WhoDat

I took ON THIS TEAM to mean you were talking about guys ON THIS TEAM...


Whodi, you can make totally unsubstantiated comments about what other guys might do on this team all you want. My counter argument is simple and strong.

In 2004, Joe Horn was 2nd in the league in receiving. He did that with the 27th ranked rushing attack. The 32nd tanked defense. A QB ranked in the middle to bottom part of the league in many stats who had a bad year, and TEs and WRs that offered no other real threat. In 2004, the key to stopping the Saints offense was easy - stop Joe Horn. No one else produced at a high level. Teams knew who to key on. No one could stop him.

If all these other guys you listed could put up 90 receptions, 1300 yards, and 11 TDs on a team with the 27th ranked rushing attack, 20+ ranked QB, no other WR in the top 50, a 20+ ranked TE, and the worst defense in the league, why can\'t they do it on their teams?

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

GumboBC

Yeah, that makes sense. Seriously it does make SOME sense.

But, what about Brooks, WhoDat?

1. 27th ranked rushing attack.
2. terrible offensive line.
3. Only one reliable receiver.
4. Terrible play calling (accoding to you and some others)

Why do you never apply that to Brooks? That\'s why I can\'t take you too seriously. Seems you have an agenda?

saintswhodi

I could go on, but why. Why draft anyone from college? With all these \"proven\" guys already in the NFL, why let anyone retire? Just keep re-signing these \"proven\" guys until they can\'t walk anymore. Right? Is that the plan? So basically we should cut Stallworth and sign Jerry Rice, he is a proven guy. The Vikes should replace Moss with Tim Brown, another proven guy. Obviously in your reasoning the NFL should not be based on what you WILL do, but what you have done. So why are we discussing Howard? Let him go and we can sign Bruce Smith. Sure he is retired, but he WAS real good years back. Let\'s just keep getting players based on what they HAD done. Forget what other players COULD do. Forget age. Once again, good plan. Think we can get Anthony Munoz to come play for our line? He was good years back.

You want guys who put up numbers on sorry offenses? In 2003, Coles had 82 recepts, 1200 yards, and 6 TDs. Washington\'s offense was 23rd overall. Ours was 11th. Washington\'s rushing offense was 22nd. Washington was 25 in total D. Good enough? Patrick Ramsey was the qb, and Tim Hasselbeck. Good enough? This was before Portis. Good enough? Coles went to the Pro Bowl. HE would eclipse and shatter Joe\'s numbers in our offense. Come on man.

Tobias-Reiper

... I think what WhoDat is trying to say is the same thing that I posted: yes there are many WRs in the NFL who are better than Horn, yes there are many that could be better than Horn if given the chance, and yes there are WRs playing in college now that will be better than Horn once they get on the NFL, but the reality for the Saints offense today is that Joe Horn is the best WR on the team and, as far as production goes, no other WR on the Saints roster comes even close.

.. like I said before, I am not a \"stats\" guy, but check this out:
this past season, Joe got 1399 yds on 94 receptions and 11 td\'s on a bum knee. The next best was Donte, with 767 yds on 58 catches for 5 tds. The 3rd best was Pathon, 581 on 34 and 1 td. The next three are not even WRs (1 TE and 2 RB\'s). Pathon is gone.

..so here\'s the deal..
if Joe goes, the Saints would need Donte to finally break out and play the #1 WR position and put out Horn-like production. Possible? Maybe, maybe not...

then the next WR in line for the #2 spot would be... drum roll... Michael Lewis,,. yep, the Beerman... yes they could give Devery and/or Talman the #2... and maybe they would do ok...

...are there any prospects, even on a trade or in the draft? Nope...

.. the question really is not whether Horn is going to be here in 5 years producing like he has for the past 5... the question is how valuable is that production, or the expectation of that production, in the next 1-2 years? Do you want to take out of the picture the one good constant the team has had for the past 5 years and make yet one more position an issue?

..now don\'t get me wrong, if not signing Horn would mean bringing in, say Ray Lewis or Orlando Pace (and exaggeration, but you get the point) sure, by all means... but just to \"save the money\" or \"not paying because he\'s old\".. well..

'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

WhoDat

why let anyone retire? Just keep re-signing these \"proven\" guys until they can\'t walk anymore. Right? [/quote:3710495d57]

Well Whodi, you\'ve identified one of my beliefs. I do believe in improving in FA is a better way to get a team over the hump. The draft is a long-term tool for building, IMO. This team doesn\'t have 5 years to wait for players to develop. The time is now. Key acquisitions of players who can make an immediate impact will make or break this team\'s playoff and/or SB aspirations - and I say that you get proven impact players - generally that\'s a more successful model, IMO, than drafting a player - which tends to be more of a crap shoot.

Secondly, you are polarizing the argument in Billy-esque fashion. Have I suggested that the Saints shouldn\'t look to improve via the draft? No, never. But your statement seems to suggest that the Saints should cut Horn just as soon as they draft a WR. Why not? He\'s younger and will likely be more talented, no? So just dump Horn, some rookie will solve all your problems at WR... to suggest that drafting a player at a position where you have a Pro Bowler makes the Pro Bowler expendable is ridiculous.

Likewise, you imply that I am calling for the Saints to keep Horn until he can\'t walk. I never have. You seem pretty certain that Joe Horn\'s skills are diminishing and will continue to drop sharply over the next few seasons. I don\'t think that is the case. His stats would suggest the opposite - that he hasn\'t lost any ability to be a top 5 WR in terms of production. Moreover, I\'ve heard people suggest that Joe Horn had nothing left for three straight seasons now. That simply hasn\'t been the case. But hey, since you can predict the future I guess I should just listen to you and believe that Joe Horn won\'t be effective next season. Want to place a wager on that?

On a side note - you lose some credibility when you polarize arguments like you continue to do in this thread. If you really think that the idea of keeping Joe Horn is tantamount to hiring Bruce Smith out of retirement, then maybe you need to reconsider your ability to judge talent. If you\'re just doing it to make a point, I would suggest going another route. You don\'t see me saying the you\'re suggesting we simply hold an open contest to find the 22 best athletes off the street and throw them on the field - with an age limit of 25 or under of course...

Sure Billy. Let me see if I can think of any differences between Joe Horn and Aaron Brooks...

Despite an inconsistent offense, Joe Horn is a model of consistency for the Saints. Despite poor play around him, Joe Horn has gone to the Pro Bowl four of the last 5 years and his stats show he has produced on the field at a top 5 level for 5 straight years... oh yeah, he\'s being paid at a rate commisserate with a guy ranked 15th or 20th.

Now let\'s try Aaron Brooks.

Despite an inconsisent offense, AB has found a way to be even more inconsistent than the rest of the players around him. Considering the way this team plays, that\'s saying something. Despite great years out of his Pro Bowl WR and RB, Brooks has never been to the Pro Bowl. He got a top 5 contract but has produced at a rate of 15th to 20th in the league at a position where he is competing against 30 other guys, as compared to Horn who is competing against 75 or 100. You want to find an excuse for Brooks every year, but the point is, if he was a good QB, he would produce that way DESPITE other players around him. Horn has. Deuce has. Brooks has not. If I was suggesting paying Stallworth top 5 money simply b/c he said he was worth it and that he would hold out if he didn\'t get it, then you might have a point. Alas, as usual, you do not.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

saintswhodi

You can question what you want about me Who, ain\'t gonna bother me. I polarize cause that\'s what I hear. The point is, noone is knocking what Joe HAS done, I am knocking what he WILL BE doing in 1, 2 or 3 years. Joe has demanded top 5 money, get that? He isn\'t a top 5 receiver now, I doubt he will be going forward. So the difference is, you wanna pay Joe for what he HAS done, when all common knowledge of the NFL and age show he will not be able to continue to do that. How dumb will we look then?

Tobias, you seem to think I am suggesting Joe walk with no back-up plan. I don\'t know if you read the rest of the disagreements but my plan was to trade him instead of paying him. My main goal was to trade him to Minny for #7 since they needed a receiver but they just signed Trav Taylor so I doubt they are shopping for any more receivers. But I would try for Mike Williams, who would be Joe and more. That kid is a rare talent with huge size. Or trade Joe for a younger proven receiver, like a Boldin or whomever. I am not discussing letting him just walk away, it seems that was the point you were tying to make.

Tobias-Reiper

nope,. I am just stating the reality of the situation...yeah it would be great to get Mike Williams, sure, but the reality is that the Saints are not going to get him...

... also, I do think you need to look more closely at your arguments, because your \"backup plans\" really don\'t make sense...

..why would Minnesota trade its #7 for Joe Horn, if they got a chance to get either Braylon Edwards or Mike Williams?

..why would the Cardinals trade Anquan Boldin for Joe Horn? They got 2 good looking young players at WR on a franchise that\'s just going into its second year of rebuilding... Dennis Green ain\'t that stupid..

The reality is, players like Joe Horn do have a chance to get paid in free agency, but they are NOT going to make for good trade bait because of their age...

..the reality of the Saints is that, in the next 2 years, barring a huge trade and Loomis eating someone\'s lunch (yeah, that\'s gonna happen) the best the Saints got going for them at WR is Joe Horn. As it is today, should Joe Horn be out of the pciture, your startding WRs for your new Orleans Saints would be #1 Donte Stallworth and #2 Michael Lewis.. if you don\'t pay Horn, then Horn is disgruntled... you want that in your locker room? If you let him go, you got only if\'s..

.. I am not saying they should or shouldn\'t pay him \"top 5\" money.. I am just stating the reality of the situation as it pertains to the Saints.

'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

saintswhodi

That\'s all well and good tobias, but since I am not a GM, any plan I propose to replace Horn is flawed. Doesn\'t mean the team is gonna do it. So if you are gonna say someone has no back-up plan, then poo-poo it when they make suggestions cause YOU don\'t find it plausible, what\'s the point? I am saying what I would like to see happen were Joe not here, I am saying who I would like to see if I were in a position to try and move Joe. I am listing people I feel could be replacements, doesn\'t me we can get them or that it makes sense. Once again, it\'s MY OPINION of who I would like to see replace Joe, sorry it doesn\'t fit into a plan outlined by the Saints in the paper so it could be facts for you.

Saintuary

Joe for Crumpler, in a heartbeat.

yasoon

Ummmmm....there are not \"many\" receivers better than Horn in this league. I am getting so tired of this argument. List them, please. How did he make the pro bowl on a team in the middle of the pack with no exposure if he is so average?

I agree with WhoDat. The whole \"sign tim brown over moss\" blah blah is so childish. It\'s the exact reason I don\'t visit the nola board any more....every argument goes that route.

Having said this, it may be time for Joe to move on. If he is supposedly calling out the GM (for better or worse), then that just can\'t be pretty in the long run. If he\'s threatening to hold out....we may have to send him down the road. This team is too volatile for that mess. Things will have to be really harmonious around saints camp for this team to have a good year. This situation will get worse before it gets better.

I don\'t like it, but we need to either move Horn and grab a legitimate rookie stud (Braylon would be my choice) or clean up the Horn stuff in short order, which will be easier said than done.