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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
I am sorry but you want to put the best guys on the field always!!! Why would you want to start the 4-5 best guys in their position? Makes no sense. You win with the best, you win with attitude and desire and Dorsey had displayed this all his life.
Essentially you have to take the Fantasy Football approach. You draft the best player don't you? You don't settle for a bunch of 'ok' guys. You can only start so many players... Its like saying you'd pass on Payton Manning in order to have Trent Dilfer and Thomas Jones. I am taking Payton Manny sorry. |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
I'm all for improving our pass rush, and I can't help but agree with Euph and SFIAH that this is of greater importance than a CB. However, I am also in favor of improving our run defense. Of course, these stud DTs will help us, do both (improve pass rush and run defense). However, if we can get LB Rivers at 10, I don't see too much need to carry the cost of moving up to #2.
The addition of Vilma is great, but the addition of Rivers and Vilma will go a long way toward stopping the run - which has also been a consistent problem for our defense. |
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You are also assuming that Dorsey is going to face undersized O-linemen with poor technique every Sunday in the NFL. I’d be ok if the Saints stood pat at #10 and picked Rivers then picked Laws/Connor/Mayo at #40. |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
Sounds like he's suggesting a Ricky Williams type draft doesn't it? Unless it's a high one, the rest are pretty much irrelevant. Plenty of impact players can be had rounds 1-7... you just got to know how to pick them.
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ProFootballTalk.com - SAINTS STILL LOOKING TO MOVE UP |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
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Also I am ok with hanging back at 10 but I don't see us getting a player who is going impact our d as much as Dorsey will. Thats why I say its actually better to move up and snag Dorsey addressing our our DL. |
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You feel (very strongly) that Dorsey is a can't-miss player so it's worth giving up our second round pick for. Other people feel that when our round 2 pick comes up, there will still be impact players on the board. Our history of drafts with this coaching staff has been a 50/50 line. One year, we couldn't miss with our draft picks - the next they all seem to be struggling (and that's being kind in some cases). If this is the year where we are "on", and considering the many needs our defense has, it may be better to take two impact players than just Dorsey. For my part, I'll be a little disappointed if we trade up - but at the same time I'll be excited to see what Dorsey can do. He was great in college, but I have to agree when it was pointed out that players in the NFL (and particularly NFL linemen) are not undersized, like they are in college. I'd be hopeful, but only time would tell if Dorsey can immediately handle the transition to an NFL level. If we trade up and get Ellis, would you still consider it a bargain? After all, your whole argument says that we need DTs to provide pass rush and thereby give the illusion that our secondary is better than it is. |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
Well done and great post. :)
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
I never said ""guaranteed"", I have agreed its a crap shoot in previous posts??? People just like stirring trouble up and not seeing the whole situation are what all was said.
In this draft a round 2-4 DT will not make a great as impact as Dorsey. Just don't see it... they don't compare to what Dorsey has accomplished. We have a lot of bodies on the roster and they aren't going anywhere. Hell draft another CB and he will look foolish with no pass rush. Its time to fix the realy problem and that is up front first and formost. If you read the whole thread you'd see my take on the whole situation. I want the guy who decided to stay in college and compete for a Nation Championship. He set his goals which seemed nearly impossible playing in the tough SEC and he accomplish just that. His decision making, his heart, his attitude makes this guy a winner! I want a winner first and formost. Right now is the time to focus on getting him if he is the guy. Dolphins have committed now we need to see how far we can move up, and at what price. Ellis is irrelevant right now because Dorsey is the guy! I think many will agree you don't move up to #2 to get Ellis you take Dorsy. In a way the Saints were showing their hand and thats pretty ballsy, I like that. Its the same committment Dorsey showed to football and LSU. Until things change Dorsey is my guy. I can't say what I want the Saints to do with the 10th pick because who the hell is going to be there??? Its anyones guess. But I do know who is on the board with the #2 pick |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
I am just glad everyone here is not in the war room come Saturday. I think we would miss our pick. :-P
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
Reading this R2-R4 picks argument have no impact players, mediocre records argument...
Well, isn't that special...sound like SATAN to me... Let's look at some R3 picks in the about the last ten years, shall we... Curtis Martin, RB, Boston (NE to the rest of you) Tedy Bruschi, LB, NE Ronde Barber, CB, Bucs Mike Vrabel, LB, Steelers (now of NE) Jason Taylor, DE, Dolphins Hines Ward, WR, Steelers Olin Kreutz, C, Baers Joey Porter, LB, Steelers Laveranues Coles, WR, JETS Brian Westbrook, RB, Philly Jason Witten, TE, Cowboys Lance Briggs, LB, Baers Kevin Curtis, WR, Rams Ricky Manning, CB, Panthers Angelo Crowell, LB, Bills (And Haslett picked Cie Grant earlier in R3, Swell) Huggie Bear Fargas, RB, Raidars Chris Simms, QB, Bucs Matt Schaub, QB, Falcones (Brett Favre, Schaub, Gotta Love Those Falcon Choices on who to keep) Chris Cooley, TE, Redskins Bernard Berrian, WR, Baers Frank Gore, RB, San Fran Justin Tuck, DE, New York Giants Ellis Hobs, DB, NE Nick Kaczur, OL, NE James Jones, WR Green Bay Took about 5 minutes to cut/paste these guys while eating a piece of cake being forced-fed by my daughter, really... And Joe Montana was a Round 3 pick...sooooo.... the R2-R4 picks argument has no impact players is pretty much right there with the Earth is Flat Theory... And granted, though the Draft is somewhat a Roulette... I like what Grant Hill said of the famous/infamous ending to the Duke/Kentucky elite 8 game, "Luck favors the Prepared Man" Do your preparation... Bet as many numbers as you can... And the magic will happen... 90% of NFL front office jobs are for elite country club types who see less stress than a Cruise Director, but a select few take their jobs seriously, appreciate the game of football, and display a forthright work ethic that gets results... Man, I miss Jim Finks... As far as this On/Off year thing, the Saints need to gain picks as after their Off Year both at the draft and on the field, they better get it On are the fan base will turn, especially with only seven games at Da Dome this year... |
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Just for sh**s & giggles......how many of those great 3rd rounders were DT's? :) |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
Well, one could argue their position is now due...I like Dre Moore (though he's expected to be a R2 pick), Ahtyba Rubin, Pat Sims, Marcus Harrison, Frank Okam...
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Good find...but also keep in mind that you named 25 players from the past 10 years...assuming 32 picks (granted at times there were less teams and also there might be more than 32 due to comp picks) times 10 years is 320 3rd round picks...25/320= 7.8%. 7.8% times 32 picks in this years third round= 2.4. So theoretically, of all the picks in the third round, 2-3 of the players would be in the same status as the 25 guys you named. Again, value can be found all throughout the draft whether the value of the player is a franchise, all pro player, a quality starter, a career backup, or a special teams ace. Value is certainly available in the middle rounds but the chances of a guy turning into a quality starter isnt always so great. |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
Looking at the 2005 draft (3 years is a good benchmark for the development of a player).
First Round First round 1 San Francisco Alex Smith QB Utah 2 Miami Ronnie Brown RB Auburn 3 Cleveland Braylon Edwards WR Michigan 4 Chicago Cedric Benson RB Texas 5 Tampa Bay Carnell Williams RB Auburn 6 Tennessee Pacman Jones CB West Virginia 7 Minnesota (from Oakland) Troy Williamson WR South Carolina 8 Arizona Antrel Rolle CB Miami 9 Washington Carlos Rogers CB Auburn 10 Detroit Mike Williams WR Southern California 11 Dallas Demarcus Ware LB Troy State 12 San Diego (from NY Giants) Shawn Merriman LB Maryland 13 New Orleans (from Houston) Jammal Brown OT Oklahoma 14 Carolina Thomas Davis SS Georgia 15 Kansas City Derrick Johnson LB Texas 16 Houston (from New Orleans) Travis Johnson DT Florida State 17 Cincinnati David Pollack DE Georgia 18 Minnesota Erasmus James DE Wisconsin 19 St. Louis Alex Barron OT Florida State 20 Dallas (from Buffalo) Marcus Spears DE LSU 21 Jacksonville Matt Jones WR Arkansas 22 Baltimore Mark Clayton WR Oklahoma 23 Oakland (from Seattle) Fabian Washington CB Nebraska 24 Green Bay Aaron Rodgers QB California 25 Washington (from Denver) Jason Campbell QB Auburn 26 Seattle (from NY Jets thru Oakland) Chris Spencer C Mississippi 27 Atlanta Roddy White WR Alabama-Birmingham 28 San Diego Luis Castillo DT Northwestern 29 Indianapolis Marlin Jackson CB Michigan 30 Pittsburgh Heath Miller TE Virginia 31 Philadelphia Mike Patterson DT Southern California 32 New England Logan Mankins OT Fresno State Of those guys, I glanced through and identified 18 guys give or take that can be considered quality starters in the league. Third round 65 San Francisco Frank Gore RB Miami 66 St. Louis (from Miami) OJ Atogwe FS Stanford 67 Cleveland Charlie Frye QB Akron 68 Tennessee Courtney Roby WR Indiana 69 Oakland Andrew Walter QB Arizona State 70 Miami (from Chicago) Channing Crowder LB Florida 71 Tampa Bay Alex Smith TE Stanford 72 Detroit Stanley Wilson CB Stanford 73 Houston (from Dallas) Vernand Morency RB Oklahoma State 74 New York Giants Justin Tuck DE Notre Dame 75 Arizona Eric Green CB Virginia Tech 76 Denver (from Washington) Karl Paymah CB Washington State 77 Philadelphia (from Kansas City) Ryan Moats RB Louisiana Tech 78 Oakland (from Houston) Kirk Morrison LB San Diego State 79 Carolina Ethan Mathis OG Alabama 80 Minnesota Dustin Fox CB Ohio State 81 St. Louis Richie Incognito C Nebraska 82 New Orleans Alfred Fincher LB UConn 83 Cincinnati Chris Henry WR West Virginia 84 New England (from Baltimore) Ellis Hobbs CB Iowa State 85 Seattle David Greene QB Georgia 86 Buffalo Kevin Everett TE Miami 87 Jacksonville Scott Starks CB Wisconsin 88 New York Jets Sione Pouha DT Utah 89 Carolina (from Green Bay) Atiyyah Ellison DT Missouri Denver Forfeited pick 90 Atlanta Jordan Beck LB Cal-Poly 91 Tampa Bay (from San Diego) Chris Colmer OT North Carolina State 92 Indianapolis Vinnie Burns DE Kentucky 93 Pittsburgh Trai Essex OT Northwestern 94 San Francisco (from Philadelphia) Adam Snyder OT Oregon 95 Arizona (from New England) Darryl Blackstock LB Virginia 96(c) Tennessee Brandon Jones WR Oklahoma 97(c) Denver Domonique Foxworth CB North Carolina 98(c) Seattle Leroy Hill LB Clemson 99(c) Kansas City Dustin Colquitt P Tennessee 100(c) New England Nick Kaczur OG Toledo 101(c) Denver Maurice Clarett RB Ohio State I glanced and counted 7 guys who I would consider quality starters. Obviously, you are going to have a better chance of getting a quality starter in the first round than in the third. Just looking at this draft would you rather have a Ronnie Brown or Braylon Edwards (2 and 3) or Mike Williams and Josh Bullocks (ironic). Again, this is a vanilla way of looking at things but you have a much better chance of trading up and getting an impact player than the guys you will get staying put. There is certainly value in the middle rounds but as expected the prospect is much much more difficult to identify than in the first round. |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
There is always value to be had 2 to 3. 4th has also given us some good players. This year 2 through 4 looks to be one of the best mix of players we have seen in a long time. If the price is to high because of the lack of elite players in the top 5. Then you have to say no. Chris Long and Dorsey is all that is left. The others do not belong as high as they are. Teams know this and will try to cash in.
Do not sell the hen house before you sell the chickens. |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
What 18 guys would you consider quality starters?!? I see maybe half that number...
The argument is still made that their is significant talent in all rounds and it's putting together a total draft not just R1 picks that make a championship TEAM... Pats, Giants, Colts, look at their drafts and it's not just R1 picks that made their teams... And suppose, given his injury history, Dorsey goes down, who do you have to step up or pick up their game from their position?!? (Added) And in '03, didn't we move up to get "Can't Miss" Johnathan Sullivan when we could have had Troy Polamalu, Calvin Pace, Dallas Clark, Nnamdi Asomugha with later R1 picks?!? Again, too many people want to put Dorsey in a Wedding Dress (Rickey Williams Syndrome) |
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um no... we had relatively obscure johnathan sullivan.. he wasnt highly reguarded which is why everyone was scratching their heads when the saints traded up for him when he likely would have fallen to us at 16 |
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2. Braylon Edwards 3. Carlos Rogers 4. Demarcus Ware 5. Shawn Merriman 6. Jamaal Brown 7. Thomas Davis 8. Derrick Johnson 9. Travis Johnson 10. Mark Clayton 11. Fabian Washington 12. Jason CAmpbell 13. Chris Spencer 14. Luis Castillo 15. Marlin Jackson 16. Heath Miller 17. Logan Mankins Miscounted by 1. Oops. 17 players. |
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And who ever labeled Jonathan Sullivan as a cant miss prospect. Few people even had him ranked in the top 5 DTs coming out that year (Robertson, Jimmy Kennedy, William Joseph, Kevin Williams, Ty Warren) And what sort of football sense are you using to equate Dorsey to Sullivan? Dorsey - Strong, powerful, plays with good leverage Sullivan - Despite his size, plays too high and without proper leverage Dorsey - Hard worker, extremely active, non stop motor Sullivan - History of being labeled as lazy and takes plays off Dorsey - Agile and changes direction quickly Sullivan - HAHAHAHAHA Dorsey - Very experienced, 4 years as a regular sub or starter Sullivan - 1 year wonder |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2!!!
JKool,
Good to hear from you. It's been a while. Quote:
But the Saints biggest problem was the continue giving up of big plays over the top. And frankly it takes time for those plays to develop. It takes time in the pocket to do play action to bring up the safeties, and for receivers to do double moves. Eliminate that time and those types of plays go way down. The Saints defense in the middle was awfully weak last year. Personally I believe that if KK can get on the field it'll help in the defensive backfield in the middle, and the middle LB position is taken care of with Vilma. All that's left is that dynamic DT that pushes the pocket from the inside, demands double teams, and opens up the edge to our pass rushing ends that range from outstanding (Smith) to pretty good (Grant). At the will, I can hope that Morgan recovers. I can live with Shanle. I can look to the future with Evans. But the DT position is the missing piece to making the defense decent, if not dominant. Quote:
The DT is the glue that ties it all together. Install Dorsey next to Hollis, with Young to rotate and install the 3 end package with Grant coming inside, along with Fijita, Vilma, and Morgan, and that's a defense we can depend on not to let the game slip away. Even with the CB corps we have now. Even with David. Dare I say it, even with Bullocks if we can teach him not to bite on run fakes. It'll be a defense that will let Payton, Brees and the offense paint masterpieces with fearing that any mistake will cost the game. It'll be worth it. SFIAH |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
still trying to see hwo we are going to come up with 1300 pts. to make the trade work at #2. Atlanta I am kissing off. What player could we trading? Brown? Smith? Grant? I can not come up with many others worth the move.
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
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Consider, you would be giving multiple picks up for a guy that has already missed playing time at the collegiate level. While I appreciate Dorsey's Man-Up Effort to play hurt (probably why he was my favorite LSU player this past season), the fact is... Once the Big Mo gets in the picture and the "man has made it", most pro players tend to go 'Roger Dorn'... Money is spent, Picks are Gone, and you have a guy with a lot of potential eating at the buffet bar instead of terrorizing the opposition... To respond to another inquiry...their is significant value this year in several rounds for DT... The Saints can draft more than one DT which would give depth at a position that requires heavy rotation for the heavy guys... The Packers employed this philosophy with great success this past season and it took them to the NFC title game... I like Dorsey and I hope he has a great NFL career, but giving up picks for one player is a huge risk; as one blogger posted, to paraphrase, if the Saints are truly on the cusp and need depth to spell starters and get through a long season, you need younger players to energize the veteran's play and leadership... |
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As for money getting to a DT and him letting go of his weight, someone like Jonathan Sullivan who was NEVER considered to have a great passion for the game, a high motor, and took plays off would be easily affected by a fat check. But if Dorsey is in that same character, then why in hell would he play hurt through the pain last season and risk further injury when he could very simply take the rest of the season off and still get paid. Because he has a high motor, great character, great leadership, and a love of the game. The depth at DT after Ellis and Dorsey is questionable at best. In another draft, these two IMO would still be ahead of the rest, but guys like Balmer and Laws wouldnt even sniff the first day. I will agree with you that Saints are on the cusp but more than just depth and a young influx of players is need to take them to that point. They need an impact player on the interior of the line - an IMPACT player, not someone who can spell Hollis Thomas from time to time. And by adding Dorsey, you do get a favorable rotation on the line (Dorsey, Thomas, Young, McCray, Grant, and Smith) that can be used in different situations. |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
I recently read an article on the teams that are doing the best actually trade down not up. That can probably be argued all day also. I think we should stay exactly where we are or trade down, not up. I see no advantage to selling this draft or some of next year for ONE player. Especially because Dorsey scares me in that I continue to hear he is undersized. A lot of players do well in college because lineman are smaller than they are in the nfl and because your other d line members may be that much more dominant over the other teams o-line. Dorsey may be very good in the nfl. He might not to and isn't young already undersized for a true dt. Can we afford 2? I say stay where we are and if anything move back.
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
Where is this article? If you are the Atlanta Falcons this year, and you do not have high if any expectations for your team this year. You are in rebuilding mode. Then, the best course of action is to trade down to acquire a multitude of picks and fill your team with young players while also not adding much in terms of salaries.
However, if you are a team with high expectations and primed to make a run into the playoffs and at the SuperBowl, then you make the big play acquisitions (Patriots and Randy Moss and Adalius Thomas). You do not trade down and add guys that will complete for playing time. You bring in the guys who are hands down upgrades over what you have at the position and can make the immediate impact to take your team over the top. Dorsey is undersized if you are looking for a 320lbs anchor who does not so much generate a push as much as holds their ground. Dorsey is a disruptive player who penetrates the line and forces QBs to roll out of the pocket and RBs to make the first cuts before the line of scrimmage, both of which open up the rest of the defense to make plays. Also, one of his strengths is playing with great leverage and as we learned with the Jonathan Sullivan experiment, leverage can often be more important than sheer size. Also, granted the NFL trenches are much different than college trenches, but Dorsey played against top flight offensive lines and large offensive lines in the SEC throughout his career. Dorsey and Ellis are players who may not put up flashy stats in terms of tackles, sacks, etc but they are the impact players that can singlehandedly elevate the play of the other 10 defensive players around them. One of those players can upgrade an entire defense (Albert Haynesworth). Rivers and McKelvin are top 10 talent (some will debate that) but they can not improve the rest of the defense in the same way that an impact DT can. |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
The patriots, cowboys and colts are three teams they id'ed as using the moving back theory. I am not sure if it was on tv or if I read it. Let me look for it. Dude do yourself a favor, do not ever in any circumstance compare the best college teams to an nfl team. Dorsey will not come in and by himself make us a super bowl contender.
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
just like Randy Moss didn't come in and make the Patriots offense a million times better, right?
one player can change everything. see Colts defense with Bob Sanders, and Colts defense without Bob Sanders. |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
no sir you are wrong, one player does not make a team. Moss did not do that by himself. If memory serves and I think it does the pats brought in 3 new wide outs last year, didn't they???
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Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
Hey I must have watched that on tv. It must have been on nfl network or espn.
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Try to think about what a DT actually does for the defense. In addition to the obvious of making tackles, they occupy blockers. If a blocker can shed a DT and get the second line of the defense, then the best LB in the league will struggle to make a play. But if you have a player than can penetrate and occupy blockers, then your LBs are free to pursue the ball. If a DT can penetrate the line, QBs no longer have a pocket to throw out of. They are forced to roll out to one side and throw on the run. This decreases accuracy, helps the corners as they do not have to cover as long, blows offensive plays as the designed routes are now blown, and take away half of the field as even the best QBs do not throw the ball across their body often. No one player can make the other 10 players around them better like an impact DT. |
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Dude....think of the offensive linemen that have come out of the SEC....Kevin Mawae, Alan Faneca, Chris Samuels, Marcus McNeil, and so on. Hell....there's Williams from Vanderbilt this year! This arguement does not carry weight, especially when you take into account that Dorsey was double teamed the majority of the time. They won't be able to do that to him as much in the pros. Think of how much better that makes our defensive line. Now....you claim that Dorsey is undersized, right? The average offensive lineman in the NFL is 6'4" & 300 lbs. Dorsey is 6'2" & 300 lbs. How is he undersized? Maybe if you wanted a nose tackle for a 3-4 defense, he would be undersized. But...not when you play a 4-3. Sorry...I for one, say go get him. He's the best defensive player in the draft....by far. Why not? One solid DT is better than a bunch of "maybe" players. Again...quality is better than quantity. |
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And again, teams have benefited from trading down but IMO no more than from trading up. Bill Walsh drafted HOFers and built a dynasty by trading up in the draft. |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
well lets not argue about d-line, o-line importance. To me there is no more important a position on the field. I think the game is still won and loss there. I absolutely agree that there are players that help teams reach a level that without them they would not have reached. I reserve those generally for the QB spot. I am of course speaking about players like brees, brady, and manning to name some. I think those teams are in trouble without those players.
Mind you chief the pats with moss sb record 0-1, without 3-0. My point is this, does a player like moss assist the pats, yes. Does it hurt if they lose him, yes. Does it make or break them completely, no. Saunders from indy might have a little more impact than moss, when put in perspective to their teams. Neither though destroys the teams they play for the way said players above would. I have no issue getting dorsey if we are not mortgaging our future. I think though to stay at 10 still gets you a player that can help you and if you are wrong does not destroy your team this year and next. That is what you could be risking by trying to move from 10-2 and if you are wrong. |
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1. Dorsey has NEVER missed a game in college due to injury... 2. If you think that Dorsey is going to go "Roger Dorn" then you dont know Glenn Dorsey.. 3. The potential between Dorsey, Ellis, and the rest is huge.. there is no way you could make a case as to any of the other DTs.. 4. Dorsey wouldnt be there to spell the starters.. he would be there to START.. bryan young would be the backup DT and thats where he should be... he doesnt have the ability to be a fulltime starter and its one of the reasons we are lacking in the middle... |
Re: Saints Trying To Move Up To #2 or #3!!! update on p
BRsaintsfan your last point was a good one, when speaking about how the pats have no glaring need and how that your draft strategy can adjust as a result.
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