FireVenturi

Being modest to prove a point. Prolly bout 10 though

WhoDat

WRONG. The Pats aren\'t a dynasty b/c of their cap management. They are a dynasty b/c of their talent evaluation. They can continually find underrated or journeymen players and \"coach them up\" to overacheive and play great as role players in a system.

On the contrary, and despite early indications, the Saints have proven to be pretty bad at evaluating talent, bringing in the right players, and demonstrating that they even have a system, let alone use players well in them.

My point isn\'t that Howard should be kept at any cost. It never has been despite what Whodi and Billy will tell you. It is simply that Darren Howard is a damn good player at a position that is of great value in the NFL, IMO. Will Smith is still a relative unknown. Maybe he was a flash in the pan, it\'s happened before. Most Saints fans don\'t want to even consider that proposition. They\'re all quite sure he\'ll be a Pro Bowler in a year or two. Nor does anyone want to consider that injuries happen. Grant and Whitehead is far less sexy, isn\'t it?

The point is simple. If the Saints can get Dat Nguyen and a 2nd for Howard, GREAT! If they can get a proven LB somewhere else, great! If they get a 2nd rounder for him, what does that do realistically? The rumors are that the Saints like Smith at QB in the first and Webster at CB in the second. MAYBE they use another 2nd on a LB - and we have a rookie and two sophomores starting at LB - that\'s the huge upgrade for Howard? What if they don\'t draft a LB in the first 2 rounds - a VERY REALISTIC POSSIBILITY - as they have proven for the last 3 years in a row. Then you take a huge strength (DE), and give it away for what? No, I\'ll take a great pass rush next season over a QB who won\'t see the field, a nickel CB and maybe a LB who will play like Watson and Buckwoldt.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

saintz08

Send Howard and Brooks to Frisco for the no.1 overall pick .....

McCarthy gets to run the offense with someone familiar .... xrotflmao:

[Edited on 17/3/2005 by saintz08]

LKelley67

who, my reference to the pats cap management was intended to be the front office overall (vs. the onfield performance). talent evaluation intertwined with cap management is the essence of what they do. yes, they do go after the right players. even that though i would empasize right players at the right price. likewise and in conjunction with that, they let go of any player, regardles of performance, service time, etc. when they will no longer be at the right price. you say howard should not be kept at any price. if $8million is reasonable for a one of three defensive ends rotation to you, could you say what price is too much then? $10million? $12? $16? i am in agreement with you as i pointed out my own lack of faith that even if they do the right thing moving howard, i still have little faith they will make the right moves to make use of that $8million cap room. even so, i cannot say do not do step A of improvement because i think you may not do step B right.

as for as draft pick guesses, that is another discussion.

GumboBC

WhoDat has a good point, but then he gets off in neverland.

The good point WhoDat makes is that Joe Horn is a proven #1 receiver and it would be hard to replace him and still get the same production year in and year out.

However, there\'s a big drop off in talent from Joe Horn when compared to some of the elite receivers in the NFL. Like Marvin Harrison or Terrell Owens. Joe Horn simply isn\'t in that class. All stats aside, Joe Horn doesn\'t deserve top 5 pay at his position.

Also, Joe\'s age must be taken into consideration. At some point Joe\'s prodution will slip dramatically due to his age. That\'s a fact. Joe is in that age range where it becomes more and more of a concern. Simply put, Joe\'s best days are probably behind him. Not saying he\'s washed up just yet .. and he might have a couple of very productive years left. I wouldn\'t go signing him to a 5 or 6 year deal though. Unless it was cap friendly.

On Darren Howard. He\'s a good player. But the problem is, we really don\'t need him. And for the money he costs, it would be better spent on \"key\" areas of need. Such as LB.

Darren\'s role has changed since the drafting of Will Smith. Howard is now a \"specialty\" player and it\'s a luxary more than anything else.

Keeping Darren Howard is only putting off the inevitable. With the needs left on defense ... Keeping Howard would be the wrong move, IMHO.

saintswhodi

I never though i\'d see the day where i\'d agree with Gumbo. Especially against Who, but here it is. Bring your umbrellas, fire and brimstone are coming down. On to the discussion at hand: Who says this: Good Who. We agree. Why are we arguing? Like Kelley said, the cost now is 8 mil for ONE YEAR TO BE IN A ROTATION. Is that any cost? He also wants a 16 mil bonus and a bigger contract than Wistrom\'s for a long term deal. Is that ANY cost? How much would WhoDat pay for a player who has slipped into a rotational mode? I guess 8 mil seems like a good price to pay to a specialist. Ooh boy, that\'ll get us to the Superbowl.So then what, we franchise him AGAIN next year at over 9 mil and try to trade him? Good plan.


Let\'s substitute this with, maybe Howard will get hurt for 8 mil for a year. It\'s happened before. Th elast 2 years as a matter of fact. Good plan.


So in essence, I really don\'t care if we try to get better for BEYOND just next season cause if we lead the league in sacks that should guarantee us a Superbowl ring, you\'ll all see I am right and I will be LMAO!!!!

GumboBC

My umbrella is open..

For the life of me, I just can\'t figure out where WhoDat is coming from on these issues.

First, Darren Howard isn\'t an elite defensive end. Plus, Will Smith is a first round draft pick who showed a lot of promise. Why the hell not play Will Smith? What does WhoDat want to do before we get rid of Howard? Does he want us to get a proven DE like Siemon Rice before he\'ll be happy?

And like saintwhodi said, Howard is costing us a fortune to be a \"role\" player. How many teams have 3 TE that cost so much? And how many of them have a big need for LB like the Saints?

It\'s a no-brainer. Howard is a luxary we cannot afford. The ONLY way we keep Howard is if we can\'t get a trade of equal value. Or close to it. The team simply has too many needs to invest that kind of money in Darren Howard.

And who here thinks Joe Horn deserves to be paid like Marvin Harrison. Because that who Joe said he wants to be paid like. That\'s a FACT.

JKool

Despite limited playing time, Will had 40 tackles and 7.5 sacks. Howard, on the other hand, had 46 tackles and 11 sacks - and started all the games except the 3 he missed.

While I\'ve got to disagree with Billy, I DO think that Howard is among the elite ends, consider this: Grant had 78 tackles and 10.5 sacks and costs less than half of what Howard will cost!

8 million dollars to go throught this again next year, when we have Smith who is nearly equivalent to Howard and Grant who is better at half the price? No thanks.

Consider the Joe Horn dispute: one main question about paying Joe is who is going to replace him. We might be willing to shell out more if there is no quality player to step up. In the Howard case, we know who the guy who will replace him is, and we\'ve seen that guy play... his name is Will Smith.

Finally, we should deal Howard now before he gets hurt again next year, has a year of sh-ty production, or gets one year older. His value is unlikely to be more than it is now (in fact, he is coming off the best year of his career, statistically speaking), ever! Of course, I agree with Who on this: it depends what we\'re going to get for him. A measly second on its own? Yikes. How about Dat and a second? Yes, please.

My umbrella was incinerated.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

WhoDat

This is the root of the dispute. Some people would rather pay a very talented WR (e.g. Donte Stallworth) than a very productive one (Joe Horn). I\'ll take on-field production over potential every day of the week.

Some will argue this, but there\'s really no dispute. Saying that Joe Horn doesn\'t have the talent that Moss and T.O. have can only be justified by things like 40 times and bench presses. A severe differentiation cannot be made based on their STATS (that is WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DID ON THE FIELD), b/c Horn\'s numbers are comparable in every respect.

Hey guys - three offseasons ago the Atlanta Falcons signed a WR with a lot more raw talent than Joe Horn. How\'d that work out for them? Hey, three offseasons ago the Saints drafted a WR with a lot more talent than Horn. How has that worked out?

Who has more physical talent? Aaron Brooks or Tom Brady? Who is a better QB?

If you guys think that talent is more important than production, fine, feel that way. I think that making moves that way is a recipe for disaster.

One last note - there are a lot of people on this board, myself included, who are enamored with the Patriots\' secret to success. They do it by putting guys on the field who are not the MOST TALENTED, but who are the MOST PRODUCTIVE.

You say Joe Horn isn\'t a top 5 talent - I agree. That makes him even more valuable to me. You keep guys who OVERACHIEVE - especially on a team full of underachievers.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

saintswhodi

But you don\'t pay them top 5 money.