Chase Daniel...

burningmetal · 08-24-2017, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

"Not as strong at tackle"? Not even close. And Fontenot was a better center than Goodwin. Drew had better guards, but that is not a wash. That o-line was the best o-line in Saints history. If you want to debate o-lines, that's another thread.

Ok? Who's comparing them?

At this point, I have no idea what your actual point is, but if all of that was meant as a counterpoint to my statement that Drew would've won more SB's had he had that team, are you going to debate that a Drew Brees with an 8th ranked defense would not have taken the Saints to multiple SB's?

I know hope is the last thing to die, but if Drew goes down, people are going to quickly find out how not-so-good many players are in offense.

YOU made the comparison of Drew to Aaron, in a clear sign that the point some of us were discussing had completely escaped you. I simply made a case to counter your statement that Aaron was surrounded with more, and that Drew would have won "back to back to back" SB's.

Drew HAD a top ten defense in 2010, as I just pointed out. How'd that end? We had the 4th ranked defense is Rob Ryan's first year here. How'd that go? Nobody is saying Aaron was a better QB than Drew Brees. You're the only person I see in here who would even make that out to be part of the conversation. But your opinion that Aaron had more to work with doesn't hold much water, in MY opinion.

As for your offensive line comparison; what evidence do you have that Fontenot was better than Goodwin? Because you said so? At best they were about the same, but having watched both of them play, Goodwin appeared more athletic and able to cover more ground. But, I will just call that a wash. Naeole was good, not great. Evans and Nicks were THE two best guards in the entire league when they were here together. Wally Williams, with all due respect to him, just wasn't anywhere near their class.

At tackle, Drew had Jon Stinchcomb, who developed into a pro bowl right tackle, and while he wasn't as good as Turley, he was not a big drop off during his prime years. The only obvious drop off was at left tackle. Drew didn't have anyone like Willie Roaf, but when you look at the totality of what he had at O-line, I think it was easily as good, if not better, than that line of the early 2000's.

We know Drew makes some players look better than they are. But it's been proven if you build your team correctly, you don't HAVE to have an elite QB. So for all the defeatists who don't care about the backup QB, because they think no Drew is "give up" time, I would just like for them to think about these things before they poo poo on everyone who takes a legitimate interest in who our backup will be. Needless to say, we'd all much rather have Drew in the equation.

spkb25 · 08-24-2017, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Seer1

Wasn't '10 our year without a running back?

OMG YES...EVERYONE WAS HURT. That was how we lost to Seattle who went into the playoffs with 7 wins

Tobias-Reiper · 08-24-2017, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

YOU made the comparison of Drew to Aaron

I did not do such a thing. I was comparing the teams, not the QB's,

in a clear sign that the point some of us were discussing had completely escaped you.

I wasn't trying to jump into whatever you were discussing. I specifically responded to a point Beastmode made.

Drew HAD a top ten defense in 2010,How'd that end? We had the 4th ranked defense is Rob Ryan's first year here. How'd that go?

If I remember correctly, Seattle and Marshawn Lynch ran all over that alleged 4th ranked defense, and scored 41 points, including a run at the tail end of the game that came to epitomize "beastmode" and is now part of every highlight rushing reel ever.

Nobody is saying Aaron was a better QB than Drew Brees. You're the only person I see in here who would even make that out to be part of the conversation.

And yet, I didn't. Again, I was comparing the TEAMS, not the QB's.

But your opinion that Aaron had more to work with doesn't hold much water, in MY opinion.

And again with Aaron.. whatever...

As for your offensive line comparison;

It's just a theory

Tobias-Reiper · 08-24-2017, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by spkb25

OMG YES...EVERYONE WAS HURT. That was how we lost to Seattle who went into the playoffs with 7 wins

Not really. The score was 36-41. Saints lost because they couldn't stop the Hawks.

spkb25 · 08-24-2017, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

Not really. The score was 36-41. Saints lost because they couldn't stop the Hawks.

We lost because we were one dimensional and couldn't run the ball. We out gained the Seahawks in total yards and had more first downs. We couldn't run the ball at all. We led early in that game, and I remember Julius jones inside the 10 maybe inside the 5 yard line fumbling the ball.

Lynch did put a beating on us that day but we still out gained them in total yards, first downs, time of possession.. Bush got hurt early in that game and the only running back we had left was Julius Jones. Pretty sure we drafted Ingram and signed Sproles after that season because of it

Seer1 · 08-24-2017, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by spkb25

We lost because we were one dimensional and couldn't run the ball. We out gained the Seahawks in total yards and had more first downs. We couldn't run the ball at all. We led early in that game, and I remember Julius jones inside the 10 maybe inside the 5 yard line fumbling the ball.

Lynch did put a beating on us that day but we still out gained them in total yards, first downs, time of possession.. Bush got hurt early in that game and the only running back we had left was Julius Jones. Pretty sure we drafted Ingram and signed Sproles after that season because of it

Exactly! That season was more frustrating to me than the past 7-9ers. We couldn't find a RB who would last a game much less the season. By the end I think we were putting in former players from old age homes around the country and when we ran out of those, they were putting in busts of players someone was hijacking from the hall of fame.

burningmetal · 08-24-2017, 09:23 PM

.

burningmetal · 08-24-2017, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

I did not do such a thing. I was comparing the teams, not the QB's,

I wasn't trying to jump into whatever you were discussing. I specifically responded to a point Beastmode made.

If I remember correctly, Seattle and Marshawn Lynch ran all over that alleged 4th ranked defense, and scored 41 points, including a run at the tail end of the game that came to epitomize "beastmode" and is now part of every highlight rushing reel ever.

And yet, I didn't. Again, I was comparing the TEAMS, not the QB's.

And again with Aaron.. whatever...

It's just a theory

When you said Drew would have won back to back to back SB's with the team Aaron had you were absolutely, 100%, telling us that Drew is a better QB. Which is like saying that it's better to swim in water than to swim in lava. You can't say that you were just comparing teams when you are saying that one QB would win three SB's with the same team another QB won zero with. And Neither I nor Beastmode were suggesting that because Aaron had less to work with, that Drew has somehow accomplished less than Aaron because Drew's had more talent around him.

It is unquestionable that Drew has made some average players look very good. But he has certainly played with better overall talent than what Brooks had.

I was merely making that point to you, as well as shooting down the myth that those early 2000's teams would have been a dynasty with Drew at the helm. Would they have been better? Sure. But history has told us that Drew and a top ten defense do not equal automatic championships.

As for Marshawn Lynch and his "beastmode" performance, he didn't do much of anything until that last run, when it was OBVIOUS the Saints were trying to strip the football and had ZERO interest in tackling him. To tackle him and NOT force a turnover would have effectively ended the game, whereas we ended up being able to score and have an opportunity for an onside kick at the end. Lynch had 18 carries for 64 yards and no TD's before that play... Not exactly beastly, was it?

No, our defense wasn't good that day, overall, but the Seahawks defense was bad all year long. Doesn't it seem like Drew Brees should have been able to outduel Matt Hasselbeck and his 7-9 team? Not that Drew lost that game, but if you're going to say player (X) would win back to back to back championships with a top 10 defense, then I want to see the proof, and I don't want to hear the excuses. When you make definitive and hyperbolic statements like the one above, then you don't leave room for "yeah, but". And what was the excuse for us putting up 15 points on the Seahawks in the second go around in the playoffs, in '13, when we had a defense that was #4 overall and #7 in points against? That defense kept us in that playoff game.

Some things aren't as cut and dry as you make it seem. And yes, "again with Aaron", because you made a statement about Aaron, in response to beastmode. Where's the hang up on that? His name is perfectly relevant considering he was a central piece of the discussion. Anything for you to disagree with me, I suppose.

Tobias-Reiper · 08-25-2017, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

When you said Drew would have won back to back to back SB's with the team Aaron had you were absolutely, 100%,

Whatever, dude.

I replied to Beastmode's comment about how good the teams were. If you want to read something else, be my guest.

Tobias-Reiper · 08-25-2017, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by spkb25

We lost because we were one dimensional and couldn't run the ball.

I don't know about that. One dimensional or not, the Saints scored 36 points, and lost by 5.

08-24-2017, 04:49 PM	#41
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,906 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Chase Daniel... Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper "Not as strong at tackle"? Not even close. And Fontenot was a better center than Goodwin. Drew had better guards, but that is not a wash. That o-line was the best o-line in Saints history. If you want to debate o-lines, that's another thread. Ok? Who's comparing them? At this point, I have no idea what your actual point is, but if all of that was meant as a counterpoint to my statement that Drew would've won more SB's had he had that team, are you going to debate that a Drew Brees with an 8th ranked defense would not have taken the Saints to multiple SB's? I know hope is the last thing to die, but if Drew goes down, people are going to quickly find out how not-so-good many players are in offense. YOU made the comparison of Drew to Aaron, in a clear sign that the point some of us were discussing had completely escaped you. I simply made a case to counter your statement that Aaron was surrounded with more, and that Drew would have won "back to back to back" SB's. Drew HAD a top ten defense in 2010, as I just pointed out. How'd that end? We had the 4th ranked defense is Rob Ryan's first year here. How'd that go? Nobody is saying Aaron was a better QB than Drew Brees. You're the only person I see in here who would even make that out to be part of the conversation. But your opinion that Aaron had more to work with doesn't hold much water, in MY opinion. As for your offensive line comparison; what evidence do you have that Fontenot was better than Goodwin? Because you said so? At best they were about the same, but having watched both of them play, Goodwin appeared more athletic and able to cover more ground. But, I will just call that a wash. Naeole was good, not great. Evans and Nicks were THE two best guards in the entire league when they were here together. Wally Williams, with all due respect to him, just wasn't anywhere near their class. At tackle, Drew had Jon Stinchcomb, who developed into a pro bowl right tackle, and while he wasn't as good as Turley, he was not a big drop off during his prime years. The only obvious drop off was at left tackle. Drew didn't have anyone like Willie Roaf, but when you look at the totality of what he had at O-line, I think it was easily as good, if not better, than that line of the early 2000's. We know Drew makes some players look better than they are. But it's been proven if you build your team correctly, you don't HAVE to have an elite QB. So for all the defeatists who don't care about the backup QB, because they think no Drew is "give up" time, I would just like for them to think about these things before they poo poo on everyone who takes a legitimate interest in who our backup will be. Needless to say, we'd all much rather have Drew in the equation.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

08-24-2017, 05:06 PM	#42
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,057	Re: Chase Daniel... Originally Posted by Seer1 Wasn't '10 our year without a running back? OMG YES...EVERYONE WAS HURT. That was how we lost to Seattle who went into the playoffs with 7 wins

08-24-2017, 06:50 PM	#43
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: Chase Daniel... Originally Posted by burningmetal YOU made the comparison of Drew to Aaron I did not do such a thing. I was comparing the teams, not the QB's, in a clear sign that the point some of us were discussing had completely escaped you. I wasn't trying to jump into whatever you were discussing. I specifically responded to a point Beastmode made. Drew HAD a top ten defense in 2010,How'd that end? We had the 4th ranked defense is Rob Ryan's first year here. How'd that go? If I remember correctly, Seattle and Marshawn Lynch ran all over that alleged 4th ranked defense, and scored 41 points, including a run at the tail end of the game that came to epitomize "beastmode" and is now part of every highlight rushing reel ever. Nobody is saying Aaron was a better QB than Drew Brees. You're the only person I see in here who would even make that out to be part of the conversation. And yet, I didn't. Again, I was comparing the TEAMS, not the QB's. But your opinion that Aaron had more to work with doesn't hold much water, in MY opinion. And again with Aaron.. whatever... As for your offensive line comparison; It's just a theory
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

08-24-2017, 06:52 PM	#44
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: Chase Daniel... Originally Posted by spkb25 OMG YES...EVERYONE WAS HURT. That was how we lost to Seattle who went into the playoffs with 7 wins Not really. The score was 36-41. Saints lost because they couldn't stop the Hawks.

08-24-2017, 07:17 PM	#45
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,057	Re: Chase Daniel... Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper Not really. The score was 36-41. Saints lost because they couldn't stop the Hawks. We lost because we were one dimensional and couldn't run the ball. We out gained the Seahawks in total yards and had more first downs. We couldn't run the ball at all. We led early in that game, and I remember Julius jones inside the 10 maybe inside the 5 yard line fumbling the ball. Lynch did put a beating on us that day but we still out gained them in total yards, first downs, time of possession.. Bush got hurt early in that game and the only running back we had left was Julius Jones. Pretty sure we drafted Ingram and signed Sproles after that season because of it
	Your team stinks

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08-24-2017, 08:51 PM	#46
Seer1 Site Donor Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Bayou Bayfield CO Posts: 4,722	Re: Chase Daniel... Originally Posted by spkb25 We lost because we were one dimensional and couldn't run the ball. We out gained the Seahawks in total yards and had more first downs. We couldn't run the ball at all. We led early in that game, and I remember Julius jones inside the 10 maybe inside the 5 yard line fumbling the ball. Lynch did put a beating on us that day but we still out gained them in total yards, first downs, time of possession.. Bush got hurt early in that game and the only running back we had left was Julius Jones. Pretty sure we drafted Ingram and signed Sproles after that season because of it Exactly! That season was more frustrating to me than the past 7-9ers. We couldn't find a RB who would last a game much less the season. By the end I think we were putting in former players from old age homes around the country and when we ran out of those, they were putting in busts of players someone was hijacking from the hall of fame.

08-24-2017, 09:23 PM	#47
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,906 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Chase Daniel... .
	Last edited by burningmetal; 08-24-2017 at 09:31 PM.. Reason: Double post

08-24-2017, 09:25 PM	#48
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,906 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Chase Daniel... Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper I did not do such a thing. I was comparing the teams, not the QB's, I wasn't trying to jump into whatever you were discussing. I specifically responded to a point Beastmode made. If I remember correctly, Seattle and Marshawn Lynch ran all over that alleged 4th ranked defense, and scored 41 points, including a run at the tail end of the game that came to epitomize "beastmode" and is now part of every highlight rushing reel ever. And yet, I didn't. Again, I was comparing the TEAMS, not the QB's. And again with Aaron.. whatever... It's just a theory When you said Drew would have won back to back to back SB's with the team Aaron had you were absolutely, 100%, telling us that Drew is a better QB. Which is like saying that it's better to swim in water than to swim in lava. You can't say that you were just comparing teams when you are saying that one QB would win three SB's with the same team another QB won zero with. And Neither I nor Beastmode were suggesting that because Aaron had less to work with, that Drew has somehow accomplished less than Aaron because Drew's had more talent around him. It is unquestionable that Drew has made some average players look very good. But he has certainly played with better overall talent than what Brooks had. I was merely making that point to you, as well as shooting down the myth that those early 2000's teams would have been a dynasty with Drew at the helm. Would they have been better? Sure. But history has told us that Drew and a top ten defense do not equal automatic championships. As for Marshawn Lynch and his "beastmode" performance, he didn't do much of anything until that last run, when it was OBVIOUS the Saints were trying to strip the football and had ZERO interest in tackling him. To tackle him and NOT force a turnover would have effectively ended the game, whereas we ended up being able to score and have an opportunity for an onside kick at the end. Lynch had 18 carries for 64 yards and no TD's before that play... Not exactly beastly, was it? No, our defense wasn't good that day, overall, but the Seahawks defense was bad all year long. Doesn't it seem like Drew Brees should have been able to outduel Matt Hasselbeck and his 7-9 team? Not that Drew lost that game, but if you're going to say player (X) would win back to back to back championships with a top 10 defense, then I want to see the proof, and I don't want to hear the excuses. When you make definitive and hyperbolic statements like the one above, then you don't leave room for "yeah, but". And what was the excuse for us putting up 15 points on the Seahawks in the second go around in the playoffs, in '13, when we had a defense that was #4 overall and #7 in points against? That defense kept us in that playoff game. Some things aren't as cut and dry as you make it seem. And yes, "again with Aaron", because you made a statement about Aaron, in response to beastmode. Where's the hang up on that? His name is perfectly relevant considering he was a central piece of the discussion. Anything for you to disagree with me, I suppose.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

08-25-2017, 01:14 AM	#49
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: Chase Daniel... Originally Posted by burningmetal When you said Drew would have won back to back to back SB's with the team Aaron had you were absolutely, 100%, Whatever, dude. I replied to Beastmode's comment about how good the teams were. If you want to read something else, be my guest.

08-25-2017, 01:15 AM	#50
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Re: Chase Daniel... Originally Posted by spkb25 We lost because we were one dimensional and couldn't run the ball. I don't know about that. One dimensional or not, the Saints scored 36 points, and lost by 5.

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