another i cant hepp it thread

ScottyRo · 02-18-2005, 04:11 PM

Di, I wasn\'t saying that on the thread about viable QB alternatives I didn\'t use stats. I meant that above when I mentioned McMahon, I didn\'t use stats cuz I wasn\'t comparing the two.

I think the red zone ints are overstated too though. Not because there wasn\'t that many or AB didn\'t lead the league, but because, again, that could be a sympton of a problem in another area. Just hear me out...

Farther back on the field even though the o-line wasn\'t giving AB as much time as any QB would need, he could rush his throws and get away without an int. Near the goalline this is not the case because the field is smaller. Thus, the number of sq yards each defender has to cover is smaller and there is not as much room. Mental mistakes are part of it, but I say that your stat about red zone ints is an indication of a problem bigger than AB. Without protection and without being able to pick up blitzes, it\'s plain to see why he might rush some throws or make bad decisions.

This doesn\'t mean he isn\'t to blame on redzone INTs. I just don\'t think they are entirely a product of his QB play alone.

saintswhodi · 02-18-2005, 04:28 PM

Okay, then I give up. Truly. Does it matter if a UFO was picking up AB\'s red zone passes and dropping them in the hands of opposing defenders? No. The fact is he led the league. I saw in more than one game where AB took a two step drop on the goal line and rifled a pass to Horn that went for an INT. That has nothing to do with blocking or anything else outside of poor decision making in the red zone.

But I give up discussing this cause all anyone will ever give for AB is excuse after excuse after excuse. It\'s never his fault. Poor baby the world has conspired against him so that he is never able to succeed cause the plan is to hold him back. I don\'t know how many times it has to be pointed out that teams with the same problems as us seem to be able to do enough to make the playoffs. And the MAIN difference is at QB, and the kinds of mistakes they make. But I guess it really doesn\'t matter cause the excuses are taxing me. If someone on my job had to make this many excuses for me as to why I as an individual couldn\'t get it done, I would be out of a job. I was late cause it rained. The printer was down so I couldn\'t meet the deadline for my report. The coffee was cold so I fell asleep at my desk. I didn\'t mean to lose that check but I forgot to write down the tracking number from DHL. My alarm didn\'t go off so I slept in. All my slacks are at the cleaners so I have on jeans. My calendar didn\'t save the date and time I entered for the meeting so I missed it. Now I can say all these are valid excuses for me not doing my job, but when is enough enough? I am sure I would be fired if I had to list excuse after excuse after excuse like this.

So as I can see the excuses will never end, and as I can see that Gumbo\'s words ring true in more people\'s minds than just his

year after year after year something hinders AB

I see there is really no point in presenting a case opposing AB, cause the excuses will always outweigh the facts. Thanks for the convo you guys. You have beat me into submission.

I am reminded of a convo I had with my stepdad yesterday. And we were discussing the Saints for this year. And I started to talk to him about Brooks. He told me, I don\'t support Brooks because I think he is good, I support him cause he is who we have. And that was good enough for him. He is a diehard Saints fan, season ticket holder too. Hornets as well. He criticized AB, saying he noticed as he sat at every game that AB locked onto one receiver, usually Horn, and that was it, no matter who was open. No progression no nothing. But he didn\'t make excuses for it. He stated it as fact, and still voiced his support for AB cause he is who we have. I have more respect for his \"he is who we have\" mindset than all the excuses AB gets. And before everyone gets into a tizzy, I am not saying I don\'t respect any of you guys cause I respect every one of you, just not the excuses given for AB. I hope you all understand the difference.

[Edited on 18/2/2005 by saintswhodi]

ScottyRo · 02-18-2005, 05:11 PM

You\'re right, there is a time when these mistakes are too much to take. however, that time comes when we have someone at QB that we can be confident in doing better. We don\'t have that now and we might not have it by the time the season starts.

Any QB we bring in will basically be dealing with the same problems that AB deals with (AKA excuses). I am just not ready to trade one QB who gets some things done while looking at times like a blundering fool for a QB that cannot get those same things done. That\'s the bottomline. It\'s not really about what AB can or cannot do. It\'s about who we have to replace him. I got off track and started trying to justify AB, but that\'s because other were off-track and were blaming AB.

saintswhodi · 02-18-2005, 05:22 PM

Understood.

Saint_LB · 02-18-2005, 05:39 PM

Farther back on the field even though the o-line wasn\'t giving AB as much time as any QB would need, he could rush his throws and get away without an int. Near the goalline this is not the case because the field is smaller. Thus, the number of sq yards each defender has to cover is smaller and there is not as much room. Mental mistakes are part of it, but I say that your stat about red zone ints is an indication of a problem bigger than AB. Without protection and without being able to pick up blitzes, it\'s plain to see why he might rush some throws or make bad decisions.

I gotta tell you, whodi, that I almost fell out of my chair when I read this one. I said to myself, \"Now this has got to take the cake.\" If this does not prove the point about all of the excuses made for AB, then I don\'t know what would. I am still chuckling, can\'t help it. Scotty, please don\'t take offense to my comment, I sincerely am not trying to tick you off. I have a suspicion that you made this comment to sort of \"jerk our chains\", maybe smiling yourself as you typed it. Were you?

SaintFanInATLHELL · 02-18-2005, 05:56 PM

SFIAh, funny. Say it was 5. Who the hell cares? He still leads the league as reported by foxsports. If you don\'t wanna accept that, fine. But that isn\'t Joe Blow\'s website. It\'s foxsports, you know where they have editors and such. And fact checkers. So basically your impression is that foxsports, a national sports media giant, with the ability to watch and analyze every play of every game, would lie about a stat like that? Give me a break. I see you have no argument left so I will expect your next post to be calling for Ab\'s head. Thanks. :P

I didn\'t say the information wasn\'t correct, it\'s just that without the raw number there\'s no context to put it in. Peyton Manning, arguably the best QB in the NFL, is #2 in this category. If Brooks is way out of wack (like 9-11 RZTO) then it\'s much more meaningful than if the number is 5.

The moderates are very clear about Brooks. The guy\'s got problems. The guy also produces. The offense the guy is in wins when the team defense is average. According to NFL.com stats defenses giving up an average of 21 PPG were in the middle of the pack (Atlanta was 14th at 21.1). Stats over the last 4 years shows that the offense with Brooks at the helm would win 11-12 games a year if the defense were average (20-8 for a 714 winning percentage)

Each and every other QB that has been brought to the table so far either isn\'t a starter (McMahon) or is a castoff from another team (Warner, Bledsoe, Garcia, etc.)

It\'s so clear to Brooks bashers that the guy is a cancer and he needs to get gone as quickly as possible. Moderates understand that he has problems, but that there is nothing yet so egregious that he needs to be cast off.

If next year he throws 22 picks, loses 10 fumbles, pa22es for 2400 yards and 15 TD, a line similar to Vick\'s this year, then I\'ll be calling for his head.

I\'m done on this thread. I\'ll catch ya\'ll arguing elsewhere.

SFIAH

[Edited on 18/2/2005 by SaintFanInATLHELL]

ScottyRo · 02-18-2005, 06:00 PM

Not entirely LB. My point which maybe I didn\'t get across is that it\'s tougher to get things done in the Red Zone. If I am wrong, please let me know.

I applied this to AB\'s red zone INTs by suggesting that the other offense problems exacerbate the increased difficulty of playing in the red zone. I think that is fairly valid. It doesn\'t excuse AB and I\'m not wanting to do that. My point is that other factors contribute to certain things and these red zone turnovers cannot be looked at in a vacuum of AB\'s play alone.

If it\'s the stupidest thing I\'ve ever said then so be it. At least it got a laugh!

Saint_LB · 02-18-2005, 06:15 PM

Not entirely LB. My point which maybe I didn\'t get across is that it\'s tougher to get things done in the Red Zone. If I am wrong, please let me know.

I applied this to AB\'s red zone INTs by suggesting that the other offense problems exacerbate the increased difficulty of playing in the red zone. I think that is fairly valid. It doesn\'t excuse AB and I\'m not wanting to do that. My point is that other factors contribute to certain things and these red zone turnovers cannot be looked at in a vacuum of AB\'s play alone.

If it\'s the stupidest thing I\'ve ever said then so be it. At least it got a laugh!

No, Scotty, you are not wrong. I can\'t tell you how many times I\'ve heard the commentators say, \"They\'re in the red-zone now, the going gets tougher down here.\" The thing that I found humorous was that no matter what is said negative about AB, there is always a \"yeah, but....\", which was already mentioned earlier, in this thread, I think.

For what it is worth, Scotty, I do see the points that you and the others are making regarding AB and can totally understand all of your reasoning. I don\'t dislike AB, and would love to see him shut me up next year. I have to say, however, that in all my years of following the Saints, I can\'t remember anyone who has had such ups and downs. I can\'t remember any person who was so good at times that he would have people supporting him come hell or high water, and who has had so many lows that he would have so many people calling for his head...and all at the same time. To tell you the truth, I don\'t know what would happen to this forum if he were to leave...what would we have to talk about. Would it still be so addicting...I think not.

JKool · 02-19-2005, 03:16 AM

Way to take up the sword Scotty and SFIAH. Well done gentlemen.

Saint_LB · 02-19-2005, 08:30 AM

Way to take up the sword Scotty and SFIAH. Well done gentlemen.

Scotty and SFIAH, nice work.

Nice work SFIAH. Well put.

JK, just curious. You ever consider trying out for the Saintsations? You\'d make a great cheerleader.

02-18-2005, 04:11 PM	#101
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	another i cant hepp it thread Di, I wasn\'t saying that on the thread about viable QB alternatives I didn\'t use stats. I meant that above when I mentioned McMahon, I didn\'t use stats cuz I wasn\'t comparing the two. I think the red zone ints are overstated too though. Not because there wasn\'t that many or AB didn\'t lead the league, but because, again, that could be a sympton of a problem in another area. Just hear me out... Farther back on the field even though the o-line wasn\'t giving AB as much time as any QB would need, he could rush his throws and get away without an int. Near the goalline this is not the case because the field is smaller. Thus, the number of sq yards each defender has to cover is smaller and there is not as much room. Mental mistakes are part of it, but I say that your stat about red zone ints is an indication of a problem bigger than AB. Without protection and without being able to pick up blitzes, it\'s plain to see why he might rush some throws or make bad decisions. This doesn\'t mean he isn\'t to blame on redzone INTs. I just don\'t think they are entirely a product of his QB play alone.

02-18-2005, 04:28 PM	#102
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread Okay, then I give up. Truly. Does it matter if a UFO was picking up AB\'s red zone passes and dropping them in the hands of opposing defenders? No. The fact is he led the league. I saw in more than one game where AB took a two step drop on the goal line and rifled a pass to Horn that went for an INT. That has nothing to do with blocking or anything else outside of poor decision making in the red zone. But I give up discussing this cause all anyone will ever give for AB is excuse after excuse after excuse. It\'s never his fault. Poor baby the world has conspired against him so that he is never able to succeed cause the plan is to hold him back. I don\'t know how many times it has to be pointed out that teams with the same problems as us seem to be able to do enough to make the playoffs. And the MAIN difference is at QB, and the kinds of mistakes they make. But I guess it really doesn\'t matter cause the excuses are taxing me. If someone on my job had to make this many excuses for me as to why I as an individual couldn\'t get it done, I would be out of a job. I was late cause it rained. The printer was down so I couldn\'t meet the deadline for my report. The coffee was cold so I fell asleep at my desk. I didn\'t mean to lose that check but I forgot to write down the tracking number from DHL. My alarm didn\'t go off so I slept in. All my slacks are at the cleaners so I have on jeans. My calendar didn\'t save the date and time I entered for the meeting so I missed it. Now I can say all these are valid excuses for me not doing my job, but when is enough enough? I am sure I would be fired if I had to list excuse after excuse after excuse like this. So as I can see the excuses will never end, and as I can see that Gumbo\'s words ring true in more people\'s minds than just his year after year after year something hinders AB I see there is really no point in presenting a case opposing AB, cause the excuses will always outweigh the facts. Thanks for the convo you guys. You have beat me into submission. I am reminded of a convo I had with my stepdad yesterday. And we were discussing the Saints for this year. And I started to talk to him about Brooks. He told me, I don\'t support Brooks because I think he is good, I support him cause he is who we have. And that was good enough for him. He is a diehard Saints fan, season ticket holder too. Hornets as well. He criticized AB, saying he noticed as he sat at every game that AB locked onto one receiver, usually Horn, and that was it, no matter who was open. No progression no nothing. But he didn\'t make excuses for it. He stated it as fact, and still voiced his support for AB cause he is who we have. I have more respect for his \"he is who we have\" mindset than all the excuses AB gets. And before everyone gets into a tizzy, I am not saying I don\'t respect any of you guys cause I respect every one of you, just not the excuses given for AB. I hope you all understand the difference. [Edited on 18/2/2005 by saintswhodi]

02-18-2005, 05:11 PM	#103
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	another i cant hepp it thread You\'re right, there is a time when these mistakes are too much to take. however, that time comes when we have someone at QB that we can be confident in doing better. We don\'t have that now and we might not have it by the time the season starts. Any QB we bring in will basically be dealing with the same problems that AB deals with (AKA excuses). I am just not ready to trade one QB who gets some things done while looking at times like a blundering fool for a QB that cannot get those same things done. That\'s the bottomline. It\'s not really about what AB can or cannot do. It\'s about who we have to replace him. I got off track and started trying to justify AB, but that\'s because other were off-track and were blaming AB.

02-18-2005, 05:22 PM	#104
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	another i cant hepp it thread Understood.

02-18-2005, 05:39 PM	#105
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	another i cant hepp it thread Farther back on the field even though the o-line wasn\'t giving AB as much time as any QB would need, he could rush his throws and get away without an int. Near the goalline this is not the case because the field is smaller. Thus, the number of sq yards each defender has to cover is smaller and there is not as much room. Mental mistakes are part of it, but I say that your stat about red zone ints is an indication of a problem bigger than AB. Without protection and without being able to pick up blitzes, it\'s plain to see why he might rush some throws or make bad decisions. I gotta tell you, whodi, that I almost fell out of my chair when I read this one. I said to myself, \"Now this has got to take the cake.\" If this does not prove the point about all of the excuses made for AB, then I don\'t know what would. I am still chuckling, can\'t help it. Scotty, please don\'t take offense to my comment, I sincerely am not trying to tick you off. I have a suspicion that you made this comment to sort of \"jerk our chains\", maybe smiling yourself as you typed it. Were you?
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right!

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02-18-2005, 05:56 PM	#106
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	another i cant hepp it thread SFIAh, funny. Say it was 5. Who the hell cares? He still leads the league as reported by foxsports. If you don\'t wanna accept that, fine. But that isn\'t Joe Blow\'s website. It\'s foxsports, you know where they have editors and such. And fact checkers. So basically your impression is that foxsports, a national sports media giant, with the ability to watch and analyze every play of every game, would lie about a stat like that? Give me a break. I see you have no argument left so I will expect your next post to be calling for Ab\'s head. Thanks. :P I didn\'t say the information wasn\'t correct, it\'s just that without the raw number there\'s no context to put it in. Peyton Manning, arguably the best QB in the NFL, is #2 in this category. If Brooks is way out of wack (like 9-11 RZTO) then it\'s much more meaningful than if the number is 5. The moderates are very clear about Brooks. The guy\'s got problems. The guy also produces. The offense the guy is in wins when the team defense is average. According to NFL.com stats defenses giving up an average of 21 PPG were in the middle of the pack (Atlanta was 14th at 21.1). Stats over the last 4 years shows that the offense with Brooks at the helm would win 11-12 games a year if the defense were average (20-8 for a 714 winning percentage) Each and every other QB that has been brought to the table so far either isn\'t a starter (McMahon) or is a castoff from another team (Warner, Bledsoe, Garcia, etc.) It\'s so clear to Brooks bashers that the guy is a cancer and he needs to get gone as quickly as possible. Moderates understand that he has problems, but that there is nothing yet so egregious that he needs to be cast off. If next year he throws 22 picks, loses 10 fumbles, pa22es for 2400 yards and 15 TD, a line similar to Vick\'s this year, then I\'ll be calling for his head. I\'m done on this thread. I\'ll catch ya\'ll arguing elsewhere. SFIAH [Edited on 18/2/2005 by SaintFanInATLHELL]
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

02-18-2005, 06:00 PM	#107
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	another i cant hepp it thread Not entirely LB. My point which maybe I didn\'t get across is that it\'s tougher to get things done in the Red Zone. If I am wrong, please let me know. I applied this to AB\'s red zone INTs by suggesting that the other offense problems exacerbate the increased difficulty of playing in the red zone. I think that is fairly valid. It doesn\'t excuse AB and I\'m not wanting to do that. My point is that other factors contribute to certain things and these red zone turnovers cannot be looked at in a vacuum of AB\'s play alone. If it\'s the stupidest thing I\'ve ever said then so be it. At least it got a laugh!

02-18-2005, 06:15 PM	#108
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	another i cant hepp it thread Not entirely LB. My point which maybe I didn\'t get across is that it\'s tougher to get things done in the Red Zone. If I am wrong, please let me know. I applied this to AB\'s red zone INTs by suggesting that the other offense problems exacerbate the increased difficulty of playing in the red zone. I think that is fairly valid. It doesn\'t excuse AB and I\'m not wanting to do that. My point is that other factors contribute to certain things and these red zone turnovers cannot be looked at in a vacuum of AB\'s play alone. If it\'s the stupidest thing I\'ve ever said then so be it. At least it got a laugh! No, Scotty, you are not wrong. I can\'t tell you how many times I\'ve heard the commentators say, \"They\'re in the red-zone now, the going gets tougher down here.\" The thing that I found humorous was that no matter what is said negative about AB, there is always a \"yeah, but....\", which was already mentioned earlier, in this thread, I think. For what it is worth, Scotty, I do see the points that you and the others are making regarding AB and can totally understand all of your reasoning. I don\'t dislike AB, and would love to see him shut me up next year. I have to say, however, that in all my years of following the Saints, I can\'t remember anyone who has had such ups and downs. I can\'t remember any person who was so good at times that he would have people supporting him come hell or high water, and who has had so many lows that he would have so many people calling for his head...and all at the same time. To tell you the truth, I don\'t know what would happen to this forum if he were to leave...what would we have to talk about. Would it still be so addicting...I think not.
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right!

02-19-2005, 03:16 AM	#109
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	another i cant hepp it thread Way to take up the sword Scotty and SFIAH. Well done gentlemen.

02-19-2005, 08:30 AM	#110
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	another i cant hepp it thread Way to take up the sword Scotty and SFIAH. Well done gentlemen. Scotty and SFIAH, nice work. Nice work SFIAH. Well put. JK, just curious. You ever consider trying out for the Saintsations? You\'d make a great cheerleader.
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894