Jeremy Shockey

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-06-2008, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by Memnoch_TP

How can you even say that, like his team winning the SB has ANYTHING to do with the Saints need him to win the SB.

He can say this because the way his team won the SB is the way that the SB is won virtually every year. Quick: name the last TE that was the SB MVP. I'll wait.

You see, we could have been the #1 Offense last year, but just because we are the BEST does not mean that we can't get BETTER. Ford used to have that attitude, now they are trying to build cars the way Toyota does, so they can catch up in sales. When you hit #1 and stop trying to get even better, you get passed up.

I actually agree with that sentiment. But the numbers are simple:

#4 offense
#26 defense

So where do you need to get better?

Now the Saints gets props for doing exactly that. They spent the offseason improving the defense. Even the choice of the kicker in the 6th round was actually a defensive move (long kickoffs).

But the #1 offense made it to the SB last year. And they walked off the field without the trophy.

The numbers don't lie. SB offenses are all over the place. But SB defenses are either consistently great throughout the season, or get hot in the playoffs. But whichever team is playing the best defense in January wins the SB virtually every time.

I (obviously) can't say this enough, Shockey makes us BETTER. Not because Shockey is the greatest TE ever, but because he changes how defenses play against us, and he changes how opposing coaches plan for us. Shockey helps us the MOST by allowing us to choose the ground in the battle. He forces the opposing coaches make the plan that they HAVE to, not the plan that they WANT to.

Not too many people seem to realize the significance of this. Shockey starts helping us win before the game is even played.

I never really challenged the talent part of the equation. My only question is that why doesn't Shockey's production match those matchup problems? Guys like Winslow, Gates, and Gonzales get 90+ catches in a good year. Shockey has never been close to that.

As far as being a "Team Cancer", everyone gripes about their jobs. Seriously, as if you have never griped about your idiot employers. I don't CARE how much he makes, if I was surrounded by idiots I would say it out loud. He is not a thug or a criminal, he has no known substance abuse problems, he will only be a problem to a dysfunctional team.

Now here's where we part ways. Loudmouth malcontents MAKES teams dysfunctional. They create drama. They cause teammates to take sides, to have to defend positions, to lose focus. They take away attention from what's important, the team winning football games, and places it upon themselves.

The Saints don't have any of those types of guys right now. Bringing in Shockey can make that old adage come true:

One bad apple spoils the bunch.

Shockey makes us better. Better is good. There is no getting around this point. You don't have to like it, but you need to accept it.

There are three aspects to this better thing and you've only really addressed one:

1) Talent. A positive there.
2) Fit. Big negative there.
3) Cost. It's going to take some cheese to get the guy in here. We're going to have to give up a significant draft pick or a productive player (or both) to get him.

Two out of three of these need to be a positive to make it work and right now I see it as two thumbs down.

Now the really funny thing is that if I bring another talented malcontent into the discussion I'd get a completely different reaction.

Pacman Jones.

Now I wouldn't bring him in either for exactly the same reasons but in fact Dallas got a steal on the ledger sheet:

1) talent. I think that's been shown.
2) Fit. Triple negative here.
3) Cost. Nothing. A lowly conditional future draft pick with no bonus money in the contract.

If dude doesn't work out, he gets cut and it costs Dallas nothing.

The Saints will not be able to say the same with Shockey. He's a costly, risky gamble for production that has not yet to be shown to be much better than the production we've seen from the tight ends on staff.

One last point, from a production standpoint I really think that Shockey has a bigger stature in fans minds than the numbers suggest. Over his career he's been averaging about 60 catches, 600 yards, and 4 TD a year. Compare to Gonzales who averages 75 catches, 900 yards, and 6 TD a year or Gates who averages 68 catches, 875 yards and nearly 9 TDs a year.

So what I see is a moderately talented TE with a questionable locker room presence and a really high price tag.

And you wonder why I argue that this supposed trade is a really bad idea.

SFIAH

05-06-2008, 06:32 AM	#11
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,783	Re: payton wants shockey................... Originally Posted by Memnoch_TP How can you even say that, like his team winning the SB has ANYTHING to do with the Saints need him to win the SB. He can say this because the way his team won the SB is the way that the SB is won virtually every year. Quick: name the last TE that was the SB MVP. I'll wait. You see, we could have been the #1 Offense last year, but just because we are the BEST does not mean that we can't get BETTER. Ford used to have that attitude, now they are trying to build cars the way Toyota does, so they can catch up in sales. When you hit #1 and stop trying to get even better, you get passed up. I actually agree with that sentiment. But the numbers are simple: #4 offense #26 defense So where do you need to get better? Now the Saints gets props for doing exactly that. They spent the offseason improving the defense. Even the choice of the kicker in the 6th round was actually a defensive move (long kickoffs). But the #1 offense made it to the SB last year. And they walked off the field without the trophy. The numbers don't lie. SB offenses are all over the place. But SB defenses are either consistently great throughout the season, or get hot in the playoffs. But whichever team is playing the best defense in January wins the SB virtually every time. I (obviously) can't say this enough, Shockey makes us BETTER. Not because Shockey is the greatest TE ever, but because he changes how defenses play against us, and he changes how opposing coaches plan for us. Shockey helps us the MOST by allowing us to choose the ground in the battle. He forces the opposing coaches make the plan that they HAVE to, not the plan that they WANT to. Not too many people seem to realize the significance of this. Shockey starts helping us win before the game is even played. I never really challenged the talent part of the equation. My only question is that why doesn't Shockey's production match those matchup problems? Guys like Winslow, Gates, and Gonzales get 90+ catches in a good year. Shockey has never been close to that. As far as being a "Team Cancer", everyone gripes about their jobs. Seriously, as if you have never griped about your idiot employers. I don't CARE how much he makes, if I was surrounded by idiots I would say it out loud. He is not a thug or a criminal, he has no known substance abuse problems, he will only be a problem to a dysfunctional team. Now here's where we part ways. Loudmouth malcontents MAKES teams dysfunctional. They create drama. They cause teammates to take sides, to have to defend positions, to lose focus. They take away attention from what's important, the team winning football games, and places it upon themselves. The Saints don't have any of those types of guys right now. Bringing in Shockey can make that old adage come true: One bad apple spoils the bunch. Shockey makes us better. Better is good. There is no getting around this point. You don't have to like it, but you need to accept it. There are three aspects to this better thing and you've only really addressed one: 1) Talent. A positive there. 2) Fit. Big negative there. 3) Cost. It's going to take some cheese to get the guy in here. We're going to have to give up a significant draft pick or a productive player (or both) to get him. Two out of three of these need to be a positive to make it work and right now I see it as two thumbs down. Now the really funny thing is that if I bring another talented malcontent into the discussion I'd get a completely different reaction. Pacman Jones. Now I wouldn't bring him in either for exactly the same reasons but in fact Dallas got a steal on the ledger sheet: 1) talent. I think that's been shown. 2) Fit. Triple negative here. 3) Cost. Nothing. A lowly conditional future draft pick with no bonus money in the contract. If dude doesn't work out, he gets cut and it costs Dallas nothing. The Saints will not be able to say the same with Shockey. He's a costly, risky gamble for production that has not yet to be shown to be much better than the production we've seen from the tight ends on staff. One last point, from a production standpoint I really think that Shockey has a bigger stature in fans minds than the numbers suggest. Over his career he's been averaging about 60 catches, 600 yards, and 4 TD a year. Compare to Gonzales who averages 75 catches, 900 yards, and 6 TD a year or Gates who averages 68 catches, 875 yards and nearly 9 TDs a year. So what I see is a moderately talented TE with a questionable locker room presence and a really high price tag. And you wonder why I argue that this supposed trade is a really bad idea. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.