blacksaint

The main thing that I don't understand about all this is that dog fighting has been around for a very, very long time, I've never participated in a dog fight, but I've known about dog fighting ever since I was young. When I was a kid growing up in New Orleans playing in the playgrounds all over the city it was a common sight to see a large group of guys at one end of the park placing bets on dogs on big chains fighting, and when one dog got an advantage they would pull the dogs apart. I remember as a youngster being afraid because they didn't have any cages or gates or anything, they just fought them right there in the open. Like I said, this was when I was a kid, and to be honest with you, I never knew it was a federal charge. Thank god as a kid I found something wrong with fighting dogs or I would've been suck into that world also. They say Vick is one of the biggest ring leaders in dog fighting, I kind of find that hard to believe, because there are a lot of people involved in that world probably about 85 to 90 percent of the cities in this country have some type of dog fighting activity in them and it crosses all social, economical and racial landscapes. I mean I'm talking about the late 70's, early to mid 80's and you use to see black guys, white guys, latino guys, you'd see guys in pickup trucks, on bikes, in cars, some regular old cars and then you'd see like Cadillacs, corvettes, jaguars, benz's, hell man I remember seeing this white Bentley that use to be park on the other side of the street from Easton/Comiskey Park(one of the downtown neighborhood parks known for it's dog fighting activities). I remember the cars because it was all me and my friends were interested in at that time, nice cars and there were a lot of them around the parks when they used to fight the dogs. It was a very big deal at those times, and I'm more than sure Vick was exposed to that world when he was a kid and like many before him and many after him was pulled into that world, like I said before, THANK GOD it wasn't something I wanted to get involved with even as a kid. When I talk to a lot of people about the Vick situation, the ones that didn't know about dog fighting found it disgusting and deplorable. And the people who had some knowledge of dog fighting wasn't to surprised at the news. Now what I did find appalling is the way they said they killed the dogs after a dog lost a fight, now if true that's really some sick $$$$. I said if true, because when somebody is offered a federal deal, a lot of things those particular low life's let fly out of they mouths is usually lies and fabrications to make their situations with the feds that much better. Now I'm not condoning anything that he's charged with because like I said that's dementedly sick, but I think if someone is that sick, coldblooded, violent, and heartless to shoot, hang, and drown dogs with no feelings what so ever, is mentally f-up. Don't you think someone that sadistic would have showed some kind of sign, some type of violent behavior, especially playing the most violent sport in the world. Now I'm not saying he did it or he didn't, I don't know the guy personally, but everybody that know him personally and spend time around him said that that don't sound like his personality. I know a lot of people want to see Vick executed for his crime, but some of those things said just don't seem right to me, I definitely know that you can't trust a rat who when involved in a crime everything is all good, but the minute they get busted they'll sell their mother down the river for a sweet deal. The odd thing about Vick case is everybody is on Vick about the dogs except the feds. The feds could care less about the cruelty to animal charges, they got him on gambling, traveling across state lines with dogs to bet and participate in illegal dog fighting activities. Whatever his sentence is he should just do the time for his crime, get his mind together, realize that he blew a once in a life time dream come true life and know that he will never ever achieve that again. I think if he stays healthy, get his mind together, beg for forgiveness, make amends, and do a lot of charity work, then and only then I think he should be allowed to assume his career in the NFL.

saint4life
(504)

Tobias-Reiper

... well, as a kid, you probably saw drugs being dealt as well. and somehow you knew that wasn't "right".

As for hunting, two different things. Personally, I don't know any hunter who doesn't eat what he hunts. And to eat anything, being beef, fish, chicken, pork, venison, or whatever is it that you eat, you first have to kill it, or it will die as you cook it, or at the very least, after you have ingested it. For most people, someone already killed the cow, or pig, or fish, etc., and they buy it all neatly wrapped up at the supermarket.
I mean, I can make fishing sound like a terrible activity too, and say is no better than dog fighting:
"The poor fish is swimming along with her family: her mother, her father, her uncle, her brothers and sisters, her own children, when she is deceived with a shiny lurel by a man who's stalking her from an element above the innocent fish has no concept of. Upon biting on the lure in front of her (it's natural instinct) a sharp, a sharp, cold piece of steal rips right into her flesh." ... I can go on, but you get the idea....

As for Vick being "only 27", well....

As for the case against Vick, I seriously doubt that the case the Feds have against Vick is merely the others ratting on him. Feds don't play that game, because Feds don't like to lose. Without hard, physical evidence, they don't indict. Without hard, physical evidence, a lawyer like Billy Martin doesn't advise his client to take a plea and do some jail time.

As for people making this a "black and white issue", it is always, ALWAYS, the minorities calling out the authorities for persecuting someone because that person is a minortity.

Personally, I don't want Vick begging for forgiveness, and I don't care what charity work he does. He broke the law, he got caught. That's that. After he does the jail time and pays the fine, the market is going to decide whether he's got an NFL career left or not. The NFL is an EXTREMELY image-conscious entertainment corporation, and has clauses on every contract aimed at protecting that image. But like all corporations, it is also EXTREMELY money-conscious, and if people like Lawrence Phillips, or Cecil Collins, or Maurice Clarette, still got opportunities to play in the NFL, if it means making money, I'm sure someone will take Vick back. Heck, I guarantee you, of JeMarcus fails in Oakland, The Raiders would LOVE to have a felon at QB. The Raiders are extremely image-conscious as well.

'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

DeadmaN

Come on
Now you are trying to confuse the issues

You are trying to describe the 2 things as if they are one in the same, when in fact one has nothing to do with the other outside of the end result.

Meaning; that the only thing that both of the subjects have in common is that in the end ,an animal is dead and that is the only similarity between the 2.

I’ll try to explain...
It’s like 2 Bata fish in the wild yes they do fight but one has the chance to retreat because the environment offers them the ability to do so. Such is nature’s way. What this means is that although they will have encounters with other fish and fights, they are never to the death and hardly ever result in injury but if you put 2 of them in a bole with no way out then yes one of them will dye.

It’s the same thing with these dogs. In normal situations the initial confrontation between them is simply a threat or a display of aggression.
Why do animals do this?
Well it is widely believed that this is to show to the opposing animal that I am bigger, and I am stronger so the fight never even happens.

Then from time to time you have 2 animals that are both equally large and equally strong, and normally yes a fight does ensue but the fight only last until one animal has shown himself to be the more dominate and the other animal retreats.

In dog fighting there is no place to retreat too and they are being enticed to fight.
In the wild the 2 animals would never find themselves in a pit with no place to escape too.

I’m sorry but your take on hunting and fighting animals is wayyyyyyyy of base

SapperSaint

What Vick "DID" do is in no way, even close to fishing and hunting.

I hunt. I hunt to keep deer from screwing themselves into extinction, and to EAT.

Vick "DID" not kill those dogs to eat. He "DID" it because they could not fight and make him money.

I am beyond sick and tired of the "Black vs White" angle of this crap. A MAN BROKE THE LAW, AND NOW HE WILL BE PUNISHED FOR IT.

The more "race" get's brought up..... the longer racial problems will hurt this Nation.

I now know why "aliens" are all green.

"We are number one. All others are number two, or lower."
-The Sphinx
http://blackandgold.com/groups/28-ou...tsman-s-corner

jimbeaujr

In Vick's defense
Oh Wait, there is NO defense.

exiled

Being originally from Atlanta it was kind of hard not to notice the scandal surrounding my city's latest favorite son: Michael Vick (tm).

He has been accused of being a part of a dog fighting ring. Now, of course I don't condone the sport - but I also don't condone horse racing - where horses are often run to death and put down if they have an injury. Excuse me, I didn't mean to use children's-speak. The horse is not “put down" it is not “put to sleep" it is executed.

But horse racing is an avocation of the wealthy. If horse racing were a ghetto subculture it would be disdained. But poor people can't afford horses - they can afford dogs.

If they wore suits and had luxury skyboxes it would probably be OK.

I remember a song by a New Orleans songwriter from the 9th ward (my former home and where dog fighting was pretty common.)

The Dog Song
By Mike West

how do you make your dog so strong
find a car tire and tie it on
to his collar, then make him pull it along
that way your dog'll be strong

how do you make your dog want to fight
keep him hungry and keep his chain tight
then let him loose on the levee tonight
wave a bloody rag and he'll fight

how do you make your dog stay dumb
don't let him learn from anyone
don't let him do nothing but bark and run
that way your dog'll stay dumb

Chorus:
i got a good dog
i call him black
he don't let go
when he put on a bite
i lost some money
but i'll get it back
when i lay my bet tonight . . .

1. . how do you make a man like a doghell that's easy as falling off a log

just do what i told you in this song
and any man will be your dog . . .

1. . how do you make your dog so strong
find a car tire, make him pull it along

but be sure and teach him right from wrong
'cause your dog gonna eat you if it gets too strong

©1996 Mike West

I really don't think that NFL officials are appalled at a blood sport (I mean really) Hell how many kids in the NFL came from the University of South Carolina Game Cocks?

But they are appalled at having it revealed that one of thier major product lines --Michael Vick (tm)-- came from a culture that no one really wants to look at.

Its bad for buisness. And the annalogy of how dogs are bred is a little close to home.

Dogs have been bred to fight since before Lassie was a puppie.Then ya think about Abu-Ghraib . Its OK to let dogs terrorize people - just not other dogs.

One of the big ironies of this particularly brutal pastime is there have several federal attempts to regulate and criminalize dogfighting, but the initiatives have been consistently thwarted by pro-life republicans who say that the federal government cannot offer protection to dogs if they don't protect fetuses... really...

Now, I don't know how guilty Michael Vick (tm) is. I guess none of us know till Monday.

I also have no idea how or why wealthy superstars -- who are a few football games out of the ghetto -- spend their money. I could conceive of a scenario where the guy just gave his friends money - I know lots of overly wealthy athletes support a whole slew of people - that they rarely see. The point is: I just don't know.

If I were a betting man: I would take Phido in the 4th - NO. I would say Vick never plays again.

"it is from the lost, your culture has always been found." - chandler (9th ward new orleans #2)

CheramieIII

Vick deserves the bubba justice he's going to get in prison. My biggest problem with the entire situation is that he thought he was going to get away with it and continued to lie to Goddell and the entire world. For that I think he should be banned from any professional sport, PERIOD.

You can't teach an old dog new tricks and in this case it's because their dead. Which is why he shouldn't get any chances, anymore.

His own father said it best. this is him and he needs to own up to who he is"!


A real tough guy.

Golf and sex are about the only things you can enjoy without being good at them.
Jimmy Demaret

JOESAM2002

Exiled, you must be new to horse racing. I have been involved in racing for only about 40 years and your statement that horses are often run to death just isn't true. You might want to check your sources on that. Yes it is true that some have to be put down due to injury, but believe me it's very few compared to the number that run on any given day. However, in a dog fight, the object of the game is for one to be carted out dead. Now where are these two similar? Anyway, i'm not meaning to jump your case, I just wanted to set the recoed straight on the horse racing thing.

P.S. Oh by the way, you'd be surprised at the number of "poor" people that participate in horse racing. The tracks you see on TV aren't the only ones in the country. Horse racing is open to anyone of any color. We have one of the top trainers in the country(he's black by the way) and I love him dearly. We all started years ago on small Louisiana dirt tracks. You might try it sometime. You might change your mind

Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot, than to open it and remove all doubt!!!!!

"Every time you think, you weaken the nation!" Moe Howard...The Three Stooges.

cadilacin

I respect yall boys opinion. But it doesn't change mine. and Tibias...I know plenty of kats who hunt just for the sport of it.

The bottom line is, there is no way to defend or justify Vick's actions. And thats not what i'm doing. I'm just saying that "I" feel that there are plenty of things that are accepted in society that are just as bad or worse than "dog fighting"

So he deserves a shot at "Redemption"...to me.

CheramieIII

You know I might agree with the redemption thing one day but I still have yet to see or hear in Michael Vicks own words, "I did all of those things and I lied to everyone over and over again. I thought I was above the law and that I would never get caught. I am a stupid idiot and I have let everyone down. I don't deserve to play in the NFL and definitely don't deserve any of the money I was paid. I am going to donate all of my earnings over the last 5 years to the SPCA. I will start fresh with no money and earn your respect once again. I am sincerely sorry for what I've done and I swear I will never hurt another animal as long as I am alive. I beg mercy. The mercy I could not give to those dogs I beg of you because it will take me a long time to become human again."

Once he says all that on National TV then maybe, just maybe we can talk.

Golf and sex are about the only things you can enjoy without being good at them.
Jimmy Demaret