It's time for the Saints to move on from Sean Payton and Drew Brees

burningmetal · 09-19-2017, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by spkb25

I have no idea what Benson will do, but he definitely is or appears not to be in the frame of mind to do what needs doing. I am holding out for a 3 win season if we are going to miss the playoffs again. At least maybe we finally fire SP.

That said, please stop with the fire DA threads. Jesus H Christ...how many people have to be laid out to the alter for SP? We just remade our entire defensive coaching unit to which 90% or more on this board swore was the answer. It does not appear to have been the coaching...so who is left to fire? Who is the main culprit, the common link, the least common denom?

BTW- I remember asking, when people were gushing about the new coaches, if we failed again would people be quick to point out the issue wasn't coaching. Someone replied no, lol. I guess it is true.

Sean is the issue, repeat after me, Sean can no longer win and has lost the team.

It was and is coaching. Some talent issues here and there, but mostly coaching. I liked the hiring of Mike Nolan, and liked bringing back Curtis Johnson. I don't know anything about the defensive line coach they brought in, so that one didn't move me one way or the other.

But I have never been an advocate of Dennis Allen as DC. I don't see anything schematically that is overwhelming, and I surely don't see any discipline. The discipline problem is team wide, which means the head coach isn't getting his message across. Why, I don't know... there clearly seems to be a disconnect, but who knows how that came to be. I have a bunch of theories, but there's no point in getting into that.

Offensively, we have gotten behind the times. It goes to show how quickly things can change in the NFL. Payton thinks he can do the same things he did a few years ago, but people adjust eventually. Great coaches adapt to changing times. Coaches with fancy schemes and no backup plan tend to fade out just like any other trendy thing in life. Remember "the greatest show on turf"? Those Rams offenses were like man landing on Mars; it was so advanced, and it just seemed like no one would ever stop that team. And yet, it was over relatively quickly, and Mike Martz moved on to a couple of different places, but his offense never succeeded again.

This seems to be the track Sean Payton is on. I don't know if he has a second wind in him, but right now it looks like he isn't the type of coach who is ever going to adapt to the ever changing league. I hope I'm wrong for his sake and ours, but if I happen to be right, I would rather this not drag on longer than it needs to.

spkb25 · 09-19-2017, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

It was and is coaching. Some talent issues here and there, but mostly coaching. I liked the hiring of Mike Nolan, and liked bringing back Curtis Johnson. I don't know anything about the defensive line coach they brought in, so that one didn't move me one way or the other.

But I have never been an advocate of Dennis Allen as DC. I don't see anything schematically that is overwhelming, and I surely don't see any discipline. The discipline problem is team wide, which means the head coach isn't getting his message across. Why, I don't know... there clearly seems to be a disconnect, but who knows how that came to be. I have a bunch of theories, but there's no point in getting into that.

Offensively, we have gotten behind the times. It goes to show how quickly things can change in the NFL. Payton thinks he can do the same things he did a few years ago, but people adjust eventually. Great coaches adapt to changing times. Coaches with fancy schemes and no backup plan tend to fade out just like any other trendy thing in life. Remember "the greatest show on turf"? Those Rams offenses were like man landing on Mars; it was so advanced, and it just seemed like no one would ever stop that team. And yet, it was over relatively quickly, and Mike Martz moved on to a couple of different places, but his offense never succeeded again.

This seems to be the track Sean Payton is on. I don't know if he has a second wind in him, but right now it looks like he isn't the type of coach who is ever going to adapt to the ever changing league. I hope I'm wrong for his sake and ours, but if I happen to be right, I would rather this not drag on longer than it needs to.

I agree and I too liked the Curtis signing again and I was glad we let go Vitt. I guess the point I am trying to make is that at some point we cannot keep firing everyone else. Spags went on to be successful again in NY. RR was a terrible signing then and now. DA I had hopes for, but at some point we just can't keep blaming everyone except SP (And I recognize you're not doing that). You're right, it has the feel he has lost the team. When you keep churning the same product year in and year out the HC has to be to blame. How many years does it take to rebuild to become at the very least competitive. We look the same as we have for what is now the fourth year. Matter of fact we look worse this year than last. At least so far. I am sure we will string together some wins and old 7-9 will get us back to his sweet spot and next year it will be cycle and repeat.

I'd rather see what someone else can do. 7-9 and no playoffs is no worse than 3-13 and no playoffs.

dizzle88 · 09-19-2017, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by spkb25

I agree and I too liked the Curtis signing again and I was glad we let go Vitt. I guess the point I am trying to make is that at some point we cannot keep firing everyone else. Spags went on to be successful again in NY. RR was a terrible signing then and now. DA I had hopes for, but at some point we just can't keep blaming everyone except SP (And I recognize you're not doing that). You're right, it has the feel he has lost the team. When you keep churning the same product year in and year out the HC has to be to blame. How many years does it take to rebuild to become at the very least competitive. We look the same as we have for what is now the fourth year. Matter of fact we look worse this year than last. At least so far. I am sure we will string together some wins and old 7-9 will get us back to his sweet spot and next year it will be cycle and repeat.

I'd rather see what someone else can do. 7-9 and no playoffs is no worse than 3-13 and no playoffs.

Any time we've called for SP to be fired the excuses come flying up.
One of the excuses was "who else is there?"

Which once again I'll turn to Oakland for my example, Jack Del rio did sweet f-all in Jacksonville for years due to management that kept his responsibilities in check.

Sean Payton has been given free reign to do whatever he wants and for results, look at the last 4 years.

Now Del Rio went to Oakland, formed a defensive that relies on front 4 pressure centered around Kalil Mack and has Derek Carr who is going to be a stud for years to come.

Now Del Rio has been in Oakland for 3 years I believe, he has turned them from a 3 win a year organisation, to a top 5 team and perennial playoff team.

All that in the time we have continually gone 7-9 and been unable to stop tripping over our own feet.

My main point is, when Oakland signed Del Rio, many fans thought "he wasn't that good in Jacksonville" and look what happened.

No one is irreplaceable, especially Payton.

neugey · 09-19-2017, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

Any time we've called for SP to be fired the excuses come flying up.
One of the excuses was "who else is there?"

Right. I feel like for 3-4 years we resisted firing Payton out of fear. Fear that he would go to another team and be great for someone else.

Decisions made primarily out of fear usually aren't good ones.

burningmetal · 09-19-2017, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by spkb25

I agree and I too liked the Curtis signing again and I was glad we let go Vitt. I guess the point I am trying to make is that at some point we cannot keep firing everyone else. Spags went on to be successful again in NY. RR was a terrible signing then and now. DA I had hopes for, but at some point we just can't keep blaming everyone except SP (And I recognize you're not doing that). You're right, it has the feel he has lost the team. When you keep churning the same product year in and year out the HC has to be to blame. How many years does it take to rebuild to become at the very least competitive. We look the same as we have for what is now the fourth year. Matter of fact we look worse this year than last. At least so far. I am sure we will string together some wins and old 7-9 will get us back to his sweet spot and next year it will be cycle and repeat.

I'd rather see what someone else can do. 7-9 and no playoffs is no worse than 3-13 and no playoffs.

Agreed. Payton and Loomis are the common denominator, as far as I see it, and not much else is likely to work with them in place, given how things have been.

I do think we needed to make the changes we've made, and that DA is not the answer for our defense, but in order to get the right people in place and reinstate the kind of institutional control that you need to have to run a successful organization, it has to start at the top. No question.

09-19-2017, 05:48 AM	#1
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: It's time for the Saints to move on from Sean Payton and Drew Brees Originally Posted by spkb25 I have no idea what Benson will do, but he definitely is or appears not to be in the frame of mind to do what needs doing. I am holding out for a 3 win season if we are going to miss the playoffs again. At least maybe we finally fire SP. That said, please stop with the fire DA threads. Jesus H Christ...how many people have to be laid out to the alter for SP? We just remade our entire defensive coaching unit to which 90% or more on this board swore was the answer. It does not appear to have been the coaching...so who is left to fire? Who is the main culprit, the common link, the least common denom? BTW- I remember asking, when people were gushing about the new coaches, if we failed again would people be quick to point out the issue wasn't coaching. Someone replied no, lol. I guess it is true. Sean is the issue, repeat after me, Sean can no longer win and has lost the team. It was and is coaching. Some talent issues here and there, but mostly coaching. I liked the hiring of Mike Nolan, and liked bringing back Curtis Johnson. I don't know anything about the defensive line coach they brought in, so that one didn't move me one way or the other. But I have never been an advocate of Dennis Allen as DC. I don't see anything schematically that is overwhelming, and I surely don't see any discipline. The discipline problem is team wide, which means the head coach isn't getting his message across. Why, I don't know... there clearly seems to be a disconnect, but who knows how that came to be. I have a bunch of theories, but there's no point in getting into that. Offensively, we have gotten behind the times. It goes to show how quickly things can change in the NFL. Payton thinks he can do the same things he did a few years ago, but people adjust eventually. Great coaches adapt to changing times. Coaches with fancy schemes and no backup plan tend to fade out just like any other trendy thing in life. Remember "the greatest show on turf"? Those Rams offenses were like man landing on Mars; it was so advanced, and it just seemed like no one would ever stop that team. And yet, it was over relatively quickly, and Mike Martz moved on to a couple of different places, but his offense never succeeded again. This seems to be the track Sean Payton is on. I don't know if he has a second wind in him, but right now it looks like he isn't the type of coach who is ever going to adapt to the ever changing league. I hope I'm wrong for his sake and ours, but if I happen to be right, I would rather this not drag on longer than it needs to. spkb25, neugey and Kryptonite like this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

09-19-2017, 06:59 AM	#2
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,145	Re: It's time for the Saints to move on from Sean Payton and Drew Brees Originally Posted by burningmetal It was and is coaching. Some talent issues here and there, but mostly coaching. I liked the hiring of Mike Nolan, and liked bringing back Curtis Johnson. I don't know anything about the defensive line coach they brought in, so that one didn't move me one way or the other. But I have never been an advocate of Dennis Allen as DC. I don't see anything schematically that is overwhelming, and I surely don't see any discipline. The discipline problem is team wide, which means the head coach isn't getting his message across. Why, I don't know... there clearly seems to be a disconnect, but who knows how that came to be. I have a bunch of theories, but there's no point in getting into that. Offensively, we have gotten behind the times. It goes to show how quickly things can change in the NFL. Payton thinks he can do the same things he did a few years ago, but people adjust eventually. Great coaches adapt to changing times. Coaches with fancy schemes and no backup plan tend to fade out just like any other trendy thing in life. Remember "the greatest show on turf"? Those Rams offenses were like man landing on Mars; it was so advanced, and it just seemed like no one would ever stop that team. And yet, it was over relatively quickly, and Mike Martz moved on to a couple of different places, but his offense never succeeded again. This seems to be the track Sean Payton is on. I don't know if he has a second wind in him, but right now it looks like he isn't the type of coach who is ever going to adapt to the ever changing league. I hope I'm wrong for his sake and ours, but if I happen to be right, I would rather this not drag on longer than it needs to. I agree and I too liked the Curtis signing again and I was glad we let go Vitt. I guess the point I am trying to make is that at some point we cannot keep firing everyone else. Spags went on to be successful again in NY. RR was a terrible signing then and now. DA I had hopes for, but at some point we just can't keep blaming everyone except SP (And I recognize you're not doing that). You're right, it has the feel he has lost the team. When you keep churning the same product year in and year out the HC has to be to blame. How many years does it take to rebuild to become at the very least competitive. We look the same as we have for what is now the fourth year. Matter of fact we look worse this year than last. At least so far. I am sure we will string together some wins and old 7-9 will get us back to his sweet spot and next year it will be cycle and repeat. I'd rather see what someone else can do. 7-9 and no playoffs is no worse than 3-13 and no playoffs. burningmetal likes this.
	Your team stinks

09-19-2017, 07:08 AM	#3
dizzle88 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 11,655	Re: It's time for the Saints to move on from Sean Payton and Drew Brees Originally Posted by spkb25 I agree and I too liked the Curtis signing again and I was glad we let go Vitt. I guess the point I am trying to make is that at some point we cannot keep firing everyone else. Spags went on to be successful again in NY. RR was a terrible signing then and now. DA I had hopes for, but at some point we just can't keep blaming everyone except SP (And I recognize you're not doing that). You're right, it has the feel he has lost the team. When you keep churning the same product year in and year out the HC has to be to blame. How many years does it take to rebuild to become at the very least competitive. We look the same as we have for what is now the fourth year. Matter of fact we look worse this year than last. At least so far. I am sure we will string together some wins and old 7-9 will get us back to his sweet spot and next year it will be cycle and repeat. I'd rather see what someone else can do. 7-9 and no playoffs is no worse than 3-13 and no playoffs. Any time we've called for SP to be fired the excuses come flying up. One of the excuses was "who else is there?" Which once again I'll turn to Oakland for my example, Jack Del rio did sweet f-all in Jacksonville for years due to management that kept his responsibilities in check. Sean Payton has been given free reign to do whatever he wants and for results, look at the last 4 years. Now Del Rio went to Oakland, formed a defensive that relies on front 4 pressure centered around Kalil Mack and has Derek Carr who is going to be a stud for years to come. Now Del Rio has been in Oakland for 3 years I believe, he has turned them from a 3 win a year organisation, to a top 5 team and perennial playoff team. All that in the time we have continually gone 7-9 and been unable to stop tripping over our own feet. My main point is, when Oakland signed Del Rio, many fans thought "he wasn't that good in Jacksonville" and look what happened. No one is irreplaceable, especially Payton. spkb25 and rezburna like this.
	Your bonehead creator picked a fine chapter to omit from your memory bank....let me ask you, does a machine like yourself ever experience fear? - Vegeta, DBZ

09-19-2017, 07:17 AM	#4
neugey Hu Dat! Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6,881 Blog Entries: 13	Re: It's time for the Saints to move on from Sean Payton and Drew Brees Originally Posted by dizzle88 Any time we've called for SP to be fired the excuses come flying up. One of the excuses was "who else is there?" Right. I feel like for 3-4 years we resisted firing Payton out of fear. Fear that he would go to another team and be great for someone else. Decisions made primarily out of fear usually aren't good ones. rezburna likes this.

09-19-2017, 10:39 AM	#5
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: It's time for the Saints to move on from Sean Payton and Drew Brees Originally Posted by spkb25 I agree and I too liked the Curtis signing again and I was glad we let go Vitt. I guess the point I am trying to make is that at some point we cannot keep firing everyone else. Spags went on to be successful again in NY. RR was a terrible signing then and now. DA I had hopes for, but at some point we just can't keep blaming everyone except SP (And I recognize you're not doing that). You're right, it has the feel he has lost the team. When you keep churning the same product year in and year out the HC has to be to blame. How many years does it take to rebuild to become at the very least competitive. We look the same as we have for what is now the fourth year. Matter of fact we look worse this year than last. At least so far. I am sure we will string together some wins and old 7-9 will get us back to his sweet spot and next year it will be cycle and repeat. I'd rather see what someone else can do. 7-9 and no playoffs is no worse than 3-13 and no playoffs. Agreed. Payton and Loomis are the common denominator, as far as I see it, and not much else is likely to work with them in place, given how things have been. I do think we needed to make the changes we've made, and that DA is not the answer for our defense, but in order to get the right people in place and reinstate the kind of institutional control that you need to have to run a successful organization, it has to start at the top. No question. spkb25 likes this.

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