A win-win contract extension would make sense for Saints, Drew Brees

Jack Vegas · 01-03-2015, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Completely Disagree.

A few points.

First, Nicks was an All-Pro Guard who had not missed a game as a Saint; so as one of the two best guards in the league he is the top of the food chain so he was going to get a max contract...

Second, Nicks was an unrestricted free agent at the same time Brees was; Brees Camp made it clear he was seeking a max contract - so something had to give

Source: Report: Carl Nicks “expected to leave” New Orleans in free agency | ProFootballTalk

Third, Loomis' failed logic then went out and signed Grubbs, who has grossely underwhelmed, at the number he sought to sign Nicks probably thinking he wouldn't affect the level of that unit and still get his numbers he wanted - fail.

Source: New Orleans Saints replace Carl Nicks with OG Ben Grubbs - ESPN

Concession: the Nicks signing was a completely bust for the Bucs as Nicks contracted a staph infection while there which the Bucs ended up agreeing to a settlement - but that's on the Bucs for not maintaining a healthy environment for the invested athletes they've got under contract.

Source: Third Tampa Bay Buccaneers player tests positive for MRSA staph infection - ESPN

So to say that Brees contract has nothing to do with the decline in the roster quality, whether maintaining an elite unit or being able to improve it is naive, even foolhardy...

You are neglecting to mention that Nicks already had the bad foot before he even left. He got the MSRA as result a foot surgery, which was needed because he had a history of chronic injury history there. That was no secret. There were also rumors that he was not the best guy in the locker room even then - not totally farfetched considering we got him in the fourth round of the draft on similar concerns.

You are also neglecting to mention that we had plenty of space to sign Nicks if we had wanted to. Loomis/Payton/whoever makes these decisions decided he wasn't worth what he was demanding. You are also neglecting to mention that Brees cap hit in 2012 was only 10.4 million, and you are also neglecting to mention that the Saints had well more than the $3 million cap space that would have been needed to re-sign Nicks instead of going out and getting Grubbs. And in that scenario, you would kiss any chance of getting Curtis Lofton goodbye. IIRC we also had to sign Colston that year and an extension for Greer.

You can call that a mistake if you want but it has nothing whatsoever to do with being handcuffed by Brees salary. Those are personnel decisions, plain and simple. Blaming Brees contract for the offensive line's decline in performance 3 years later is just flat out simplistic thinking and quite frankly, kind of retarded.

I am kind of disgusted by people calling out Brees for being selfish. He has done more for the Saints and the town than any other player and perhaps any other person in franchise history. He deserves every penny he has gotten and more. Going after him for being selfish is just childish and shows a severe lack of brainpower, for all the reasons I have pointed out in this thread and many more which I'm sure we are not privy to because we are not in the front office and locker room every day.

I need to step away from this board for a while because people are just getting absolutely ridiculous with all this crap. I'm embarrassed for some of you, I really am.

halloween 65 · 01-03-2015, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by 44Champs

Sounds good but can we do that without restructuring brees's contract? That's the $100 millon question.

I really figure we are going to have to do this in the draft where their rookie contracts are much cheaper. Our Tackles are good enough although Strief is getting up there in age but Armstead is good to go. We could go after 2 gaurds and go with Lelito between 2 young studs or keep Grubbs and go with a 1 stud C and 1 stud G in the draft. I love Evans but I do feel he's done. There are a few ways to build this line to be strong like we are use to seeing but it might get done in a year but with Grubbs contract being up next year I figure 2 years to be honest. It's a possibility Grubbs takes a paycut but he has played well so there is no gaurrantee he would. We do need at least 2 O-lineman drafted this year. Why the he!! Loomis and Payton have neglected drafting for the O-line I will never know. Brees contract doen't bother me as much as the Graham contract, we could be sitting good on the O-line with his money going into it and he is injury prone to boot. I think it was a terrible contract to begin with.

ScottF · 01-03-2015, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas

I need to step away from this board for a while because people are just getting absolutely ridiculous with all this crap. I'm embarrassed for some of you, I really am.

Don't feel embarrassed for me.
You have used the words "half-witted", "stupid, "retarded", and "simple" in your posts, and suggested I use my common sense.

You should step away and look up the words "decorum", "appropriate" and "etiquette".

Jack Vegas · 01-03-2015, 11:37 PM

I call 'em like I see 'em. Deal with it. Or keep *****ing and moaning about Brees contract like a 12-year-old girl on her first bout of PMS. Makes no difference to me, but you're only making yourself look simple-minded.

jeanpierre · 01-04-2015, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas

You are neglecting to mention that Nicks already had the bad foot before he even left. He got the MSRA as result a foot surgery, which was needed because he had a history of chronic injury history there. That was no secret. There were also rumors that he was not the best guy in the locker room even then - not totally farfetched considering we got him in the fourth round of the draft on similar concerns.

That's totally wrong, why would Tampa have agreed to an injury settlement regarding the MRSA and injury?!?

Read post and sources.

And in so far as rumors, cite sources. Because what I've read, that's totally wrong.

Source: Saints to face former teammate Carl Nicks - FOX 8 WVUE New Orleans News, Weather, Sports, Social

Now Nicks had a bad rap out of college and that's why he fell to the fifth, but he got right with the Saints.

Source: Wikipedia - Carl Nicks

lee909 · 01-04-2015, 12:13 AM

Its 2012 you have just broke one of the longest standing records in the NFL on one of tge best offenses the league has seen. Not to meantion winning a superbowl three years before. Your agent has just got Peyton Manning who has never threw for more yards and has the same number of rings and is coming of a injury that meant he could easily never play again a $19.2ml a year deal. Who wouldn't expect the biggest deal in league history?.

Jack Vegas · 01-04-2015, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

That's totally wrong, why would Tampa have agreed to an injury settlement regarding the MRSA and injury?!?

Read post and sources.

And in so far as rumors, cite sources. Because what I've read, that's totally wrong.

Source: Saints to face former teammate Carl Nicks - FOX 8 WVUE New Orleans News, Weather, Sports, Social

Now Nicks had a bad rap out of college and that's why he fell to the fifth, but he got right with the Saints.

Source: Wikipedia - Carl Nicks

You may be completely right about the foot injury and I may be completely wrong and misremembering things. I was sure he had a history of turf toe.

The point is, regardless, that it's reasonable to assume Nicks had some red flags at the time that made Loomis hesitant to give him the huge contract. With Brees' cap hit that year only being 10.4 million it would've been a cake walk for Loomis to give Nicks a front-loaded contract worth big dollars, but he decided not to.

We can speculate why not until the world ends, but we had plenty of cap space at the time so you can't blame it on Brees and his "selfish contract" no matter how you slice it.

jeanpierre · 01-04-2015, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by Jack Vegas

You are neglecting to mention that Nicks already had the bad foot before he even left. He got the MSRA as result a foot surgery, which was needed because he had a history of chronic injury history there. That was no secret. There were also rumors that he was not the best guy in the locker room even then - not totally farfetched considering we got him in the fourth round of the draft on similar concerns.

You are also neglecting to mention that we had plenty of space to sign Nicks if we had wanted to. Loomis/Payton/whoever makes these decisions decided he wasn't worth what he was demanding. You are also neglecting to mention that Brees cap hit in 2012 was only 10.4 million, and you are also neglecting to mention that the Saints had well more than the $3 million cap space that would have been needed to re-sign Nicks instead of going out and getting Grubbs. And in that scenario, you would kiss any chance of getting Curtis Lofton goodbye. IIRC we also had to sign Colston that year and an extension for Greer.

You can call that a mistake if you want but it has nothing whatsoever to do with being handcuffed by Brees salary. Those are personnel decisions, plain and simple. Blaming Brees contract for the offensive line's decline in performance 3 years later is just flat out simplistic thinking and quite frankly, kind of retarded.

I am kind of disgusted by people calling out Brees for being selfish. He has done more for the Saints and the town than any other player and perhaps any other person in franchise history. He deserves every penny he has gotten and more. Going after him for being selfish is just childish and shows a severe lack of brainpower, for all the reasons I have pointed out in this thread and many more which I'm sure we are not privy to because we are not in the front office and locker room every day.

I need to step away from this board for a while because people are just getting absolutely ridiculous with all this crap. I'm embarrassed for some of you, I really am.

Well is so far as the comments of "retarded", "severe lack of brainpower" that's pretty funny considering you are unable to substantiate or produce one link to corroborate your arguments, especially those rumors you alleged...

Before you start trying to personalize and insult which usually hasn't been characteristic of your posts, you may want to pause and look at the thread...

In so much as blaming Brees, it's naive to say his salary and the percentage of the salary cap it consumes has no bearing on other personnel decisions...

No one has questioned his contributions to the Saints success and it's impact on the city's morale - some simply question why a max deal that takes away from the team's ability to maintain or improve the roster which counteracts the very success Brees has been a part of building to this point...

And if he wanted to maximize his monetary gain, there are other revenue streams outside of the Salary/Salary Cap domain, namely Endorsements, that are even more lucrative (especially for SuperBowl Winning Quarterbacks)...

lee909 · 01-04-2015, 12:30 AM

The team could easily havr kept Nick with a back loaded deal or let Colston walk etc.

Jack Vegas · 01-04-2015, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Well is so far as the comments of "retarded", "severe lack of brainpower" that's pretty funny considering you are unable to substantiate or produce one link to corroborate your arguments, especially those rumors you alleged...

Before you start trying to personalize and insult, you may want to pause and look at the thread...

In so much as blaming Brees, it's naive to say his salary and the percentage of the salary cap it consumes has no bearing on other personnel decisions...

No one has questioned his contributions to the Saints success and it's impact on the city's morale - some simply question why a max deal that takes away from the team's ability to maintain or improve the roster which counteracts the very success Brees has been a part of building to this point...

And if he wanted to maximize his monetary gain, there are other revenue streams outside of the Salary/Salary Cap domain, namely Endorsements, that are even more lucrative (especially for SuperBowl Winning Quarterbacks)...

I will cop to being kind of an ******* in this thread, it's not the first time and it won't be the last.

But I stand by my points. Remember we were talking about the offensive line in an isolated sense here. I still point out that 3 of the biggest contracts on the team are offensive linemen. You can't look at that fact and then say we haven't devoted significant dollars to the offensive line.

You can certainly argue those dollars weren't spend as efficiently as you might hope, but that has nothing to do with Brees contact, it has to do with personnel decisions being made by SP, Loomis, scouts, etc. That is why I say blaming Brees' contract is simple-minded. There are far too many other variables to consider. Will Smith was overpaid and underproduced for years. Ditto for Harper and even guys like Colston and Moore to a smaller degree. I don't see anybody bringing that up, but it surely affected spending in other areas which brings us to the present day. I would certainly rather have Brees performing at an elite QB level for $20 million a year than I would watching fat lazy Will Smith get 5 sacks a year for $10 million or watching Harper trying to cover tight ends for $5 million, or Moore to be injury-prone for another $5 million. We got to watch Brees punch his Hall of Fame ticket for a market-level contract and only now after a kind of bad year can we consider him "overpaid." I'll take that trade-off over a lot of the alternatives.

Apologies to all for the unkind words, I been having a crap week. That doesn't mean I'm not right though.

01-03-2015, 11:11 PM	#51
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: A win-win contract extension would make sense for Saints, Drew Brees Originally Posted by jeanpierre Completely Disagree. A few points. First, Nicks was an All-Pro Guard who had not missed a game as a Saint; so as one of the two best guards in the league he is the top of the food chain so he was going to get a max contract... Second, Nicks was an unrestricted free agent at the same time Brees was; Brees Camp made it clear he was seeking a max contract - so something had to give Source: Report: Carl Nicks “expected to leave” New Orleans in free agency \| ProFootballTalk Third, Loomis' failed logic then went out and signed Grubbs, who has grossely underwhelmed, at the number he sought to sign Nicks probably thinking he wouldn't affect the level of that unit and still get his numbers he wanted - fail. Source: New Orleans Saints replace Carl Nicks with OG Ben Grubbs - ESPN Concession: the Nicks signing was a completely bust for the Bucs as Nicks contracted a staph infection while there which the Bucs ended up agreeing to a settlement - but that's on the Bucs for not maintaining a healthy environment for the invested athletes they've got under contract. Source: Third Tampa Bay Buccaneers player tests positive for MRSA staph infection - ESPN So to say that Brees contract has nothing to do with the decline in the roster quality, whether maintaining an elite unit or being able to improve it is naive, even foolhardy... You are neglecting to mention that Nicks already had the bad foot before he even left. He got the MSRA as result a foot surgery, which was needed because he had a history of chronic injury history there. That was no secret. There were also rumors that he was not the best guy in the locker room even then - not totally farfetched considering we got him in the fourth round of the draft on similar concerns. You are also neglecting to mention that we had plenty of space to sign Nicks if we had wanted to. Loomis/Payton/whoever makes these decisions decided he wasn't worth what he was demanding. You are also neglecting to mention that Brees cap hit in 2012 was only 10.4 million, and you are also neglecting to mention that the Saints had well more than the $3 million cap space that would have been needed to re-sign Nicks instead of going out and getting Grubbs. And in that scenario, you would kiss any chance of getting Curtis Lofton goodbye. IIRC we also had to sign Colston that year and an extension for Greer. You can call that a mistake if you want but it has nothing whatsoever to do with being handcuffed by Brees salary. Those are personnel decisions, plain and simple. Blaming Brees contract for the offensive line's decline in performance 3 years later is just flat out simplistic thinking and quite frankly, kind of retarded. I am kind of disgusted by people calling out Brees for being selfish. He has done more for the Saints and the town than any other player and perhaps any other person in franchise history. He deserves every penny he has gotten and more. Going after him for being selfish is just childish and shows a severe lack of brainpower, for all the reasons I have pointed out in this thread and many more which I'm sure we are not privy to because we are not in the front office and locker room every day. I need to step away from this board for a while because people are just getting absolutely ridiculous with all this crap. I'm embarrassed for some of you, I really am. brees84 likes this.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

01-03-2015, 11:14 PM	#52
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: A win-win contract extension would make sense for Saints, Drew Brees Originally Posted by 44Champs Sounds good but can we do that without restructuring brees's contract? That's the $100 millon question. I really figure we are going to have to do this in the draft where their rookie contracts are much cheaper. Our Tackles are good enough although Strief is getting up there in age but Armstead is good to go. We could go after 2 gaurds and go with Lelito between 2 young studs or keep Grubbs and go with a 1 stud C and 1 stud G in the draft. I love Evans but I do feel he's done. There are a few ways to build this line to be strong like we are use to seeing but it might get done in a year but with Grubbs contract being up next year I figure 2 years to be honest. It's a possibility Grubbs takes a paycut but he has played well so there is no gaurrantee he would. We do need at least 2 O-lineman drafted this year. Why the he!! Loomis and Payton have neglected drafting for the O-line I will never know. Brees contract doen't bother me as much as the Graham contract, we could be sitting good on the O-line with his money going into it and he is injury prone to boot. I think it was a terrible contract to begin with.

01-03-2015, 11:33 PM	#53
ScottF 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6,324	Re: A win-win contract extension would make sense for Saints, Drew Brees Originally Posted by Jack Vegas I need to step away from this board for a while because people are just getting absolutely ridiculous with all this crap. I'm embarrassed for some of you, I really am. Don't feel embarrassed for me. You have used the words "half-witted", "stupid, "retarded", and "simple" in your posts, and suggested I use my common sense. You should step away and look up the words "decorum", "appropriate" and "etiquette".

01-03-2015, 11:37 PM	#54
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: A win-win contract extension would make sense for Saints, Drew Brees I call 'em like I see 'em. Deal with it. Or keep *****ing and moaning about Brees contract like a 12-year-old girl on her first bout of PMS. Makes no difference to me, but you're only making yourself look simple-minded.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

01-04-2015, 12:09 AM	#55
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: A win-win contract extension would make sense for Saints, Drew Brees Originally Posted by Jack Vegas You are neglecting to mention that Nicks already had the bad foot before he even left. He got the MSRA as result a foot surgery, which was needed because he had a history of chronic injury history there. That was no secret. There were also rumors that he was not the best guy in the locker room even then - not totally farfetched considering we got him in the fourth round of the draft on similar concerns. That's totally wrong, why would Tampa have agreed to an injury settlement regarding the MRSA and injury?!? Read post and sources. And in so far as rumors, cite sources. Because what I've read, that's totally wrong. Source: Saints to face former teammate Carl Nicks - FOX 8 WVUE New Orleans News, Weather, Sports, Social Now Nicks had a bad rap out of college and that's why he fell to the fifth, but he got right with the Saints. Source: Wikipedia - Carl Nicks ScottF likes this.
	Last edited by jeanpierre; 01-04-2015 at 12:14 AM..

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01-04-2015, 12:13 AM	#56
lee909 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Watford England Posts: 8,809 Blog Entries: 1	Re: A win-win contract extension would make sense for Saints, Drew Brees Its 2012 you have just broke one of the longest standing records in the NFL on one of tge best offenses the league has seen. Not to meantion winning a superbowl three years before. Your agent has just got Peyton Manning who has never threw for more yards and has the same number of rings and is coming of a injury that meant he could easily never play again a $19.2ml a year deal. Who wouldn't expect the biggest deal in league history?.

01-04-2015, 12:28 AM	#57
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: A win-win contract extension would make sense for Saints, Drew Brees Originally Posted by jeanpierre That's totally wrong, why would Tampa have agreed to an injury settlement regarding the MRSA and injury?!? Read post and sources. And in so far as rumors, cite sources. Because what I've read, that's totally wrong. Source: Saints to face former teammate Carl Nicks - FOX 8 WVUE New Orleans News, Weather, Sports, Social Now Nicks had a bad rap out of college and that's why he fell to the fifth, but he got right with the Saints. Source: Wikipedia - Carl Nicks You may be completely right about the foot injury and I may be completely wrong and misremembering things. I was sure he had a history of turf toe. The point is, regardless, that it's reasonable to assume Nicks had some red flags at the time that made Loomis hesitant to give him the huge contract. With Brees' cap hit that year only being 10.4 million it would've been a cake walk for Loomis to give Nicks a front-loaded contract worth big dollars, but he decided not to. We can speculate why not until the world ends, but we had plenty of cap space at the time so you can't blame it on Brees and his "selfish contract" no matter how you slice it.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

01-04-2015, 12:29 AM	#58
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: A win-win contract extension would make sense for Saints, Drew Brees Originally Posted by Jack Vegas You are neglecting to mention that Nicks already had the bad foot before he even left. He got the MSRA as result a foot surgery, which was needed because he had a history of chronic injury history there. That was no secret. There were also rumors that he was not the best guy in the locker room even then - not totally farfetched considering we got him in the fourth round of the draft on similar concerns. You are also neglecting to mention that we had plenty of space to sign Nicks if we had wanted to. Loomis/Payton/whoever makes these decisions decided he wasn't worth what he was demanding. You are also neglecting to mention that Brees cap hit in 2012 was only 10.4 million, and you are also neglecting to mention that the Saints had well more than the $3 million cap space that would have been needed to re-sign Nicks instead of going out and getting Grubbs. And in that scenario, you would kiss any chance of getting Curtis Lofton goodbye. IIRC we also had to sign Colston that year and an extension for Greer. You can call that a mistake if you want but it has nothing whatsoever to do with being handcuffed by Brees salary. Those are personnel decisions, plain and simple. Blaming Brees contract for the offensive line's decline in performance 3 years later is just flat out simplistic thinking and quite frankly, kind of retarded. I am kind of disgusted by people calling out Brees for being selfish. He has done more for the Saints and the town than any other player and perhaps any other person in franchise history. He deserves every penny he has gotten and more. Going after him for being selfish is just childish and shows a severe lack of brainpower, for all the reasons I have pointed out in this thread and many more which I'm sure we are not privy to because we are not in the front office and locker room every day. I need to step away from this board for a while because people are just getting absolutely ridiculous with all this crap. I'm embarrassed for some of you, I really am. Well is so far as the comments of "retarded", "severe lack of brainpower" that's pretty funny considering you are unable to substantiate or produce one link to corroborate your arguments, especially those rumors you alleged... Before you start trying to personalize and insult which usually hasn't been characteristic of your posts, you may want to pause and look at the thread... In so much as blaming Brees, it's naive to say his salary and the percentage of the salary cap it consumes has no bearing on other personnel decisions... No one has questioned his contributions to the Saints success and it's impact on the city's morale - some simply question why a max deal that takes away from the team's ability to maintain or improve the roster which counteracts the very success Brees has been a part of building to this point... And if he wanted to maximize his monetary gain, there are other revenue streams outside of the Salary/Salary Cap domain, namely Endorsements, that are even more lucrative (especially for SuperBowl Winning Quarterbacks)... ScottF likes this.
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way... Last edited by jeanpierre; 01-04-2015 at 12:31 AM..

01-04-2015, 12:30 AM	#59
lee909 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Watford England Posts: 8,809 Blog Entries: 1	Re: A win-win contract extension would make sense for Saints, Drew Brees The team could easily havr kept Nick with a back loaded deal or let Colston walk etc.

01-04-2015, 12:33 AM	#60
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254	Re: A win-win contract extension would make sense for Saints, Drew Brees Originally Posted by jeanpierre Well is so far as the comments of "retarded", "severe lack of brainpower" that's pretty funny considering you are unable to substantiate or produce one link to corroborate your arguments, especially those rumors you alleged... Before you start trying to personalize and insult, you may want to pause and look at the thread... In so much as blaming Brees, it's naive to say his salary and the percentage of the salary cap it consumes has no bearing on other personnel decisions... No one has questioned his contributions to the Saints success and it's impact on the city's morale - some simply question why a max deal that takes away from the team's ability to maintain or improve the roster which counteracts the very success Brees has been a part of building to this point... And if he wanted to maximize his monetary gain, there are other revenue streams outside of the Salary/Salary Cap domain, namely Endorsements, that are even more lucrative (especially for SuperBowl Winning Quarterbacks)... I will cop to being kind of an ******* in this thread, it's not the first time and it won't be the last. But I stand by my points. Remember we were talking about the offensive line in an isolated sense here. I still point out that 3 of the biggest contracts on the team are offensive linemen. You can't look at that fact and then say we haven't devoted significant dollars to the offensive line. You can certainly argue those dollars weren't spend as efficiently as you might hope, but that has nothing to do with Brees contact, it has to do with personnel decisions being made by SP, Loomis, scouts, etc. That is why I say blaming Brees' contract is simple-minded. There are far too many other variables to consider. Will Smith was overpaid and underproduced for years. Ditto for Harper and even guys like Colston and Moore to a smaller degree. I don't see anybody bringing that up, but it surely affected spending in other areas which brings us to the present day. I would certainly rather have Brees performing at an elite QB level for $20 million a year than I would watching fat lazy Will Smith get 5 sacks a year for $10 million or watching Harper trying to cover tight ends for $5 million, or Moore to be injury-prone for another $5 million. We got to watch Brees punch his Hall of Fame ticket for a market-level contract and only now after a kind of bad year can we consider him "overpaid." I'll take that trade-off over a lot of the alternatives. Apologies to all for the unkind words, I been having a crap week. That doesn't mean I'm not right though.
Jack Vegas 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,254

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