saintz08

Not with Fumbalaya , No defense readin , No Audible callin and Runnin into defenders Brooks under center ....

saintfan

A week\'s worth of training and look what I somehow managed to miss! Welcome aboard Kool...just don\'t aim those pea shooters at me, k? LOL

eer:

yasoon

B&B....I think we see things alike.

I don\'t think anyone would argue Moss vs. Horn or Terrell vs. Horn.

Those are pretty clear cut guys who are tops in the league.

Gumbo....I agree with B&B...it\'s hard to tell if you\'re just trying to get attention or what.

I think Marvin is a stud receiver, no doubt. But....acting like he is so much better than Horn just doesn\'t work for me. Are you saying Horn wouldn\'t produce on Marvin\'s level in that Offense? Are you saying that Marvin would out produce Joe in our offense? I don\'t really think there\'s clear justification for those statements, but I am starting to think that justification is not a real big factor for you.
Hey Gumbo, since joe\'s not a big play guy....check out his career average against Marvin\'s (14.6 is more big play thatn 13.2 right?)
Marvin clearly has better numbers, but he\'s been catching balls in one of the most pass happy offenses of our time. He\'s a good route runner with speed and solid hands....but I personally think he\'s marginally better than Horn and not the slam dunk that you think he is.

And by the way.....give me the 10 receivers that are better than Horn. I think your list would be cute.
Moss, TO, and Holt are all better.

But, names like Moose, Mason, Chad Johnson, Bruce, Driver , Walker, Ward , Darrel Jackson......I mean, where are the other 7 who are outright better than Horn?

I think you can easily argue that Horn is top seven and debate whether he\'s top five. I don\'t think alot of experts would put him outside of the top 7-10.

I\'m not suggesting that we pay him for a few more years. I would take him for 2 more years with a decent signing bonus. Some people are just acting like Joe is a plug-in guy who is totally replaceable, and I think that\'s stupid. Not only do I think it\'s stupid, I think it\'s indicitive of not watching/knowing Saints games. Joe has dropped some easy balls, none worse than the Tampa game last year. However, for every drop, he has made 2 really tough catches and showed true grit on the field. Sure, he pops off at the mouth and I can do without that. But, Joe\'s a solid citizen who comes to play every Sunday. His request for top five money is not totally outlandish in today\'s NFL. Look at the money Jordan just got to go to Oakland. Look at what Wistrom got paid. PATHON MADE 2.5 MIL THIS PAST YEAR. TEBUCKY STOLE MONEY FROM THIS TEAM. Throwing a little cheese to a consistent performer who has been a standout on a mediocre team for a few years is not going to ruin our franchise. There are far worse things we can (and will) do.

4saintspirit

I have to say I think people are underestimating Horn a little bit. He has produced in the last 4 years top numbers in the NFL. I\'m sorry -- but one must have loads of talent to back up his stats. But that doesn\'t mean I want to pay him top 5 money going forward because I don\'t. I wouldn\'t mind having incentives in place to get to a huge payday -- just do not want a large guaranteed bonus. Why not you ask -- because a contract is for playing in the future not the past and unfortunately I think his best years are behind him. Does he have some fire left -- sure enough -- but not enough to support a huge cap hit for years to come.

\"I have a photographic memory -- I just don\'t have any film.\"

GumboBC

yasoon -

As I\'ve already said ... I don\'t care WHO thinks Joe Horn is a top 5 receiver. I don\'t care if you or anyone else thinks Joe Horn is as good as Marvin Harrison.

In fact, you guys could say Joe Horn is one of the top 5 receivers of all time and I couldn\'t really prove you wrong.

You could say Joe Horn and Jerry Rice are about equal. I really couldn\'t prove you wrong.

But, you see .... I\'ve got two eyes and I can see the gap between Joe Horn and the turly elite receivers. That\'s something that doesn\'t show up in stats.

Joe Horn COULD NOT duplicate the success of Mavin Harrison if Joe Horn were with the Colts.

Joe is a very good receiver, but some of you guys need to get real. Some of you guys amaze me. I\'m starting to think some of you are on crack. Put down the pipe

yasoon

Name \'em. I already gave you Holt/TO/Moss. I\'ll give you Harrison. Give me the other 3 that are better than Horn and prove my top seven claim to be nonsense. Give me your top ten.

I don\'t want to get into personal attacks because the mods have already gotten involved in you and BNB. Put \"put down the pipe\" addressed towards one of my posts is getting really close to a personal attack. Especially coming from someone who throws so much rubbish around on this message board. Learn how to conduct an adult argument, poopy pants.

Get real? I don\'t think there is anything in my post that any pro football expert would say is off base or crazy. I know my football. You spoke earlier in the week about Horn\'s inablilty to create big plays, I showed you that Horn has a better career average than Marvin. You ignored that. You ignore the fact that Marvin\'s QB puts the ball right on the money while AB throws 2 or 3 death balls a game.

Clearly your keen eye for the game surpasses mine. But....if you were to take a poll of NFL experts/players, I think you would find Horn in most people\'s top ten since 2000. Thus, saying he is in the top 7 (which is what I said) would be far from crackworthy.

I didn\'t say Pathon/Kennison/Freddie Mitchell were near the top. I said Horn was.

Again....name the guys (other than Holt/Harrison/TO/Moss) that are so much better than Horn. Use your two eyes.

There was nothing in my post that was outlandish. I just think you saying \"grab mike williams and ditch joe\" is a bit simplistic.

And if anyone said that Joe Horn was better than Jerry Rice, that would be outlandish, so that\'s a terrible analogy.

I never even siad that Horn was better than Marvin, just that they were pretty close. There are 2-3 more TDs to go around a game over in Indy vs. New Orleans over the last few years. Marvin has taken full advantage of that and been the best AFC guy. But, you can\'t sell Horn short. It\'s not like this team has a long history of ProBowl receivers. HORN IS, AT WORST, A TOP TEN NFL RECEIVER FOUR YEARS RUNNING. IF YOU DISAGREE GUMBO, YOU DON\'T KNOW YOUR FOOTBALL.

JKool

Billy, if I\'ve got this right, your judgement on Horn is that numbers wise he is as good as guys like Rice or Harrison. However, based on your observations he\'s clearly not as good.

The other group seems to agree, but they saw something different out on the field. BnB cites a particular game where Horn left it all on the feild. Certainly, you\'ll grant in that game, there are few (if any other WRs) who would have sold out like that?

It seems to me, one of two conclusions is inevitable here: how good Joe really is is going to be determined merely on the basis of personal observation (and thus no dispute is possible) OR Joe is an elite WR, just like those other guys. If the conclusion is the first, by all means people can state their opinion, but it certainly won\'t engender agreement. If the conclusion is the second, I suggest that actually ranking these guys will be very hard, since they play on very different teams, with different schemes, coaches, surrounding cast, opponents and so on.

I think the second conclusion is the more likely of the two.

I still think that paying Joe as much as he is asking will have detrimental effects - like encouraging McAllister and Brooks to hold out for more money (which they also think they deserve), make it difficult to sign anymore \"name\" FAs, and make it difficult renegotiate with Grant, Bentley, McAllister, and so on (all of whom are up for new contracts). So, those of you who are in the \"pay Joe\" camp need to make paying him sound plausible to me - given the above problems and our decrease cap space.

PS - please keep comments directed at ideas and arguments and not other members (and especially not their crack habits).

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

Danno

Thats funny!

baronm

trade joe horn to the bears for brian urlacher..then trade howard to the titans for picks and draft a wideout. he\'s a good player but wideouts are a dime a dozen. IMO

yasoon

I am in the \"pay joe within reason\" camp.
My Horn scenario might be a pipe dream, because he probably doesn\'t count on making a big free agent splash in 2 years. (This may be his last shot at big money.) I would like to sign him to a top ten contract for 2-3 years. This is what I would offer him. If he says no, which he probably will, I would let him walk.

My point is twofold: Joe has done alot for the Saints and Joe is not going to be as easy to replace as people are making him sound. That\'s all I\'m saying.

You don\'t break the bank on an aging reciever. It should be more like \"if you want to stay a Saint, we want you here but you need to meet us in the middle\" He has said that he plans to retire and raise children in Hattiesburg and he may be willing to leave a few dollars on the table to stay close by. I don\'t know Joe....he may go to San Fran if they are the highest bidder and not care how far that is from his final destination.

As far as what Brooks wants......he can go elsewhere with that. The other guys mentioned should be retained within reason.

I would feel better letting Horn go if Dante had shown an ability to show anything beyond flashes. Devery hasn\'t seen the field, Pathon was way overpaid and just a solid number 3. Beerman is a spot guy who I love, but a special teamer. Everything else is unknown. There is no easy replacement for Horn and I hope this lingering issue doesn\'t affect the \'05 campaign.

If the money were guaranteed (a la MLB), it would be less of an issue. But....in the NFL guys have to think 2 years ahead contractually.

Maybe we get one last year out of him and release him right as his skills start going down. The only reason I\'ve chimed in on this topic is I think people are making light of Joe\'s achievements and some of the moments he has given us. I never said \"sign Joe no matter what\". I respect Horn for the path he took to the league and the hard work he does on the field. He plays every down hard and helps an average QB look good some days. And without him, this year\'s pro bowl would have been MITCH BERGER wearing the black and gold. Give Horn what we can with an eye to the future...if he plays hardball, it\'s thanks for the memories and Donte becomes our number 1.