Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...

WhoDat · 03-18-2005, 10:02 AM

The point is, noone is knocking what Joe HAS done, I am knocking what he WILL BE doing in 1, 2 or 3 years. Joe has demanded top 5 money, get that? He isn\'t a top 5 receiver now, I doubt he will be going forward. So the difference is, you wanna pay Joe for what he HAS done, when all common knowledge of the NFL and age show he will not be able to continue to do that. How dumb will we look then?

You could have said the EXACT SAME THING two years ago when he signed his contract extension, and you would have been COMPLETELY WRONG.

First, Joe Horn is a top 5 WR. He\'s top 5 based on what he produces on the field. That\'s what matters in the NFL, in case you hadn\'t noticed. If only talent matters, the Saints are better than the Patriots. You ready to make that statement?

Second, I\'m not playing the crystal ball game and tell you what Joe Horn will or won\'t do 3 years from now. I\'m glad that you can predict the future, I can\'t. What I am telling you is that the man has not shown signs of slowing. He isn\'t losing a step yet.

saintswhodi · 03-18-2005, 10:14 AM

So two years ago he was two years younger right? If something happened TWO YEARS AGO, that means we have advanced 2 years beyong that point correct? Or is Joe still the same age he was TWO YEARS AGO? I think we know the answer, at least I do. In case you didn\'t get the memo, he ain\'t. Two years is a WORLD of difference in NFL player years, especially on this size of 30. Two years ago Wayne Gandy was good. Two years ago, Mayberry was in the pro bowl. Two years ago, Jerry Rice was the leading receiver on the Oakland Raiders Superbowl team. Two years ago Warren Sapp was still considered one of the top DTs in the game. Two years ago, San Diego was picking first int he draft just about every year. Two years ago, the Pats weren\'t in the Superbowl. See how things can chance in TWO YEARS?

Second, if you don\'t think age is a factor when players negotiate contracts, there really is no way to convince you otherwise. But people who make these decisions in the NFL are smart enough make that a factor, and I thank God for it. No player in the NFL at 33 years old would get a top 5 contract, except if you are an elite player, such as a Marvin Harrison, who has been doing it for 9 years, not 4 or 5. MArvin has averaged double digit TDs the past 6 years with 15 last year, has Joe? Hell no, not on his best day. So he isn\'t and shouldn\'t get paid like that. Joe ain\'t taking us to the playoffs, so what makes him indispensible?

And, you say you aren\'t paying the crystal ball game, but you wanna pay Joe top 5. So what you are saying is, you believe Joe will prove his value at top 5 money for the forseeable future. Hate to break it to you, but that\'s using a crystal ball. You are predicting Joe will be at the same level and deserving of a high contract. I am predicting he won\'t. How is that different from what you are doing again?

Tobias-Reiper · 03-18-2005, 12:06 PM

I think what WhoDat is trying to say is the same thing that I posted: yes there are many WRs in the NFL who are better than Horn, yes there are many that could be better than Horn if given the chance,

Ummmmm....there are not \"many\" receivers better than Horn in this league. I am getting so tired of this argument. List them, please.

..off the top of my head...

Marvin Harrison
Deion Branch
Hines Ward
Randy Moss
Terrell Owens

... that\'s many... how many is \"many\" for you? ..and these are flat out better than Horn, not only at receiving, but in the case of Ward and Branch, at blocking also...

..we can keep going...

Reggie Wayne
Brandon Stokley
Laverneous Coles
Torry Holt
Rod Smith
Steve Smith
Chad Johnson

... others you can argue for or against.; a bunch where I would put Horn with:
Issac Bruce
Eddie Kennison
Mihsin Mohammad
Marty Booker

WhoDat · 03-18-2005, 12:18 PM

Hey? Just wondering... can you list those WRs again in order of Pro Bowls they\'ve been to... either in the last 5 years, or ever... thanks.

Tobias-Reiper · 03-18-2005, 02:15 PM

Hey? Just wondering... can you list those WRs again in order of Pro Bowls they\'ve been to... either in the last 5 years, or ever... thanks.

What would be the point of doing that? Demostrate the Joe Horn is better than someone because he has won more popularity constests (which is what the Pro Bowl really is)?

The points I have been trying to make all along are very simple...

...whether there are better receivers in the NFL than Joe Horn or not , the reality of the New Orleans Saints is that Joe Horn is the best receiver in the NFL because he\'s the best WR on the Saints roster , and no one on the Saints roster even comes close. Losing Joe (either by him sitting out, being disgruntled, released, etc...) this year or the next is not a \"pasing of the torch\" situation like Rice-Owens in SF... is simply decimating the WR corps, not knowing whether Donte can actually be a go-to-guy , and having no one behind Donte close to an NFL WR behind him.

..my second point is, what the Saints have to figure out is how much Joe\'s production is worth in the next 1-2 seasons, not 5 years down the road, taking into account what they currently have, which as it is now, is Donte #1 Beerman #2, and practically 2 rookies in Talman and Devery. for 3 and 4, and what they could possibly have in the future..

Saint_LB · 03-18-2005, 02:46 PM

Here\'s a point for you. If I\'m AB, I would be doing everything in my power to keep Horn around. Why? Because we have brought in several players who have seemingly forgot how to catch a ball once they got here. I have often wondered what\'s up with that. One theory is that AB throws a \"hard\" ball. It is entirely possible that it takes a great pair of hands to catch his throws on a consistent basis. Horn is the only one of this group who has demonstrated an ability to hang on to the ball. Who is to say that we may let Horn go, and the next young guy to come in and replace him might have trouble hanging on to AB\'s laser beams. Just a thought...admittedly I could be way off base on this one, but just an observation on players coming here and suddenly not being able to catch the ball.

GumboBC · 03-18-2005, 03:21 PM

Here\'s a point for you. If I\'m AB, I would be doing everything in my power to keep Horn around. Why? Because we have brought in several players who have seemingly forgot how to catch a ball once they got here. I have often wondered what\'s up with that. One theory is that AB throws a \"hard\" ball. It is entirely possible that it takes a great pair of hands to catch his throws on a consistent basis. Horn is the only one of this group who has demonstrated an ability to hang on to the ball. Who is to say that we may let Horn go, and the next young guy to come in and replace him might have trouble hanging on to AB\'s laser beams. Just a thought...admittedly I could be way off base on this one, but just an observation on players coming here and suddenly not being able to catch the ball.

Maybe I\'m very stupid, but if a catchable ball is dropped, I put the blame on the receiver. This in the freakin\' NFL. You\'ve got guys like Brett Favre, Aaron Brooks, and several other QBs who throw the ball very hard and fast. The receivers HAVE to hold on to it.

And Joe Horn has never done anything without Brooks.

And when Willie Jackson was here, he never dropped AB\'s passes.

Willie Jackson:
2001 New Orleans Saints 16 16 81 1046 12.9 63 5 14 3 54

The best year(s) Willie Jackson and Joe Horn ever had was when Brooks was the QB.

Joe makes some tough catches at times, but he drops way too many catchable balls.

WhoDat · 03-18-2005, 03:43 PM

Joe makes some tough catches at times, but he drops way too many catchable balls.

Name three times other than the TB game.

yasoon · 03-18-2005, 04:46 PM

The best year(s) Willie Jackson and Joe Horn ever had was when Brooks was the QB.

Joe makes some tough catches at times, but he drops way too many catchable balls.

OK...Horn broke out with the Saints and he broke out the same year AB hit the scene. Maybe you don\'t remember this but there was a different QB throwing the ball to Horn as he was breaking out. (The first 11 games of 2000.) So, of the 1340 yards Joe had that year, how many of those were Brooks? 20% maybe. This shows that Joe was ready to break out AB or no AB. (As a matter of fact it was Blake\'s touch bombs that got Horn started on the highlight reels.) Not alot of those touch bombs raining down over the last couple of years. (I\'m not saying Blake is necessarily better than AB, but you could argue that this team may make the playoffs in 01 with Blake and in 02 with Jake.)

Are you trying to say that Horn is nothing without AB? That\'s very nice.

For every catchable ball that Joe drops, he snags 2-3 that are a foot over his head or leading him into a hit/double coverage.

I used to try to defend Brooks cuz he usually had a good game for every bad one. This year it was more like 3-1. The fact is that we had the streak at the end of the year thanks to better D and duece. The one play that stood out for AB was the Carolina TD pass, which was the best playpass of his career.

Go check out the clinching TD vs Dallas and tell me that was not the work of an elite NFL receiver. Bad throw, ridiculous catch. Game Saints. AB gets a TD on a bad throw.

The fact is that all Saints receivers have made some ill-timed drops over the last couple of years, but they have also layed out for some pretty bad balls and helped your boy out. That\'s part of football.

I was at the Tampa game......Brooks was horrible. Overthrowing everyone and taking 10 yard losses like a psycho. He made one good throw (TD to Donte) in that whole game. The TD to Horn was actually really dangerous and Horn made a play on it.

saintswhodi · 03-18-2005, 04:50 PM

Wow, now that is a point I actually agree with yasoon on. Miracle of miracles. Joe was gonna be Joe AB or no AB. yasoon points to the Tampa game, I point to the Dallas game I was at. Terrible AB, Joe snags a tossed up ball. Td to break the tie in the 4th quarter. I may disagree on a lot of things about Joe, but I will agree it is not AB that makes him good.

03-18-2005, 10:02 AM	#61
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ... The point is, noone is knocking what Joe HAS done, I am knocking what he WILL BE doing in 1, 2 or 3 years. Joe has demanded top 5 money, get that? He isn\'t a top 5 receiver now, I doubt he will be going forward. So the difference is, you wanna pay Joe for what he HAS done, when all common knowledge of the NFL and age show he will not be able to continue to do that. How dumb will we look then? You could have said the EXACT SAME THING two years ago when he signed his contract extension, and you would have been COMPLETELY WRONG. First, Joe Horn is a top 5 WR. He\'s top 5 based on what he produces on the field. That\'s what matters in the NFL, in case you hadn\'t noticed. If only talent matters, the Saints are better than the Patriots. You ready to make that statement? Second, I\'m not playing the crystal ball game and tell you what Joe Horn will or won\'t do 3 years from now. I\'m glad that you can predict the future, I can\'t. What I am telling you is that the man has not shown signs of slowing. He isn\'t losing a step yet.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

03-18-2005, 10:14 AM	#62
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ... So two years ago he was two years younger right? If something happened TWO YEARS AGO, that means we have advanced 2 years beyong that point correct? Or is Joe still the same age he was TWO YEARS AGO? I think we know the answer, at least I do. In case you didn\'t get the memo, he ain\'t. Two years is a WORLD of difference in NFL player years, especially on this size of 30. Two years ago Wayne Gandy was good. Two years ago, Mayberry was in the pro bowl. Two years ago, Jerry Rice was the leading receiver on the Oakland Raiders Superbowl team. Two years ago Warren Sapp was still considered one of the top DTs in the game. Two years ago, San Diego was picking first int he draft just about every year. Two years ago, the Pats weren\'t in the Superbowl. See how things can chance in TWO YEARS? Second, if you don\'t think age is a factor when players negotiate contracts, there really is no way to convince you otherwise. But people who make these decisions in the NFL are smart enough make that a factor, and I thank God for it. No player in the NFL at 33 years old would get a top 5 contract, except if you are an elite player, such as a Marvin Harrison, who has been doing it for 9 years, not 4 or 5. MArvin has averaged double digit TDs the past 6 years with 15 last year, has Joe? Hell no, not on his best day. So he isn\'t and shouldn\'t get paid like that. Joe ain\'t taking us to the playoffs, so what makes him indispensible? And, you say you aren\'t paying the crystal ball game, but you wanna pay Joe top 5. So what you are saying is, you believe Joe will prove his value at top 5 money for the forseeable future. Hate to break it to you, but that\'s using a crystal ball. You are predicting Joe will be at the same level and deserving of a high contract. I am predicting he won\'t. How is that different from what you are doing again?

03-18-2005, 12:06 PM	#63
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ... I think what WhoDat is trying to say is the same thing that I posted: yes there are many WRs in the NFL who are better than Horn, yes there are many that could be better than Horn if given the chance, Ummmmm....there are not \"many\" receivers better than Horn in this league. I am getting so tired of this argument. List them, please. ..off the top of my head... Marvin Harrison Deion Branch Hines Ward Randy Moss Terrell Owens ... that\'s many... how many is \"many\" for you? ..and these are flat out better than Horn, not only at receiving, but in the case of Ward and Branch, at blocking also... ..we can keep going... Reggie Wayne Brandon Stokley Laverneous Coles Torry Holt Rod Smith Steve Smith Chad Johnson ... others you can argue for or against.; a bunch where I would put Horn with: Issac Bruce Eddie Kennison Mihsin Mohammad Marty Booker
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

03-18-2005, 12:18 PM	#64
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ... Hey? Just wondering... can you list those WRs again in order of Pro Bowls they\'ve been to... either in the last 5 years, or ever... thanks.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

03-18-2005, 02:15 PM	#65
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ... Hey? Just wondering... can you list those WRs again in order of Pro Bowls they\'ve been to... either in the last 5 years, or ever... thanks. What would be the point of doing that? Demostrate the Joe Horn is better than someone because he has won more popularity constests (which is what the Pro Bowl really is)? The points I have been trying to make all along are very simple... ...whether there are better receivers in the NFL than Joe Horn or not , the reality of the New Orleans Saints is that Joe Horn is the best receiver in the NFL because he\'s the best WR on the Saints roster , and no one on the Saints roster even comes close. Losing Joe (either by him sitting out, being disgruntled, released, etc...) this year or the next is not a \"pasing of the torch\" situation like Rice-Owens in SF... is simply decimating the WR corps, not knowing whether Donte can actually be a go-to-guy , and having no one behind Donte close to an NFL WR behind him. ..my second point is, what the Saints have to figure out is how much Joe\'s production is worth in the next 1-2 seasons, not 5 years down the road, taking into account what they currently have, which as it is now, is Donte #1 Beerman #2, and practically 2 rookies in Talman and Devery. for 3 and 4, and what they could possibly have in the future..
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

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03-18-2005, 02:46 PM	#66
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ... Here\'s a point for you. If I\'m AB, I would be doing everything in my power to keep Horn around. Why? Because we have brought in several players who have seemingly forgot how to catch a ball once they got here. I have often wondered what\'s up with that. One theory is that AB throws a \"hard\" ball. It is entirely possible that it takes a great pair of hands to catch his throws on a consistent basis. Horn is the only one of this group who has demonstrated an ability to hang on to the ball. Who is to say that we may let Horn go, and the next young guy to come in and replace him might have trouble hanging on to AB\'s laser beams. Just a thought...admittedly I could be way off base on this one, but just an observation on players coming here and suddenly not being able to catch the ball.
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right!

03-18-2005, 03:21 PM	#67
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ... Here\'s a point for you. If I\'m AB, I would be doing everything in my power to keep Horn around. Why? Because we have brought in several players who have seemingly forgot how to catch a ball once they got here. I have often wondered what\'s up with that. One theory is that AB throws a \"hard\" ball. It is entirely possible that it takes a great pair of hands to catch his throws on a consistent basis. Horn is the only one of this group who has demonstrated an ability to hang on to the ball. Who is to say that we may let Horn go, and the next young guy to come in and replace him might have trouble hanging on to AB\'s laser beams. Just a thought...admittedly I could be way off base on this one, but just an observation on players coming here and suddenly not being able to catch the ball. Maybe I\'m very stupid, but if a catchable ball is dropped, I put the blame on the receiver. This in the freakin\' NFL. You\'ve got guys like Brett Favre, Aaron Brooks, and several other QBs who throw the ball very hard and fast. The receivers HAVE to hold on to it. And Joe Horn has never done anything without Brooks. And when Willie Jackson was here, he never dropped AB\'s passes. Willie Jackson: 2001 New Orleans Saints 16 16 81 1046 12.9 63 5 14 3 54 The best year(s) Willie Jackson and Joe Horn ever had was when Brooks was the QB. Joe makes some tough catches at times, but he drops way too many catchable balls.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-18-2005, 03:43 PM	#68
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ... Joe makes some tough catches at times, but he drops way too many catchable balls. Name three times other than the TB game.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

03-18-2005, 04:46 PM	#69
yasoon 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 594	Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ... The best year(s) Willie Jackson and Joe Horn ever had was when Brooks was the QB. Joe makes some tough catches at times, but he drops way too many catchable balls. OK...Horn broke out with the Saints and he broke out the same year AB hit the scene. Maybe you don\'t remember this but there was a different QB throwing the ball to Horn as he was breaking out. (The first 11 games of 2000.) So, of the 1340 yards Joe had that year, how many of those were Brooks? 20% maybe. This shows that Joe was ready to break out AB or no AB. (As a matter of fact it was Blake\'s touch bombs that got Horn started on the highlight reels.) Not alot of those touch bombs raining down over the last couple of years. (I\'m not saying Blake is necessarily better than AB, but you could argue that this team may make the playoffs in 01 with Blake and in 02 with Jake.) Are you trying to say that Horn is nothing without AB? That\'s very nice. For every catchable ball that Joe drops, he snags 2-3 that are a foot over his head or leading him into a hit/double coverage. I used to try to defend Brooks cuz he usually had a good game for every bad one. This year it was more like 3-1. The fact is that we had the streak at the end of the year thanks to better D and duece. The one play that stood out for AB was the Carolina TD pass, which was the best playpass of his career. Go check out the clinching TD vs Dallas and tell me that was not the work of an elite NFL receiver. Bad throw, ridiculous catch. Game Saints. AB gets a TD on a bad throw. The fact is that all Saints receivers have made some ill-timed drops over the last couple of years, but they have also layed out for some pretty bad balls and helped your boy out. That\'s part of football. I was at the Tampa game......Brooks was horrible. Overthrowing everyone and taking 10 yard losses like a psycho. He made one good throw (TD to Donte) in that whole game. The TD to Horn was actually really dangerous and Horn made a play on it.
yasoon 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 594

03-18-2005, 04:50 PM	#70
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ... Wow, now that is a point I actually agree with yasoon on. Miracle of miracles. Joe was gonna be Joe AB or no AB. yasoon points to the Tampa game, I point to the Dallas game I was at. Terrible AB, Joe snags a tossed up ball. Td to break the tie in the 4th quarter. I may disagree on a lot of things about Joe, but I will agree it is not AB that makes him good.