The Decline and Fall of Payton’s Empire, or How the Culture of Gregg Williams Ruined the Saints

hagan714 · 12-12-2014, 07:14 AM

I will always back Williams. look at the roster he had to work with. when the saints started the change over it was with players taken from other teams that were not really starters much less stars. we were a retirement home for solid lunch pail toting football players. the youth movement was just getting started after he was let go.

There in is the issue IMO. this defense does not have those solid lunch pail toting football players at its core any more. it all flash and dash.

To Spazs credit he drafted Hicks and White.
ILB David Hawthorne was suppose to be steal. ILB Curtis Lofton has been solid. OLB Chris Chamberlain was a flop. DT Brodrick Bunkley overpaid but has pretty much been ok.

Now lets talk Rob Ryan. If i am going with the theme of the piece i have to say the players like him but they do not buy into what he is selling 100%. Then with all the players moved out may have lost some respect points with the players also.

All I know for sure is this defense has been on the skids for over a year now and Rob can not stop it. It is turning into a huge snow ball that in the end will eat him up alive unless he makes some adjustments. Blaming the players and flipping the roster will not change a thing.

There is you decline in the saints origination. For the most part SP is not to blame. The offense is getting burned out trying to put up points to keep up instead of putting up points to bury other teams.

Like Williams off the field or not he has yet to be replaced.

Besides remember one thing about bounty gate. the only thing that was ever proven was the saints stink at replying to emails. the rest was all about Roger and the control he has on the national media to save face no matter how bad the nfl gets it wrong.

Euphoria · 12-12-2014, 08:12 AM

I have to agree with some of it but some of it is just crap. I don't think people give much credit to Sharper as they should for that D. Turnovers is what did it for that D that year and he pretty much was the leader and if I recall lead the team with INT's and pick 6.

This D has no leaders to make the players around them better. Until they find that leader welcome to the cellar.

blackangold · 12-12-2014, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Euphoria

I have to agree with some of it but some of it is just crap. I don't think people give much credit to Sharper as they should for that D. Turnovers is what did it for that D that year and he pretty much was the leader and if I recall lead the team with INT's and pick 6.

This D has no leaders to make the players around them better. Until they find that leader welcome to the cellar.

Sharper was good but he was hurt in 2010 when we had the 4th rated D. Williams also had to deal with Vilma being hurt that year and still had the 4th rated D. Williams is still my favorite DC as of late, the bounty thing was overblown but the key to Williams was his ability to hype people up and make them aggressive. He took a bunch of average players and made them into a pack of angry dogs. Williams' defense worked even though they struggled at times it was consistent.

SaintsBro · 12-12-2014, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by blackangold

Williams' defense worked even though they struggled at times it was consistent.

Exactly. You could feel reasonably comfortable, and get excited when they would line up on 3rd down, that something good would happen!

Gregg Williams defenses had this thing where, stuff that looked EASY for the other team's offense in the first half, wouldn't be as easy for them in the 2nd. You could see them clamping down and taking stuff away from the offense as the game wore on. Now? It's no different as the game progresses, in fact it's actually WORSE in the 4th than in the 1st quarter.

And you could also SEE the effect they had on opposing QB's, with your own two eyes -- they'd get guys rattled or unhappy or where you could tell the QB was just not wanting to be out there, he wanted to be anyplace else but on the field right then. The Saints defense would always give up that ONE big horrible running play, early in the game, 50, 60, 70 yards, usually for a TD....and 99 times out of 100, with the Gregg Williams D we'd be like, "okay, they got that one, but that's NOT gonna happen again!" and it WOULDN'T. Nowadays the big plays for the other team just keep on coming and coming.

saintsfan1976 · 12-12-2014, 12:04 PM

Not so fast.

I seem to remember Williams's defense being sort of a one trick pony.

They couldn't stop Hasselbeck or Lynch in the playoffs - 41pts
They couldn't stop Alex Smith or Davis in the playoffs - 36pts

The blitz became predictable and ineffective after the 2010 Superbowl.

Danno · 12-12-2014, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

Not so fast.

I seem to remember Williams's defense being sort of a one trick pony.

They couldn't stop Hasselbeck or Lynch in the playoffs - 41pts
They couldn't stop Alex Smith or Davis in the playoffs - 36pts

The blitz became predictable and ineffective after the 2010 Superbowl.

While true, the offense turned the ball over 5 times in the San Fran game. There isn't a defense in NFL history that can overcome that.

saintsfan1976 · 12-14-2014, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

While true, the offense turned the ball over 5 times in the San Fran game. There isn't a defense in NFL history that can overcome that.

True dat.

FinSaint · 12-12-2014, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

Not so fast.

I seem to remember Williams's defense being sort of a one trick pony.

Exactly. Watching that defense play was almost as bad at times as it is watching this current one.

While I'll forever be grateful to GW for being part of that SB winning team - I wouldn't want him back.

I still wish they would've gone with Romeo Crennel instead of RR, but I had to admit after last season that they made a good call - now it seems that it might've just been a fluke. I feel like Crennel would've been far superior long-term in creating a good complimentary defensive unit for SP's offense.

But then again, I was over the moon when they hired Spags to replace GW.

hagan714 · 12-13-2014, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

Not so fast.

I seem to remember Williams's defense being sort of a one trick pony.

They couldn't stop Hasselbeck or Lynch in the playoffs - 41pts

That came down to one one play and Williams had the right the defense called. just count up the players that missed the tackles. more than enough fire power in the right spot at the right time. that is when you blame the players and credit the Beast.

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

They couldn't stop Alex Smith or Davis in the playoffs - 36pts

The Davis play i do put on Williams. Wrong CB and poor safety support. But that is why we drafted speedy Robinson. But earlier in the game he gave up a TD because he got lost in the second level as WR went into motion then reversed field and motion back to his original side. more than once Robinson made a few bone head moves like that. so not putting him on Davis at that point in the game i can understand. excellent play call by the niners and great play by Smith on seeing that match up and keeping the safety frozen.

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

The blitz became predictable and ineffective after the 2010 Superbowl.

look at the players we lost after the super bowl too. notice i did not go into his draft record at all? he did ok but he never could replace or upgrade that group.

I am still amazed that they were so good together. That is when the youth movement started up a bit for the defense so in many ways you were starting from scratch.

call it a fluke or whatever those defensive players the saints got together back in the beginning may not have been super stars or shut down types but they functioned well as a unit and had chemistry.

that is the point of this piece. he got more out of what he had to work with than any DC since. No way that unit should have gotten us to the super bowl. They did just enough. Believe me it was not all talent. It was all guts and smarts

saintsfan1976 · 12-14-2014, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by hagan714

That came down to one one play and Williams had the right the defense called. just count up the players that missed the tackles. more than enough fire power in the right spot at the right time. that is when you blame the players and credit the Beast.

The Davis play i do put on Williams. Wrong CB and poor safety support. But that is why we drafted speedy Robinson. But earlier in the game he gave up a TD because he got lost in the second level as WR went into motion then reversed field and motion back to his original side. more than once Robinson made a few bone head moves like that. so not putting him on Davis at that point in the game i can understand. excellent play call by the niners and great play by Smith on seeing that match up and keeping the safety frozen.

look at the players we lost after the super bowl too. notice i did not go into his draft record at all? he did ok but he never could replace or upgrade that group.

I am still amazed that they were so good together. That is when the youth movement started up a bit for the defense so in many ways you were starting from scratch.

call it a fluke or whatever those defensive players the saints got together back in the beginning may not have been super stars or shut down types but they functioned well as a unit and had chemistry.

that is the point of this piece. he got more out of what he had to work with than any DC since. No way that unit should have gotten us to the super bowl. They did just enough. Believe me it was not all talent. It was all guts and smarts

Hasselbeck threw for 300yds and 4 tds. That's plain awful.

There wasn't a "Davis play" - he was open all day long.

Agree that he "did more with less" and that's a far cry from what RR has done with more.

12-12-2014, 07:14 AM	#1
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: The Decline and Fall of Payton’s Empire, or How the Culture of Gregg Williams Ruined the Saints I will always back Williams. look at the roster he had to work with. when the saints started the change over it was with players taken from other teams that were not really starters much less stars. we were a retirement home for solid lunch pail toting football players. the youth movement was just getting started after he was let go. There in is the issue IMO. this defense does not have those solid lunch pail toting football players at its core any more. it all flash and dash. To Spazs credit he drafted Hicks and White. ILB David Hawthorne was suppose to be steal. ILB Curtis Lofton has been solid. OLB Chris Chamberlain was a flop. DT Brodrick Bunkley overpaid but has pretty much been ok. Now lets talk Rob Ryan. If i am going with the theme of the piece i have to say the players like him but they do not buy into what he is selling 100%. Then with all the players moved out may have lost some respect points with the players also. All I know for sure is this defense has been on the skids for over a year now and Rob can not stop it. It is turning into a huge snow ball that in the end will eat him up alive unless he makes some adjustments. Blaming the players and flipping the roster will not change a thing. There is you decline in the saints origination. For the most part SP is not to blame. The offense is getting burned out trying to put up points to keep up instead of putting up points to bury other teams. Like Williams off the field or not he has yet to be replaced. Besides remember one thing about bounty gate. the only thing that was ever proven was the saints stink at replying to emails. the rest was all about Roger and the control he has on the national media to save face no matter how bad the nfl gets it wrong. RailBoss, saintsfan1976, AlaskaSaints and 1 others like this.
	"We may have lost the game, but you'll be hurting tomorrow." Doug Atkins

12-12-2014, 08:12 AM	#2
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: The Decline and Fall of Payton’s Empire, or How the Culture of Gregg Williams Ruined the Saints I have to agree with some of it but some of it is just crap. I don't think people give much credit to Sharper as they should for that D. Turnovers is what did it for that D that year and he pretty much was the leader and if I recall lead the team with INT's and pick 6. This D has no leaders to make the players around them better. Until they find that leader welcome to the cellar. hagan714, halloween 65 and MarchingOn like this.

12-12-2014, 10:52 AM	#3
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Re: The Decline and Fall of Payton’s Empire, or How the Culture of Gregg Williams Ruined the Saints Originally Posted by Euphoria I have to agree with some of it but some of it is just crap. I don't think people give much credit to Sharper as they should for that D. Turnovers is what did it for that D that year and he pretty much was the leader and if I recall lead the team with INT's and pick 6. This D has no leaders to make the players around them better. Until they find that leader welcome to the cellar. Sharper was good but he was hurt in 2010 when we had the 4th rated D. Williams also had to deal with Vilma being hurt that year and still had the 4th rated D. Williams is still my favorite DC as of late, the bounty thing was overblown but the key to Williams was his ability to hype people up and make them aggressive. He took a bunch of average players and made them into a pack of angry dogs. Williams' defense worked even though they struggled at times it was consistent. hagan714 and MarchingOn like this.

12-12-2014, 11:06 AM	#4
SaintsBro Site Donor Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: in line with my ridiculous CLEAR PLASTIC BAG Posts: 3,650 Blog Entries: 3	Re: The Decline and Fall of Payton’s Empire, or How the Culture of Gregg Williams Ruined the Saints Originally Posted by blackangold Williams' defense worked even though they struggled at times it was consistent. Exactly. You could feel reasonably comfortable, and get excited when they would line up on 3rd down, that something good would happen! Gregg Williams defenses had this thing where, stuff that looked EASY for the other team's offense in the first half, wouldn't be as easy for them in the 2nd. You could see them clamping down and taking stuff away from the offense as the game wore on. Now? It's no different as the game progresses, in fact it's actually WORSE in the 4th than in the 1st quarter. And you could also SEE the effect they had on opposing QB's, with your own two eyes -- they'd get guys rattled or unhappy or where you could tell the QB was just not wanting to be out there, he wanted to be anyplace else but on the field right then. The Saints defense would always give up that ONE big horrible running play, early in the game, 50, 60, 70 yards, usually for a TD....and 99 times out of 100, with the Gregg Williams D we'd be like, "okay, they got that one, but that's NOT gonna happen again!" and it WOULDN'T. Nowadays the big plays for the other team just keep on coming and coming. hagan714, MarchingOn and VegasSaint9 like this.

12-12-2014, 12:04 PM	#5
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,992 Blog Entries: 3	Re: The Decline and Fall of Payton’s Empire, or How the Culture of Gregg Williams Ruined the Saints Not so fast. I seem to remember Williams's defense being sort of a one trick pony. They couldn't stop Hasselbeck or Lynch in the playoffs - 41pts They couldn't stop Alex Smith or Davis in the playoffs - 36pts The blitz became predictable and ineffective after the 2010 Superbowl. Danno, hagan714, jlouhill and 2 others like this.

12-12-2014, 05:38 PM	#6
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,751	Re: The Decline and Fall of Payton’s Empire, or How the Culture of Gregg Williams Ruined the Saints Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 Not so fast. I seem to remember Williams's defense being sort of a one trick pony. They couldn't stop Hasselbeck or Lynch in the playoffs - 41pts They couldn't stop Alex Smith or Davis in the playoffs - 36pts The blitz became predictable and ineffective after the 2010 Superbowl. While true, the offense turned the ball over 5 times in the San Fran game. There isn't a defense in NFL history that can overcome that. UK_WhoDat, hagan714, saintsfan1976 and 2 others like this.

12-14-2014, 08:44 AM	#7
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,992 Blog Entries: 3	Re: The Decline and Fall of Payton’s Empire, or How the Culture of Gregg Williams Ruined the Saints Originally Posted by Danno While true, the offense turned the ball over 5 times in the San Fran game. There isn't a defense in NFL history that can overcome that. True dat.

12-12-2014, 07:19 PM	#8
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,963	Re: The Decline and Fall of Payton’s Empire, or How the Culture of Gregg Williams Ruined the Saints Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 Not so fast. I seem to remember Williams's defense being sort of a one trick pony. Exactly. Watching that defense play was almost as bad at times as it is watching this current one. While I'll forever be grateful to GW for being part of that SB winning team - I wouldn't want him back. I still wish they would've gone with Romeo Crennel instead of RR, but I had to admit after last season that they made a good call - now it seems that it might've just been a fluke. I feel like Crennel would've been far superior long-term in creating a good complimentary defensive unit for SP's offense. But then again, I was over the moon when they hired Spags to replace GW.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

12-13-2014, 12:22 AM	#9
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: The Decline and Fall of Payton’s Empire, or How the Culture of Gregg Williams Ruined the Saints Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 Not so fast. I seem to remember Williams's defense being sort of a one trick pony. They couldn't stop Hasselbeck or Lynch in the playoffs - 41pts That came down to one one play and Williams had the right the defense called. just count up the players that missed the tackles. more than enough fire power in the right spot at the right time. that is when you blame the players and credit the Beast. Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 They couldn't stop Alex Smith or Davis in the playoffs - 36pts The Davis play i do put on Williams. Wrong CB and poor safety support. But that is why we drafted speedy Robinson. But earlier in the game he gave up a TD because he got lost in the second level as WR went into motion then reversed field and motion back to his original side. more than once Robinson made a few bone head moves like that. so not putting him on Davis at that point in the game i can understand. excellent play call by the niners and great play by Smith on seeing that match up and keeping the safety frozen. Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 The blitz became predictable and ineffective after the 2010 Superbowl. look at the players we lost after the super bowl too. notice i did not go into his draft record at all? he did ok but he never could replace or upgrade that group. I am still amazed that they were so good together. That is when the youth movement started up a bit for the defense so in many ways you were starting from scratch. call it a fluke or whatever those defensive players the saints got together back in the beginning may not have been super stars or shut down types but they functioned well as a unit and had chemistry. that is the point of this piece. he got more out of what he had to work with than any DC since. No way that unit should have gotten us to the super bowl. They did just enough. Believe me it was not all talent. It was all guts and smarts saintsfan1976 likes this.
	"We may have lost the game, but you'll be hurting tomorrow." Doug Atkins Last edited by hagan714; 12-13-2014 at 12:25 AM..

12-14-2014, 08:42 AM	#10
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,992 Blog Entries: 3	Re: The Decline and Fall of Payton’s Empire, or How the Culture of Gregg Williams Ruined the Saints Originally Posted by hagan714 That came down to one one play and Williams had the right the defense called. just count up the players that missed the tackles. more than enough fire power in the right spot at the right time. that is when you blame the players and credit the Beast. The Davis play i do put on Williams. Wrong CB and poor safety support. But that is why we drafted speedy Robinson. But earlier in the game he gave up a TD because he got lost in the second level as WR went into motion then reversed field and motion back to his original side. more than once Robinson made a few bone head moves like that. so not putting him on Davis at that point in the game i can understand. excellent play call by the niners and great play by Smith on seeing that match up and keeping the safety frozen. look at the players we lost after the super bowl too. notice i did not go into his draft record at all? he did ok but he never could replace or upgrade that group. I am still amazed that they were so good together. That is when the youth movement started up a bit for the defense so in many ways you were starting from scratch. call it a fluke or whatever those defensive players the saints got together back in the beginning may not have been super stars or shut down types but they functioned well as a unit and had chemistry. that is the point of this piece. he got more out of what he had to work with than any DC since. No way that unit should have gotten us to the super bowl. They did just enough. Believe me it was not all talent. It was all guts and smarts Hasselbeck threw for 300yds and 4 tds. That's plain awful. There wasn't a "Davis play" - he was open all day long. Agree that he "did more with less" and that's a far cry from what RR has done with more.

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