Jeremy Shockey

Memnoch_TP · 05-06-2008, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

He can say this because the way his team won the SB is the way that the SB is won virtually every year. Quick: name the last TE that was the SB MVP. I'll wait.

Again, this has NOTHING to do with anything.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

I actually agree with that sentiment. But the numbers are simple:

#4 offense
#26 defense

So where do you need to get better?

Where do you need to get better? Offense, Defense, Special Team, Training and Conditioning, Medical, Coaching, and Front Office.

Just because Defense needs the most help does not mean it should get ALL of it, and we need to improve across the board, every year, in every way.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

But the #1 offense made it to the SB last year. And they walked off the field without the trophy.

The numbers don't lie. SB offenses are all over the place. But SB defenses are either consistently great throughout the season, or get hot in the playoffs. But whichever team is playing the best defense in January wins the SB virtually every time.

Okay, great. I will agree the numbers don't lie, but they also don't mean anything. I don't care about offensive numbers or TE SB MVPs. Shockey did not help his team win the SB, but he damn well helped them to get to it.

I want a player who can help us get TO a Super Bowl, even a dysfunctional one like the Giants.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

I never really challenged the talent part of the equation. My only question is that why doesn't Shockey's production match those matchup problems? Guys like Winslow, Gates, and Gonzales get 90+ catches in a good year. Shockey has never been close to that.

Again, you have to look at the teams and NOT just the numbers. Winslow, Gates, and Gonzales play on teams with NO Wide Receivers. Edwards is finally stepping up in Cleveland, but SD and KC have no WRs. Keenan McCardell, Sammy Parker, Eddie Kinnison, they have no one BUT the TE to throw to and haven't for years! In SD Gates leads receptions, usually followed by LT. Your #1 WR coming in 3rd for catches on your team to the TE and RB is not optimum.

Shockey's performance does not match theirs because they HAVE PEOPLE TO THROW TO in the New York.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Now here's where we part ways. Loudmouth malcontents MAKES teams dysfunctional. They create drama. They cause teammates to take sides, to have to defend positions, to lose focus. They take away attention from what's important, the team winning football games, and places it upon themselves.

The Saints don't have any of those types of guys right now. Bringing in Shockey can make that old adage come true:

One bad apple spoils the bunch.

You realize that old adage was started by incompetent leaders who didn't want the sheep to rock the boat and therefore point out their incompetence.

The malcontents are the result of screwed up teams. Go look at all the Giants news from the last few years. The whole team has been pretty unhappy with the coaching staff since Coughlin got there. Shockey is not the CAUSE of the Giants problems, he is the public admission of their problems.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

There are three aspects to this better thing and you've only really addressed one:

1) Talent. A positive there.
2) Fit. Big negative there.
3) Cost. It's going to take some cheese to get the guy in here. We're going to have to give up a significant draft pick or a productive player (or both) to get him.

Two out of three of these need to be a positive to make it work and right now I see it as two thumbs down.

Fit is not a problem. We have a good organization and solid leadership. Your lack of faith in the leadership of the team disturbs me a bit. Drew and Payton can handle Shockey, because they are not inept.

As for cost, I'll trade a productive player for a game-changing player any day of the week. A pawn can be very productive in chess, but I will still trade one for an extra knight or bishop any day, thanks.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Now the really funny thing is that if I bring another talented malcontent into the discussion I'd get a completely different reaction.

Pacman Jones.

Now I wouldn't bring him in either for exactly the same reasons but in fact Dallas got a steal on the ledger sheet:

1) talent. I think that's been shown.
2) Fit. Triple negative here.
3) Cost. Nothing. A lowly conditional future draft pick with no bonus money in the contract.

If dude doesn't work out, he gets cut and it costs Dallas nothing.

The Saints will not be able to say the same with Shockey. He's a costly, risky gamble for production that has not yet to be shown to be much better than the production we've seen from the tight ends on staff.

Oh wow, a different person in a different situation being considered differently? How crazy is that? It's almost like complaining about your coach and being involved in shootings in strip clubs are totally different. It's almost like... like... like Pacman and Shockey are NOT the same person! Oh, wait, that is right, they are not!

Pacman Jones is someone who has the added risk of not being able to play. Even if he wasn't currently suspended, how long until he is suspended again? Pac-man is someone I would not want living in New Orleans.

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

One last point, from a production standpoint I really think that Shockey has a bigger stature in fans minds than the numbers suggest. Over his career he's been averaging about 60 catches, 600 yards, and 4 TD a year. Compare to Gonzales who averages 75 catches, 900 yards, and 6 TD a year or Gates who averages 68 catches, 875 yards and nearly 9 TDs a year.

So what I see is a moderately talented TE with a questionable locker room presence and a really high price tag.

And you wonder why I argue that this supposed trade is a really bad idea.

SFIAH

Again, compare the Giants receivers to the SD and KC receivers. The only TE's that consistently outperform Shockey statwise are the ones who are the PRIMARY RECEIVERS for their teams! I am not taking anything away from Gonzales and Gates, but do you think they would have the stats they do if they played along side Marvin and Reggie or Issac and Tory? Their stats are padded because they get all the balls.

Shockey is not coming in to get 90+ catches a year, that is not why we want him. We want him because those 60 catches he makes are the tough ones Johnson drops.

RickyInKenner · 05-06-2008, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Memnoch_TP

Again, this has NOTHING to do with anything.

this is pretty much what I think every time I see a post telling me how bad picking up Shockey would be.

drew bledsoe got injured in 00 and tom brady led the patriots to a super bowl win. i guess drew bledsoe is terrible and a locker room cancer!

lol. so silly.

ssmitty · 05-06-2008, 06:36 PM

please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't believe the giants would ever have made the playoffs without the play of shockey in some games. shockey had a part in not one, but a few games that the giants won in order to even get them to the wild card playoffs......
so, how important was he? or, how unimportant was he?
how about some stats.........

Michael Eisen - Story - 1.1 Giants Stats Review - Giants.com
Game On: Jeremy Shockey
Giants Bits | New York Giants Blog » 2007 » September
Michael Eisen - Story - 12.18 Tuesday Stats Review - Giants.com

and giants forum talking about him....
New York Giants Message Boards - Dealing with a possible reality that Shockey is a Saint

now, one can argue shockey did not do it alone, and i'd agree 100%, but
i do believe without his play in the regular season the giants would never have got to the wild card spot, and the patriots would be 19-0..
so, put that in your pipe and smoke it.............smitty

05-06-2008, 01:47 PM	#1
Memnoch_TP Logic Troll Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern Louisiana Posts: 565	Re: payton wants shockey................... Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL He can say this because the way his team won the SB is the way that the SB is won virtually every year. Quick: name the last TE that was the SB MVP. I'll wait. Again, this has NOTHING to do with anything. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL I actually agree with that sentiment. But the numbers are simple: #4 offense #26 defense So where do you need to get better? Where do you need to get better? Offense, Defense, Special Team, Training and Conditioning, Medical, Coaching, and Front Office. Just because Defense needs the most help does not mean it should get ALL of it, and we need to improve across the board, every year, in every way. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL But the #1 offense made it to the SB last year. And they walked off the field without the trophy. The numbers don't lie. SB offenses are all over the place. But SB defenses are either consistently great throughout the season, or get hot in the playoffs. But whichever team is playing the best defense in January wins the SB virtually every time. Okay, great. I will agree the numbers don't lie, but they also don't mean anything. I don't care about offensive numbers or TE SB MVPs. Shockey did not help his team win the SB, but he damn well helped them to get to it. I want a player who can help us get TO a Super Bowl, even a dysfunctional one like the Giants. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL I never really challenged the talent part of the equation. My only question is that why doesn't Shockey's production match those matchup problems? Guys like Winslow, Gates, and Gonzales get 90+ catches in a good year. Shockey has never been close to that. Again, you have to look at the teams and NOT just the numbers. Winslow, Gates, and Gonzales play on teams with NO Wide Receivers. Edwards is finally stepping up in Cleveland, but SD and KC have no WRs. Keenan McCardell, Sammy Parker, Eddie Kinnison, they have no one BUT the TE to throw to and haven't for years! In SD Gates leads receptions, usually followed by LT. Your #1 WR coming in 3rd for catches on your team to the TE and RB is not optimum. Shockey's performance does not match theirs because they HAVE PEOPLE TO THROW TO in the New York. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Now here's where we part ways. Loudmouth malcontents MAKES teams dysfunctional. They create drama. They cause teammates to take sides, to have to defend positions, to lose focus. They take away attention from what's important, the team winning football games, and places it upon themselves. The Saints don't have any of those types of guys right now. Bringing in Shockey can make that old adage come true: One bad apple spoils the bunch. You realize that old adage was started by incompetent leaders who didn't want the sheep to rock the boat and therefore point out their incompetence. The malcontents are the result of screwed up teams. Go look at all the Giants news from the last few years. The whole team has been pretty unhappy with the coaching staff since Coughlin got there. Shockey is not the CAUSE of the Giants problems, he is the public admission of their problems. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL There are three aspects to this better thing and you've only really addressed one: 1) Talent. A positive there. 2) Fit. Big negative there. 3) Cost. It's going to take some cheese to get the guy in here. We're going to have to give up a significant draft pick or a productive player (or both) to get him. Two out of three of these need to be a positive to make it work and right now I see it as two thumbs down. Fit is not a problem. We have a good organization and solid leadership. Your lack of faith in the leadership of the team disturbs me a bit. Drew and Payton can handle Shockey, because they are not inept. As for cost, I'll trade a productive player for a game-changing player any day of the week. A pawn can be very productive in chess, but I will still trade one for an extra knight or bishop any day, thanks. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Now the really funny thing is that if I bring another talented malcontent into the discussion I'd get a completely different reaction. Pacman Jones. Now I wouldn't bring him in either for exactly the same reasons but in fact Dallas got a steal on the ledger sheet: 1) talent. I think that's been shown. 2) Fit. Triple negative here. 3) Cost. Nothing. A lowly conditional future draft pick with no bonus money in the contract. If dude doesn't work out, he gets cut and it costs Dallas nothing. The Saints will not be able to say the same with Shockey. He's a costly, risky gamble for production that has not yet to be shown to be much better than the production we've seen from the tight ends on staff. Oh wow, a different person in a different situation being considered differently? How crazy is that? It's almost like complaining about your coach and being involved in shootings in strip clubs are totally different. It's almost like... like... like Pacman and Shockey are NOT the same person! Oh, wait, that is right, they are not! Pacman Jones is someone who has the added risk of not being able to play. Even if he wasn't currently suspended, how long until he is suspended again? Pac-man is someone I would not want living in New Orleans. Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL One last point, from a production standpoint I really think that Shockey has a bigger stature in fans minds than the numbers suggest. Over his career he's been averaging about 60 catches, 600 yards, and 4 TD a year. Compare to Gonzales who averages 75 catches, 900 yards, and 6 TD a year or Gates who averages 68 catches, 875 yards and nearly 9 TDs a year. So what I see is a moderately talented TE with a questionable locker room presence and a really high price tag. And you wonder why I argue that this supposed trade is a really bad idea. SFIAH Again, compare the Giants receivers to the SD and KC receivers. The only TE's that consistently outperform Shockey statwise are the ones who are the PRIMARY RECEIVERS for their teams! I am not taking anything away from Gonzales and Gates, but do you think they would have the stats they do if they played along side Marvin and Reggie or Issac and Tory? Their stats are padded because they get all the balls. Shockey is not coming in to get 90+ catches a year, that is not why we want him. We want him because those 60 catches he makes are the tough ones Johnson drops.
	"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -- Douglas Adams.

05-06-2008, 05:59 PM	#2
RickyInKenner Registered Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 60	Re: payton wants shockey................... Originally Posted by Memnoch_TP Again, this has NOTHING to do with anything. this is pretty much what I think every time I see a post telling me how bad picking up Shockey would be. drew bledsoe got injured in 00 and tom brady led the patriots to a super bowl win. i guess drew bledsoe is terrible and a locker room cancer! lol. so silly.
RickyInKenner Registered Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 60

05-06-2008, 06:36 PM	#3
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	Re: payton wants shockey................... please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't believe the giants would ever have made the playoffs without the play of shockey in some games. shockey had a part in not one, but a few games that the giants won in order to even get them to the wild card playoffs...... so, how important was he? or, how unimportant was he? how about some stats......... Michael Eisen - Story - 1.1 Giants Stats Review - Giants.com Game On: Jeremy Shockey Giants Bits \| New York Giants Blog » 2007 » September Michael Eisen - Story - 12.18 Tuesday Stats Review - Giants.com and giants forum talking about him.... New York Giants Message Boards - Dealing with a possible reality that Shockey is a Saint now, one can argue shockey did not do it alone, and i'd agree 100%, but i do believe without his play in the regular season the giants would never have got to the wild card spot, and the patriots would be 19-0.. so, put that in your pipe and smoke it.............smitty
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879