Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

Actually, I watched quite a few LSU games last year and focused a lot of attention on him because of all of the hype the media made about him. I did not say anything about previous years, but last year I did not see him as an NFL sure thing. That doesn't mean he won't turn out to be the greatest ever. I just mean he's as risky as any of the top picks and any of those could be flops.

Sure, he had lots of good moments, but he also had long stretches of doing nothing. Those were periods that concerned me and left me with questions about him: Does he take plays off? Is he overwhelmed by college linemen double teaming him? Is he injury prone? I think these are valid questions about him as a football player after watching the games last year and should cause every Saints fan concern when we hear a rumor that the team might move from 10 to 2 to get him.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

I did the same thing and I agree with what you're saying. The only thing I don't agree with is not seeing him as a sure thing. But that depends on your perception of what a sure thing. One thing I'm feel strongly about is that he won't be a flop... not even close. He might not be as good as his hype is concerned, but he'll be a solid pro nonetheless. And being a top 5 pick, the expectations are extremely high to start off with. I'd love to have him for the right price.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

You do know he played most of the year injured do to a cheap shot he took in the Auburn game and instead of sitting out the rest of the season which would have been understandable he played throuygh it and then when he got healthy for the championship game against Ohio state he was absolutely dominent. check out some game film on him when he's healthy and then get back to us.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

Can you say DOUBLE TEAM? Dorsey was double teamed, chop blocked, & playing through injuries in every single game last year. Now...take that into account & the fact that all this was happening in the SEC & you still don't think he's a sure thing? Huh? We are talking about a guy who has commanded double teams & still dominated in the nation's toughest football conference year in & year out & you still have questions? Unbelievable! What does a guy have to do to earn respect? All this, but you like Trevor "Shows up When?" Laws in the second? I'd definately give it up to move up & snag Dorsey. He's one of 5 players in this year's draft that are going to be for sure Pro Bowlers for years to come.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

they would have to give up a lot to get up to the 2nd pick like this years 1st and next years 1 to move up. i dont no if that a good idea. i would love Dorsey are even Gholston but thats a lot to give up. when they can just get Rivers. but if they move up i would still love Dorsey.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

What if they move up and take McFadden?

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

I thought about that when I read the article, too. With Sean Payton, that is a very good possibility as well.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

The price to move up to #2 from 10 isn't that steep at all. From the article and what others are saying the Rams seem to be content with swaping 1's and this years second, ONLY. Not next year's 1st rounder. Its probably still slighly in our favor based on the 'chart' but if a team is content who am I to argue.

The problem with the supposedly chart every one uses doesn't take into accout the talent available in that years draft nor finances. So that chart has flexibility... its just a guide.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

It wouldn't surprise me if they try to trick everyone into believing we want Dorsey and select McFadden. I love Dorsey so I hope we can get him. With Deuce's age and bad knees he's not the future. Pierre and Reggie is what we would have if Deuce goes down again. 1 year deal for Deuce...seems like they're going for McFadden to me.

Maybe the G-Men would take Deuce and a future pick (s) for Shockey? Then we'd have McFadden and Shockey on the offense...rather scary if you ask me. We basically need space eaters at DT with our LBs.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

I guess that could very well be a possibility but you could easily trade with Oakland and get him then. Of the teams more likely to draft Dorsey could be the Rams or Falcons. So go to the point of attack and it won't cost you as much.

Trading with the Falcons seems sinful but I'd hate to see Dorsey pounding Bush and Brees twice a year.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

I think you are missing the point that this about giving up so much for one player. I said I wasn't impressed with Dorsey last year based on the hype and what I got back were excuses: He was double-teamed! He was injured!

The bottom line is that many of you are jumping on this moving up to 2nd bandwagon to get him and claiming he's going to go to multiple pro bowls when there's a decent chance that he could turn out to be just an average NFL player at his position.

The year Reggie was drafted many experts said he was the closest thing ever to a sure thing yet he has not made a pro bowl yet. I'm going to guess that many of you are starting to have doubts if he ever will. That doesn't mean he's not a good player, but what if we had given up several picks to get him? I'm not knocking Reggie as I am glad we have him, but so far he's been good, not great.

So, with Dorsey we have to pay a similar price in salary plus trade picks to get him. Is the risk of him being good, not great worth all of that?

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

I am sorry but there are no excuses you are right. Dorsey dominated the SEC and the NCAA for more than one year and won a national championship. He has made excellant decisions on and off the field, I'll say again returning to win a National Championship - HE LIVED UP TO THE HYPE!!!

You are drafting a guy based on his performance in college and what he 'could' do for you in the NFL. Is he worth giving up a second round pick... HELL F'IN YES!

This guy looked intimidating in yellow and purple imagine what he looks like running at you in black??? LOL

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

LOL

That's running at me though. I'm just 5'9, 205. Of course, I'D be intimidated.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

Why would they take Deuce for when they have Jacobs and Bradshaw? Unless the future is a 2nd or 1st so they are basically taking his contract? And Rubin in the third would be our space eater for Vilma.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

space eaters???

We have that now. Get a DT that has to be double teamed and your LB's will be even better weapons. If they don't double Dorsey they will pay a price with just him alone.

Our DT's are good at sitting back and letting the ball carrier come to them to make the tackle.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

Dude, no offense but you don't have a clue about what you are talking about. I've watched every snap Dorsey has ever played at LSU and when healthy he was one of the most dominant DT in college football history. A BS chop block against Auburn and then him playing on basically one leg from that point on doesn't take away from what he did in four years of college. When healthy, he CONSISTANTLY beats double teams and makes tackles in opposing teams backfields. He is the best player in this draft and it's not even close. IF we can get him for this years 1st and 2nd I think we have to do it. Saying this, I think this is more smoke than fire and I think it is far more likely we trade up to get Ellis.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

It seems Shockey will be leaving this year or the next. Deuce and Jacobs suit the Giants' running game pretty well with Bradshaw as a change-of-pace player. Deuce will get more mileage running with Jacobs, he catches a lot better than Jacobs, and the Giants could pound the ball in December/January all they wanted.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

First, you couldn't mean anything but offense by saying I don't have a clue so why cower behind the "no offense" phrase? Be a man.

Second, it's funny. I just got through reading ESPN's 50 biggest draft busts articles (it includes Sully, btw - I knew it would). I imagine that for many of those players listed therein that there plenty of homers like yourself that had glowing things to say about those players only to watch them crash and burn in the NFL.

So, before you tell me what I do not have a clue about, dude, try to recognize that I am only expressing MY concerns about this deal based on the real possibility that he could turn out to be a dud. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it is at least a possibility.

And hey, thanks for yet another excuse about his play last year. It just goes to show that you, too, know he didn't have a great year.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

to me, the more i think about it, i believe the saints, perhaps loomis is shaking the tree......maybe he wants to see if anyone gets scared or maybe, just maybe, he has something worked out with someone higher up. kinda a ripple effect if you will.......it certainly is making the rounds, so maybe it is working, we'll see............

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

I'd be a lot happier about this deal if a dominant DT was the only thing we needed on defense. It makes sense to trade up to get the piece that will take you over the top. It will almost certainly cost us our second round pick to make the deal happen. What that says is, "I'm happy with what I have on defense."

The problem is that our defense needs lots of help, and FA is essentially over. The CB situation is the most terrifying. McKenzie had a terrific year last year but may not be back, or not be back to form. We acquired Gay, but he seems like a "system" CB (see Jason David). Usama Young is unproven, don't even talk to me about Jason David. Then there's Jason Craft.... Aaron Glenn....

Our LB corps is extremely lacking as well. Everyone wants to insert Vilma as a productive LB. Problem is he has NOT been that in several years and he's coming of the "mystery" injury. I have hope for Vilma. I know many of the experts say that his production dropped because the Jets went to the 3-4. Does this not make him a role player? I know we have the right role for him, but still this is enough to at least have some doubt that he is the answer to our LB problems. If he's not, it's Simoneau again.....

We acquired Dan Morgan, who could be good if he can get on the field and stay there. Even so, he was brought in to compete with Shanle for a starting spot. If Shanle is competition to you, I would not call you an even average LB.

I like Fujita, so I'll give him a pass. He wasn't the first choice as a starter on some of his prior teams - but's he's lightyears better than any else we have on our roster.

We could use some help in coverage at safety. We could use some consistent inside pass rush - and yes, I know this makes coverage look better when you have it. All the same, our defense has far too many problems for me to feel comfortable about "breaking the bank" to get one player - even if its a great one like Dorsey.

I could live with it, if it happened - but I'm just not certain it's the best move for the team.



Edited to add "NOT" to my point about Vilma above
- Frenzy

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

Our CB situation is fine for now. I disagree with you there. Big Mike is ahead of schedule and will start for us at CB. You saying that you think Gay is a "system CB" says to me that you have done no research on him at all. He has played Man Coverage before and will thrive in our system, even if he's only there as a Nickle corner.

Usama is young and unproven but that doesn't mean he won't step in and play well for us. It's not his fault he's unproven. Every player is unproven until they step up and win a starting job, which is exactly what I think he'll do this season.

Our LB corps seem strong IMO. We have Vilma starting at MLB and a great backup in Simoneau (who can play all LB positions). Dan Morgan can come back healthy and start for us, and if need be we'll insert Scott Shanle or a WLB Draft Pick in his place. SLB seems to be fine right now with Fujita filling that role nicely. Assuming injuries aren't a HUGE problem we'll be fine at LB.

I think Dorsey WOULD put us pretty much over the top.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

No I think Dorsey had a great year! Not as great as previous ok but its still a great year by any other DT in the NCAA besides maybe Ellis. Giving up a 2nd for Dorsey is a no brainer... what he will do for our D over all will be night and day. You want CB help you get Dorsey. You want Saftey help you get Dorsey. You want LB help you get Dorsey. Sure winning a national championship is a team deal but you can't tell me he wasn't the anchor of that team.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

I have to absolutely agree with you 100 percent here. What Dorsey will bring is youth, leadership, and domance on the DL. He will free LB's, Help the CB's maintaining man to man coverage by not giving the opposing teams all day to pass. The Safties can stand around all they want then hell they'll be able to blitz as well and get to the QB while Dorsey takes on 2-3-4 OLinemen. Ok stretch with 4 but they will all be watching that young man.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

Besides whats the worse that can happen to us drafting Dorsey??? we make the playoffs.

This also becomes a positive political move in the state of Louisiana. It wasn't that long ago we debated law makers in Baton Rouge over keeping the Saints in NO and how they treated New Oleans Saints compared to LSU Football. It'll start to build a bridge, keeping their alumni close to home so they can watch them and root for the home team for a change.

Its been awhile since I have been home but I know there are a lot of LSU fans don't care much for the Saints, which I don't understand but ok.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

Almost everything you assume will be a positive for our defense is a possibility, not a certainty. All of your assertions display a lot of optimism, which is great. They are by no means a done deal.

McKenzie may defy the odds and be ready at the beginning of the season, but that would be well outside the norm for his injury. Recovery is typically right around 12 months and he tore his ACL on Dec 23. If he's ready by the season opener, that would be 8 months from the injury (not the surgery since I don't know exactly when he had it) - optimistic I would say.

Gay is absolutely a system CB. He's played more man-to-man than Jason David, but he's not even a starter for the Patriots. For the record, he was an undrafted FA. He started part of one year (2004) due to injuries to both starting corners. He was out parts of both 2005 and 2006 with injuries (placed on IR). He played in 2007, mostly as a nickel back and backup safety. I like the signing but I'm realistic about his abilities.

Usama might be the next shutdown corner, but so far we haven't seen it and thus it's just as possible he could be the next Jason David. Vilma may be everything he used to be, I hope he is but until he shows something on the field it's all "maybe". Dan Morgan might be healthy, might start, and might stay healthy.

Since you didn't talk about any of the others, I'll assume you agree with all the rest. Without the very rosy optimism, that still leaves a lot of question about almost every spot on our defense. The only area on our D I am comfortable with is DE. DT is a weakness, but not even in the same arena as LB and CB.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

First of all let me thank you for coming out and opening up for this intelligent discussion rather than blasting me for my opinions in the above post. I appreciate good people.

To address McKenzie, he's stated in blogs on myspace that he's wayyy ahead of schedule as far as his recovery, and it's been stated by the coaching staff quite a few times.

I guess we'll agree to disagree about Gay. I think the guy is extremely underrated. I'm not saying he's going to come in and be a great starter for us, but I believe he'll be averages and that is all we really need. Wouldn't you agree that if we take away Jason David last season adn replace him with an average CB we're in the playoffs guaranteed? I certainly believe so. I think I'm being realistic too when I say Gay can be a solid/decent/average starter for our football club.

To touch on Usama, I really don't think there is any chance this guy can possibly be as bad as Jason David is. He's strictly a better athlete than David, by far. Look at his measurables, his combine statistics. He was a rookie last year and for him to touch the field as much as he did I find encouraging. I think he can start for us sometime this year.

Other than Gay my opinions are basically identical to yours, except that I'm hoping things work out in our favor. I can agree with you that theres less risk involved if we just select someone like Keith Rivers in the 1st and grab a DT in the 2nd, I'm willing to gamble here on Dorsey because I see the guy being a constant Pro Bowl type player 10 years running.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

I have no doubt whatsoever that our front seven are already ten times better than last year, just because Vilma is replacing Simoneau. Our front seven will make our DB's look 5X better. If Morgan isn't available, Shanle can step in or up and play the position he's played for 2 years. If Dorsey or Ellis were here, it would be flat out amazing in my opinion. Heck, why not use our 3rd to bring in Dre Moore or get Okam in the 5th to grow beside Dorsey/Ellis.
The only area of our Offense with need is TE in my opinion, but all of our starters from last year are back (except Faine), and I really think Meachem will be solid this year if not above average.
I say go for either one (Dorsey is my preference, especially if our first and second are all we have to give up)

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

Is homerism a word?
If Dorsey is such a lock for Hall of Fame would trading up to #2 be enough? Surely no team could pass on such a sure-thing. Wont we be gettin into a bidding war when somehow after Dorsey falls to #2 every other team will call the Rams and give away their entire draft for this game changing DT. Maybe 30 other teams didnt see all the LSU games and werent convinced Dorsey single-handedly won the BcS title.
Was Dorsey involved in the 8 fourth down conversions LSU made to beat Florida? How bout all those cute fake fieldgoals they somehow converted? I seem to remember somekinda hail mary pass they used to win a game once too.
Yes he would be an upgrade, yes he would be a big upgrade. I also think Rivers would be an upgrade and yes a big upgrade. I think the talent you could pick up with the #10 and #40 pick is too much to gamble away moving up in the draft.
By the way how is his broken leg? Would he sit out any time for a full recovery? What about surgery?

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

$20 says this debate continues for 9 more days before coming to an abrupt halt :-P

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

Sounds like someone is an LSU hater?

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

Gay is much better than people here are giving him credit for. I have watch him since he came to new england. Is he a top 5 shut down corner? No. He is a solid CB that is smart. That puts him with M&M. There is not much difference between the to. They play ball and are darn good at it. That what you have in Gay. If M&M retires tomorrow you have his replacement. To me thats an upgrade to the secondary.
Young? well after what I saw last year I have a lot of faith in the kid. He came a long way last year and still has a way to go. The small school jump. I think you will see him improve again this year by leaps and bounds. Is he ready for the Island? Probably not but he may be out there in 2009.
As for trading up, who to say Dorsey is the player? It makes sense needs wise but thats about it. Either one of the Longs, McFadden and Gholston are all options also. We could also be ready to trade almost any player on the roster on draft day to. This draft maybe a mirror image of the 2007 draft. Trades happening on both days. Players added through both the draft and trades. I am looking forward to seeing the chess match this year.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

lol. Well, let's define word:

a unit of language, consisting of one or more spoken sounds or their written representation, that functions as a principal carrier of meaning.

You may not find "homerism" in Webster's, but it does fit the definition and is, thus, a word.

I wouldn't bother responding to the "hater" comment a tiger fan wrote following your post. Some people see the world through purple and gold sunglasses which taints their ability to see that not everything said about the team must contain a prefix like "greatest" or "best", etc.

I thought your post simply pointed out that the team did a lot to win the championship with Dorsey standing on the sidelines. That doesn't sound like hater language to me.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

I am also not 100% sold on the strength of our CB and LB situation. But there are two things that still make a possible trade to get Dorsey a HUGE upgrade for our defense. First off, you are not guaranteeing upgrades at all those positions by staying put. Again, you can draft 3 guys at each of those positions but outside of getting Rivers, you likely will not see any of the guys you draft make much of an impact. IMO there are no impact players at DT aside from Dorsey and Ellis. CBs, no matter how good, take time to develop especially in the type of defense that we play. So staying put you get an impact player in Rivers. Rivers versus Dorsey - who makes the rest of your defense better? As Euph stated and has been stated before, the things that an impact DT opens up for the rest of your defense is tremendous. Anyone who has ever played a lick on the defense of any level football team knows the value of having a DT ahead or beside you who must be often accounted for by two lineman each play. I hear the concerns about the money for a #2 instead of a #10, but this is team that is ready to win soon.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

excellent post.. great points all the way around

on a side note.. i dont know why everyone is so concerned with our cap space.. we are about 30 million under the cap at the moment and will have plent of room to resign all of our big name FAs next year no matter who we pick this year

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

So basically what we are saying is anyone is up for us to get if we trade up to number 2. And if its Matt Ryan there will be alot of pissed off Saints fans. Atleast we can agree on its defense if we trade up.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

When was Dorsey sitting on the sidelines? :(

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

Um, when the offense and FG units were on the field.

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

yes but we all know that "Defense wins Championships"!!!!!!!!!! and Dorsey was the Leader of that Defense

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

I'm going to say this & then I'm going to leave it alone....

Dorsey won a national championship, the Outland award, the Nagurski award, the Lombardi award, & the Lott award. To think that he won all these things while being double teamed & hurt most of the season, surely one would have to see his worth.

Now...if that's not proof enough that he's the best defensive player in this year's draft, what else do you need. Here's an idea....watch video of him busting through double teams & making plays in the backfield for the last three seasons & make an educated decision. Whether you want to call it "Purple & Gold Glasses Syndrome" or whatever....the simple fact that he was the best defensive player last year has already been decided by the awards he received by the people who evaluate the players in the NCAA.

ScottyRo....could your opinion on Dorsey be tainted by the fact that he dominated your home team Hokies this year to the point they hardly saw the LSU side of the field? Adibi hardly made any plays in that game & got abused like a $2 hooker. I'd still be happy picking Adibi in the 2nd or 3rd round, because I still feel he's a good LB. C'mon man....take those Hokie glasses off & see Glen Dorsey for the dominant DT he is. :)

Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
 

Awww that explains it he's a Hokie fan lol....Now I can Understand that outrage after taking that beat down like they did.