/inconsistency) of ANY Player's Performance, to the Coach himself. It has nothing to do with what I as a Fan says or yells, while I watch the Player and the Team fall apart week after week.
Cool. I’m not a head coach. I can afford to have a more realistic opinion. Do you not want to answer the question I put out? Just wondering. I say all this with respect to your opinions Sinner.
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Old 11-29-2022, 03:12 PM   #109
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Re: Observations from the saints Loss to the 49ers

Remember when Ingram fumbled vs the Hawks in 2016?
Payton benched him for the whole game and ran Tim Hightower 30 plus times.

Our players are playing poorly, that's granted, but the coaches aren't showing them any consequences. It's not like this is a new thing, we are -12 in the turnover margin. This hasnt just started, the skill position players have been messing up all year and the coaches still haven't rectified it.

Does that mean Alvin sucks? Nope, because he hasn't really had this issue before, which surely comes down to coaching to be upfront and honest with him and say he needs to protect the ball better or pull him from the game if he's being a detriment to success.

In Payton's world, no one was too big.

Dennis I don't think has the guts to do that, to make a statement and hold the players accountable for their mishaps.
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Old 11-29-2022, 03:23 PM   #110
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Re: Observations from the saints Loss to the 49ers

Originally Posted by dizzle88 View Post
Remember when Ingram fumbled vs the Hawks in 2016?
Payton benched him for the whole game and ran Tim Hightower 30 plus times.

Our players are playing poorly, that's granted, but the coaches aren't showing them any consequences. It's not like this is a new thing, we are -12 in the turnover margin. This hasnt just started, the skill position players have been messing up all year and the coaches still haven't rectified it.

Does that mean Alvin sucks? Nope, because he hasn't really had this issue before, which surely comes down to coaching to be upfront and honest with him and say he needs to protect the ball better or pull him from the game if he's being a detriment to success.

In Payton's world, no one was too big.

Dennis I don't think has the guts to do that, to make a statement and hold the players accountable for their mishaps.
Or is it the ability? He didn’t put this team together. Who in reality would he bench Kamara for? Payton took time to get to that point. And again, why let Kamara off the hook for fumbling? Because he was “scared” of being benched? Well, Payton could bench him before he got a big contract. Allen can’t.
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