Offensive Line (educational)

WHODATINCA · 12-16-2013, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Same logic, the defense resets the LoS 1-2 yards in the back field instead of us resetting it 1-2 yards on their side.

That exactly is what I am seeing. And while I appreciate your post very much ( and certainly learned some things ), it is hard for me to believe that the phenomenon you reference here is entirely the center's fault.

I think our entire O-line needs work. Offensively, everything really starts with the O-line. And, the way back-up and rookie QBs are playing this year -- kinda makes you wonder if O-line and skill positions' importance shouldn't be quite so over-shadowed, by the QB, from a financial perspective. Ya know what I mean?

TheOak · 12-16-2013, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by WHODATINCA

That exactly is what I am seeing. And while I appreciate your post very much ( and certainly learned some things ), it is hard for me to believe that the phenomenon you reference here is entirely the center's fault.

I think our entire O-line needs work. Offensively, everything really starts with the O-line. And, the way back-up and rookie QBs are playing this year -- kinda makes you wonder if O-line and skill positions' importance shouldn't be quite so over-shadowed, by the QB, from a financial perspective. Ya know what I mean?

Yes and no..... Most fans watch the ball and are relatively clueless as to who misses some blocks in the running game.

Familiar with a "trap block"?

For the sake of this discussion both sides are the same as in Right side o-line is over Right side d-line.

Right Side DT crushes TB...... 98% of fans blame RT.

The trap block means it was actually the LGs responsibility to block the RDT. Notice the black line crossing in front of the Center.

With me so far? Yes you are.

Now....... The complicated nuances of the offensive line. The Center comes off the ball and gets jammed at the line.

When the LG pulls it's fast.... Very fast. Ball snapped, pivot right explode fast. He has to get to that RDT before that RB hits the hole.

But chit... He pivoted ad exploded into the side of the Center because he didn't get out if the way, never made it to the RDT, and the RB was crushed at the line of scrimmage.

Right tackle gets blamed or Right guard gets blamed
The Left Guard missed the block
It was all the Centers fault.

If you are with me to this point you'll understand some of my past comments about the offensive line being more about how the group plays together than how good each of them are individually. It's synchronized swimming with 1600 pounds of beast. It's the 100 empty coke cans that hold up the man because they all pull their weight evenly.

WHODATINCA · 12-17-2013, 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Yes and no..... Most fans watch the ball and are relatively clueless as to who misses some blocks in the running game.

Familiar with a "trap block"?

For the sake of this discussion both sides are the same as in Right side o-line is over Right side d-line.

Right Side DT crushes TB...... 98% of fans blame RT.

The trap block means it was actually the LGs responsibility to block the RDT. Notice the black line crossing in front of the Center.

With me so far? Yes you are.

Now....... The complicated nuances of the offensive line. The Center comes off the ball and gets jammed at the line.

When the LG pulls it's fast.... Very fast. Ball snapped, pivot right explode fast. He has to get to that RDT before that RB hits the hole.

But chit... He pivoted ad exploded into the side of the Center because he didn't get out if the way, never made it to the RDT, and the RB was crushed at the line of scrimmage.

Right tackle gets blamed or Right guard gets blamed
The Left Guard missed the block
It was all the Centers fault.

If you are with me to this point you'll understand some of my past comments about the offensive line being more about how the group plays together than how good each of them are individually. It's synchronized swimming with 1600 pounds of beast. It's the 100 empty coke cans that hold up the man because they all pull their weight evenly.

I'm with you. That was really helpful and instructive, Oak. I see your point. Thank you.

===========================================

Not sure if you saw this question: "Drew Brees average time to sack 3.63s only 2 QBS have shorter times Brady and Manning"

Yep. That does blow my mind. Where did you get that from? What this suggests is that with a great QB, you don't have to have an amazing O-line. Is that what this stat suggests?

MaggieMayTB · 12-16-2013, 01:42 PM

Your knowledge is beyond genius.

I am holding my breathe and stepping way from the gut punch from this weekend and The Oak, inspired me to relook at the path I started to descend because of a comment I heard on Sirus NFL about watching film.

The Oak, please accept my respect and acknowledgement of the strongest tree in the forest. My personal motto is "Age quod agis".

I have digested Pat Kerwin's book, Take Your Eye Off the Ball: How to Watch Football by Knowing Where to Look (2010). It is now my dog-eared football bible, pencil notes in the margin and water damage from relaxing in the bathtub.

I think this acquired knowledge resulted in a different NFL experience this weekend in St. Louis. I don't like how I felt walking out of Edward Jones after the game last night. I had the luxury to choose my sight lines versus being fed by Fox Sports.

I am considering NFL Rewind to dissect games.

How do you do it? Your contributions compliment / enhance what Kirwan gave me on paper.

Rugby Saint II · 12-16-2013, 01:45 PM

This makes for quite the conundrum. I wanted to draft defense again. But that is looking less and less like a priority. dlp has not impressed in a long time. Let's not forget that we have Armstead waiting in the wings.

saintsfan403 · 12-16-2013, 02:05 PM

How many snaps has Armstead taken this season? I'm just wondering if there is any film on him.
But yes, great point. We need an upgrade at center in a bad way, and because were not the Dallas cowbys, we can get one somewhere after the first round and hopefully get another piece to compliment Jordan/Gallette

TheOak · 12-16-2013, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by saintsfan403

How many snaps has Armstead taken this season? I'm just wondering if there is any film on him.

But yes, great point. We need an upgrade at center in a bad way, and because were not the Dallas cowbys, we can get one somewhere after the first round and hopefully get another piece to compliment Jordan/Gallette

Everything I can find says he played Special teams against NE... Nothing else.

That said, if Lolito is dressing out we wouldn't carry another lineman. Strief was out against NE wasn't he?

saintsfan403 · 12-16-2013, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Everything I can find says he played Special teams against NE... Nothing else.

That said, if Lolito is dressing out we wouldn't carry another lineman. Strief was out against NE wasn't he?

Thanks for finding that...I believe Strief was out that game, I would have to check back though.
I'm wondering how the whole Armstead experiment is going. He has the athleticism to be a hulluva player....
Back to DLP, I remember during the Tampa game when Ingram got stuffed at the goal line, it was DLP getting blown up and knocked 3 yards back.

WhoDatFan26 · 12-16-2013, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by saintsfan403

Thanks for finding that...I believe Strief was out that game, I would have to check back though.
I'm wondering how the whole Armstead experiment is going. He has the athleticism to be a hulluva player....
Back to DLP, I remember during the Tampa game when Ingram got stuffed at the goal line, it was DLP getting blown up and knocked 3 yards back.

We may have our answer soon since Coach Payton is looking at changing the LT.

WhoDatFan26 · 12-16-2013, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

I see we do not have a lot of people that have played offensive line. Here is a little educational information that should help steer you on your mock-draft scenarios.

While Left Tackle is the most important offensive lineman for protecting the QB, there is more to the game than protecting the QB.. There is running, screens, etc... Teams starting investing high dollar in LTs when QBs because expensive.

You see, having a damn good Center takes a lot off of Drew Brees. How many delay of game penalties have we seen while Drew is making the lineman calls pre-snap?

Watch the whole video.
Is left tackle still the most important O-line position? - NFL Videos

Payton Maiining's left hand was Jeff Saturday.

Read the Roles section and think about how many LBs shoot our inside gap and get to Drew. Never picked up.
Center (American and Canadian football) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While LT is the most important player for protecting the QBs blind side, he gets his blocking assignment from the Center... If the Center makes the wrong call, the LT is worthless.

Yes, Charles Brown is a liability but if i am drafting on draft day and not drafting BPA, I am grabbing the best Center on the board in the first round. He will make for a better Saints o-line and allow Drew to focus where he needs to.

Where do QBs go when the pocket is collapsing around them.. They step up... Cant do that when the Center is being pushed back in your face.

I agree and this is why I stated in a post about three weeks ago, that the line began to deteriorate with loss of Goodwin to the 49ers and the failed signing of Kruetz. With Kruetz we were counting on him playing at a high level to match what we were getting in Goodwin.

12-16-2013, 04:55 PM	#1
WHODATINCA Site Donor Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: South Bay Posts: 3,784	Re: Offensive Line (educational) Originally Posted by TheOak Same logic, the defense resets the LoS 1-2 yards in the back field instead of us resetting it 1-2 yards on their side. That exactly is what I am seeing. And while I appreciate your post very much ( and certainly learned some things ), it is hard for me to believe that the phenomenon you reference here is entirely the center's fault. I think our entire O-line needs work. Offensively, everything really starts with the O-line. And, the way back-up and rookie QBs are playing this year -- kinda makes you wonder if O-line and skill positions' importance shouldn't be quite so over-shadowed, by the QB, from a financial perspective. Ya know what I mean?

12-16-2013, 05:49 PM	#2
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,055	Offensive Line (educational) Originally Posted by WHODATINCA That exactly is what I am seeing. And while I appreciate your post very much ( and certainly learned some things ), it is hard for me to believe that the phenomenon you reference here is entirely the center's fault. I think our entire O-line needs work. Offensively, everything really starts with the O-line. And, the way back-up and rookie QBs are playing this year -- kinda makes you wonder if O-line and skill positions' importance shouldn't be quite so over-shadowed, by the QB, from a financial perspective. Ya know what I mean? Yes and no..... Most fans watch the ball and are relatively clueless as to who misses some blocks in the running game. Familiar with a "trap block"? For the sake of this discussion both sides are the same as in Right side o-line is over Right side d-line. Right Side DT crushes TB...... 98% of fans blame RT. The trap block means it was actually the LGs responsibility to block the RDT. Notice the black line crossing in front of the Center. With me so far? Yes you are. Now....... The complicated nuances of the offensive line. The Center comes off the ball and gets jammed at the line. When the LG pulls it's fast.... Very fast. Ball snapped, pivot right explode fast. He has to get to that RDT before that RB hits the hole. But chit... He pivoted ad exploded into the side of the Center because he didn't get out if the way, never made it to the RDT, and the RB was crushed at the line of scrimmage. Right tackle gets blamed or Right guard gets blamed The Left Guard missed the block It was all the Centers fault. If you are with me to this point you'll understand some of my past comments about the offensive line being more about how the group plays together than how good each of them are individually. It's synchronized swimming with 1600 pounds of beast. It's the 100 empty coke cans that hold up the man because they all pull their weight evenly. Danno, Budsdrinker, MaggieMayTB and 2 others like this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau Last edited by TheOak; 12-16-2013 at 05:57 PM..

12-17-2013, 01:59 AM	#3
WHODATINCA Site Donor Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: South Bay Posts: 3,784	Re: Offensive Line (educational) Originally Posted by TheOak Yes and no..... Most fans watch the ball and are relatively clueless as to who misses some blocks in the running game. Familiar with a "trap block"? For the sake of this discussion both sides are the same as in Right side o-line is over Right side d-line. Right Side DT crushes TB...... 98% of fans blame RT. The trap block means it was actually the LGs responsibility to block the RDT. Notice the black line crossing in front of the Center. With me so far? Yes you are. Now....... The complicated nuances of the offensive line. The Center comes off the ball and gets jammed at the line. When the LG pulls it's fast.... Very fast. Ball snapped, pivot right explode fast. He has to get to that RDT before that RB hits the hole. But chit... He pivoted ad exploded into the side of the Center because he didn't get out if the way, never made it to the RDT, and the RB was crushed at the line of scrimmage. Right tackle gets blamed or Right guard gets blamed The Left Guard missed the block It was all the Centers fault. If you are with me to this point you'll understand some of my past comments about the offensive line being more about how the group plays together than how good each of them are individually. It's synchronized swimming with 1600 pounds of beast. It's the 100 empty coke cans that hold up the man because they all pull their weight evenly. I'm with you. That was really helpful and instructive, Oak. I see your point. Thank you. =========================================== Not sure if you saw this question: "Drew Brees average time to sack 3.63s only 2 QBS have shorter times Brady and Manning" Yep. That does blow my mind. Where did you get that from? What this suggests is that with a great QB, you don't have to have an amazing O-line. Is that what this stat suggests?

12-16-2013, 01:42 PM	#4
MaggieMayTB Site Donor Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Franklin, Wisconsin (knee deep in melted cheese sauce) Posts: 615 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Offensive Line (educational) Your knowledge is beyond genius. I am holding my breathe and stepping way from the gut punch from this weekend and The Oak, inspired me to relook at the path I started to descend because of a comment I heard on Sirus NFL about watching film. The Oak, please accept my respect and acknowledgement of the strongest tree in the forest. My personal motto is "Age quod agis". I have digested Pat Kerwin's book, Take Your Eye Off the Ball: How to Watch Football by Knowing Where to Look (2010). It is now my dog-eared football bible, pencil notes in the margin and water damage from relaxing in the bathtub. I think this acquired knowledge resulted in a different NFL experience this weekend in St. Louis. I don't like how I felt walking out of Edward Jones after the game last night. I had the luxury to choose my sight lines versus being fed by Fox Sports. I am considering NFL Rewind to dissect games. How do you do it? Your contributions compliment / enhance what Kirwan gave me on paper. Danno and hagan714 like this.
	Snap, placement, kick by Hartley, and it is — AND IT'S GOOD! IT'S GOOD! IT'S GUH-HUH-HOOD! Ha ha ha! Pigs have flown! Hell has frozen over! The Saints are on their way to the Super Bowl!

12-16-2013, 01:45 PM	#5
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,198	Re: Offensive Line (educational) This makes for quite the conundrum. I wanted to draft defense again. But that is looking less and less like a priority. dlp has not impressed in a long time. Let's not forget that we have Armstead waiting in the wings. WhoDat2301 likes this.

12-16-2013, 02:05 PM	#6
saintsfan403 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: WHO DAT NATION Posts: 2,261	Re: Offensive Line (educational) How many snaps has Armstead taken this season? I'm just wondering if there is any film on him. But yes, great point. We need an upgrade at center in a bad way, and because were not the Dallas cowbys, we can get one somewhere after the first round and hopefully get another piece to compliment Jordan/Gallette WhoDat2301 likes this.

12-16-2013, 02:56 PM	#7
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,055	Offensive Line (educational) Originally Posted by saintsfan403 How many snaps has Armstead taken this season? I'm just wondering if there is any film on him. But yes, great point. We need an upgrade at center in a bad way, and because were not the Dallas cowbys, we can get one somewhere after the first round and hopefully get another piece to compliment Jordan/Gallette Everything I can find says he played Special teams against NE... Nothing else. That said, if Lolito is dressing out we wouldn't carry another lineman. Strief was out against NE wasn't he?
	Last edited by TheOak; 12-16-2013 at 03:00 PM..

12-16-2013, 04:21 PM	#8
saintsfan403 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: WHO DAT NATION Posts: 2,261	Re: Offensive Line (educational) Originally Posted by TheOak Everything I can find says he played Special teams against NE... Nothing else. That said, if Lolito is dressing out we wouldn't carry another lineman. Strief was out against NE wasn't he? Thanks for finding that...I believe Strief was out that game, I would have to check back though. I'm wondering how the whole Armstead experiment is going. He has the athleticism to be a hulluva player.... Back to DLP, I remember during the Tampa game when Ingram got stuffed at the goal line, it was DLP getting blown up and knocked 3 yards back.

12-16-2013, 04:30 PM	#9
WhoDatFan26 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 365	Re: Offensive Line (educational) Originally Posted by saintsfan403 Thanks for finding that...I believe Strief was out that game, I would have to check back though. I'm wondering how the whole Armstead experiment is going. He has the athleticism to be a hulluva player.... Back to DLP, I remember during the Tampa game when Ingram got stuffed at the goal line, it was DLP getting blown up and knocked 3 yards back. We may have our answer soon since Coach Payton is looking at changing the LT.
WhoDatFan26 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 365

12-16-2013, 03:16 PM	#10
WhoDatFan26 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 365	Re: Offensive Line (educational) Originally Posted by TheOak I see we do not have a lot of people that have played offensive line. Here is a little educational information that should help steer you on your mock-draft scenarios. While Left Tackle is the most important offensive lineman for protecting the QB, there is more to the game than protecting the QB.. There is running, screens, etc... Teams starting investing high dollar in LTs when QBs because expensive. You see, having a damn good Center takes a lot off of Drew Brees. How many delay of game penalties have we seen while Drew is making the lineman calls pre-snap? Watch the whole video. Is left tackle still the most important O-line position? - NFL Videos Payton Maiining's left hand was Jeff Saturday. Read the Roles section and think about how many LBs shoot our inside gap and get to Drew. Never picked up. Center (American and Canadian football) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia While LT is the most important player for protecting the QBs blind side, he gets his blocking assignment from the Center... If the Center makes the wrong call, the LT is worthless. Yes, Charles Brown is a liability but if i am drafting on draft day and not drafting BPA, I am grabbing the best Center on the board in the first round. He will make for a better Saints o-line and allow Drew to focus where he needs to. Where do QBs go when the pocket is collapsing around them.. They step up... Cant do that when the Center is being pushed back in your face. I agree and this is why I stated in a post about three weeks ago, that the line began to deteriorate with loss of Goodwin to the 49ers and the failed signing of Kruetz. With Kruetz we were counting on him playing at a high level to match what we were getting in Goodwin.
WhoDatFan26 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 365

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