Survey: Are you going to watch the Saints this season?

TheOak · 06-30-2020, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

There is no way for an "intellectually" honest person to look at what happened and not come to the conclusion that Drew was shamed and bullied into changing his position.

An intellectually honest person would be objective and recognize that what Drew says is his business alone, and unless it comes from his mouth it is speculation. Even then, since he is a public figure, there is a high probability that what he says is not transparent and more messaging for a greater good.

An intellectually honest person might point out that flag kneeling, opinion tweeting, telling the world you aren't going to do something because of what someone else is going, are all by definition acts of virtue signaling. While the title of all of those acts might be different they are all at their core the same.

That s if intellectual honesty and objectivity are the basis for all of our discussions.

AsylumGuido · 06-30-2020, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by WillMacKenzie

I can only imagine the progress Earth could achieve if only you'd apply your intellectual and highly scientific methods to the basic problems of mankind.

As a former know-it-all myself, I realize what a great annoyance I can be to someone who actually does know it all.

But if we wanted to be intellectually honest, we would not create an informal survey on a Saints super-fan site asking a small handful of invested posters who have dedicated themselves 24/7, years on end (even before your time sir), to painstakingly chronicle every aspect of being a Saints fan...if they would not watch the Saints this year.

There could be a little bias there, but even so, let's give the devil his due.

Oh, by the way, Will, I've been a Saints fan since I discovered the new state I had moved to was getting a team which was to start playing that Fall.

And I'm retired now. I've handed over most those duties of handling basic problems of mankind to others.

Edit: I may, however, do some contract work if compensated appropriately.

K Major · 06-30-2020, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by skymike

Can you imagine how nasty, hateful, and personal this discussion would be, if it were on Site-X ?

Saints report? If so, the posts I've been reading over the last few weeks on this very subject are actually civil and objective.

burningmetal · 06-30-2020, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

An intellectually honest person would be objective and recognize that what Drew says is his business alone, and unless it comes from his mouth it is speculation. Even then, since he is a public figure, there is a high probability that what he says is not transparent and more messaging for a greater good.

An intellectually honest person might point out that flag kneeling, opinion tweeting, telling the world you aren't going to do something because of what someone else is going, are all by definition acts of virtue signaling. While the title of all of those acts might be different they are all at their core the same.

That s if intellectual honesty and objectivity are the basis for all of our discussions.

You seem especially bitter about something, today. Cutting through the usual passive aggressive BS of your post to get to what is apparently your intent to suggest that I'm virtue signaling, allow me, if you are so inclined to indulge me for a moment, to explain to you what Virtue signaling means. And you can look it up yourself, lest you believe I'm making it up. It means to express an opinion or intended action, publicly, so as to demonstrate one's moral goodness, and upstanding character.

Seeing as how I'm not the one who started a thread ASKING people to tell if they will be watching or not, is my response to the question an act of virtue signaling? Did I say I was doing this because I believed it was the morally right thing to do? No, I said I won't be watching because I am disgusted with the league. Nowhere in that statement is there any implication that others are required to follow, or even agree with me, in order to be at "my" level of moral character. I went out of my way earlier in this thread to SPECIFICALLY STATE that I'm not doing this as some act of heroism or personal sacrifice. I said that it was actually an easy decision, because it's not a sacrifice to give up something you no longer love.

I made that clear for the sole purpose that I anticipated responses just like yours. I didn't ask myself if I was going to be watching. That was 'Guido.

Now, what about "intellectual honesty"? You seem to take issue with my use of those terms, but you clearly missed that it was in response to AG's comment of "most people can intellectually separate entertainment from politics". Being that we were on the subject of intellectual reasoning, it seems to me that it does, indeed, take an intellectually dishonest person to believe that Drew Brees just suddenly changed his stance on his own.

Now, you can split hairs and be a grump while telling me that this is mere speculation, but if you're going to follow that logic to it's conclusion then there is no basis for ever trying to reason with anything, or anyone. Because everyone's opinion is their business, and no one can question it, even if there is context that calls something into question. Drew, just like everyone else, is entitled to an opinion. And with that said, it was his opinion that was stomped on, screamed at, cursed at, and relentlessly shamed.

Then, he comes out singing a new tune. I'm not sure what planet you were raised on, but where I come from, men don't handle disagreements like children, and men also don't change their principles in 24 hours or less, unless God gets a hold of them. These were hateful, vitriolic BOYS who got upset, and Drew caved. Is that speculation? I'm sure you'd say so. But the idea of being intellectually honest with one's self is not about whether you know a certain thing for a fact; it's about whether or not it makes any logical sense. For instance: People don't always know when their spouse is cheating on them, but when there is a clear change in behavior that calls into question their honesty, you can either assume that it's perfectly natural (denial; intellectually dishonest) or you can safely presume that something is off.

I know you hate it when I go into detail, and you'll probably roll your eyes until it gives you a headache. Just remember that you made the choice to define words your way, to paint me another way. If you don't wish to read my paragraphs of "boring" information, then I guess you can ignore me. I personally don't mind, one way or another.

AsylumGuido · 06-30-2020, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Now, what about "intellectual honesty"? You seem to take issue with my use of those terms, but you clearly missed that it was in response to AG's comment of "most people can intellectually separate entertainment from politics". Being that we were on the subject of intellectual reasoning, it seems to me that it does, indeed, take an intellectually dishonest person to believe that Drew Brees just suddenly changed his stance on his own.

As I mentioned earlier, the point of this thread was to demonstrate to a couple of members that their claims of their not watching would hurt the NFL's pocketbook was meaningless. You clearly demonstrated you were not one of those two or three.

But, you seemed to call me out in the above. What "seems to you" that it takes "an intellectually dishonest person to believe that Drew Brees just suddenly changed his stance on his own" is in error. As I have also pointed out several times, my stance on kneeling during the anthem was almost identical as that originally stated by Brees in the interview. However, I also explained that after having meaningful, intelligent conversations with several individuals I came to have a different understanding of the true meaning behind the gesture. Now, I completely believe that Brees had the same conversion of thought through the same means, just as he also claimed. I know my own mind and I know I honestly changed my viewpoint.

Did Brees "suddenly change his stance on his own"? No. He never claimed to have nor has anyone else (other than you) claimed he had. He said AFTER discussing the subject with several acquaintances he came to a better understanding of the gesture and its real meaning.

It is actually intellectually dishonest to continue to ignore the explanation given by Brees ... and myself ... on the change of our perspectives. You choose to act like you believe what you wish to believe, supported by no fact, solely because is better fits your agenda.

AsylumGuido · 06-30-2020, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by skymike

lolol... you werent alive during Pink Floyd? Good Lord you are so young... thats so cute.

I knew I'd have some fun w/ you. I used to get called a hippie too, because of my old hair. people assumed i toked. ha! I had to finally poke my supervisor in the side and signal him that he didnt have to protect me from drug tests. unless they were testing for Tennessee Bourbon.

Actually, Mike, I was the one with the long hair kickin' back to Pink Floyd, Yes, The Who, etc. And I would have probably had a problem with one of those tests back in the late '70's.

Beastmode · 06-30-2020, 10:34 PM

I'm woke now. I'll be watching. I finally accepted I was wrong to call Tracy Chapman Buckwheat when I was 15 but I was an immature child. I have grown to appreciate her music. Guilty as charged. Take it or leave it. Time to play some football. Cats in the cradle...all that s!@$ whatever.

skymike · 07-01-2020, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by Beastmode

I'm woke now. I'll be watching. I finally accepted I was wrong to call Tracy Chapman Buckwheat when I was 15 but I was an immature child. I have grown to appreciate her music. Guilty as charged. Take it or leave it. Time to play some football. Cats in the cradle...all that s!@$ whatever.

LOL. Im glad you've embraced your "privilege," Beast.
I wish i could still get into football, for real.

Originally Posted by burningmetal

lol... My friend, I know just what you mean. I've had random people walk up to me in parking lots asking if I had any pot. They were always surprised to learn that my long hair and rather slender frame was not the product of smoking weed.

By the way, I'm probably not as young as you think. Just young enough to escape the trappings of Pink Floyd when they were at their height, but old enough to remember rotary dial phones, Joe Satriani when he had hair, and those strange mullet with a bird nest in the front hairstyles that girls actually thought were stylish.

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Actually, Mike, I was the one with the long hair kickin' back to Pink Floyd, Yes, The Who, etc. And I would have probably had a problem with one of those tests back in the late '70's.

ya durn hippies. both of yous.
Its funny, I often hung out with the "heads" in school. most of them have no idea i didnt partake. wasnt my thing....

burningmetal · 07-01-2020, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by skymike

LOL. Im glad you've embraced your "privilege," Beast.
I wish i could still get into football, for real.
ya durn hippies. both of yous.
Its funny, I often hung out with the "heads" in school. most of them have no idea i didnt partake. wasnt my thing....

I can honestly say I've never been high in my life. Unless climbing trees counts... But I have to admit, I'd probably have thought the same thing everyone else thought when they looked at me. Actually had one particular drunk guy refer to me as "the hippie" about 13 or 14 years ago. Apparently, he hadn't seen long hair on a dude in a long time, and so it didn't matter that I was dressed the opposite of a hippie. Good times.

skymike · 07-01-2020, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

I can honestly say I've never been high in my life. Unless climbing trees counts... But I have to admit, I'd probably have thought the same thing everyone else thought when they looked at me. Actually had one particular drunk guy refer to me as "the hippie" about 13 or 14 years ago. Apparently, he hadn't seen long hair on a dude in a long time, and so it didn't matter that I was dressed the opposite of a hippie. Good times.

ive played in more redneck bars than i care to admit.
the best one i've heard is when a chick told me i must be a "yankee." : I

no clue.

06-30-2020, 08:43 AM	#71
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Survey: Are you going to watch the Saints this season? Originally Posted by burningmetal There is no way for an "intellectually" honest person to look at what happened and not come to the conclusion that Drew was shamed and bullied into changing his position. An intellectually honest person would be objective and recognize that what Drew says is his business alone, and unless it comes from his mouth it is speculation. Even then, since he is a public figure, there is a high probability that what he says is not transparent and more messaging for a greater good. An intellectually honest person might point out that flag kneeling, opinion tweeting, telling the world you aren't going to do something because of what someone else is going, are all by definition acts of virtue signaling. While the title of all of those acts might be different they are all at their core the same. That s if intellectual honesty and objectivity are the basis for all of our discussions. leilung, AsylumGuido, rezburna and 1 others like this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

06-30-2020, 08:57 AM	#72
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,220	Re: Survey: Are you going to watch the Saints this season? Originally Posted by WillMacKenzie I can only imagine the progress Earth could achieve if only you'd apply your intellectual and highly scientific methods to the basic problems of mankind. As a former know-it-all myself, I realize what a great annoyance I can be to someone who actually does know it all. But if we wanted to be intellectually honest, we would not create an informal survey on a Saints super-fan site asking a small handful of invested posters who have dedicated themselves 24/7, years on end (even before your time sir), to painstakingly chronicle every aspect of being a Saints fan...if they would not watch the Saints this year. There could be a little bias there, but even so, let's give the devil his due. Oh, by the way, Will, I've been a Saints fan since I discovered the new state I had moved to was getting a team which was to start playing that Fall. And I'm retired now. I've handed over most those duties of handling basic problems of mankind to others. Edit: I may, however, do some contract work if compensated appropriately. Rugby Saint II likes this.

06-30-2020, 09:35 AM	#73
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Survey: Are you going to watch the Saints this season? Originally Posted by skymike Can you imagine how nasty, hateful, and personal this discussion would be, if it were on Site-X ? Saints report? If so, the posts I've been reading over the last few weeks on this very subject are actually civil and objective.

06-30-2020, 02:37 PM	#74
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Survey: Are you going to watch the Saints this season? Originally Posted by TheOak An intellectually honest person would be objective and recognize that what Drew says is his business alone, and unless it comes from his mouth it is speculation. Even then, since he is a public figure, there is a high probability that what he says is not transparent and more messaging for a greater good. An intellectually honest person might point out that flag kneeling, opinion tweeting, telling the world you aren't going to do something because of what someone else is going, are all by definition acts of virtue signaling. While the title of all of those acts might be different they are all at their core the same. That s if intellectual honesty and objectivity are the basis for all of our discussions. You seem especially bitter about something, today. Cutting through the usual passive aggressive BS of your post to get to what is apparently your intent to suggest that I'm virtue signaling, allow me, if you are so inclined to indulge me for a moment, to explain to you what Virtue signaling means. And you can look it up yourself, lest you believe I'm making it up. It means to express an opinion or intended action, publicly, so as to demonstrate one's moral goodness, and upstanding character. Seeing as how I'm not the one who started a thread ASKING people to tell if they will be watching or not, is my response to the question an act of virtue signaling? Did I say I was doing this because I believed it was the morally right thing to do? No, I said I won't be watching because I am disgusted with the league. Nowhere in that statement is there any implication that others are required to follow, or even agree with me, in order to be at "my" level of moral character. I went out of my way earlier in this thread to SPECIFICALLY STATE that I'm not doing this as some act of heroism or personal sacrifice. I said that it was actually an easy decision, because it's not a sacrifice to give up something you no longer love. I made that clear for the sole purpose that I anticipated responses just like yours. I didn't ask myself if I was going to be watching. That was 'Guido. Now, what about "intellectual honesty"? You seem to take issue with my use of those terms, but you clearly missed that it was in response to AG's comment of "most people can intellectually separate entertainment from politics". Being that we were on the subject of intellectual reasoning, it seems to me that it does, indeed, take an intellectually dishonest person to believe that Drew Brees just suddenly changed his stance on his own. Now, you can split hairs and be a grump while telling me that this is mere speculation, but if you're going to follow that logic to it's conclusion then there is no basis for ever trying to reason with anything, or anyone. Because everyone's opinion is their business, and no one can question it, even if there is context that calls something into question. Drew, just like everyone else, is entitled to an opinion. And with that said, it was his opinion that was stomped on, screamed at, cursed at, and relentlessly shamed. Then, he comes out singing a new tune. I'm not sure what planet you were raised on, but where I come from, men don't handle disagreements like children, and men also don't change their principles in 24 hours or less, unless God gets a hold of them. These were hateful, vitriolic BOYS who got upset, and Drew caved. Is that speculation? I'm sure you'd say so. But the idea of being intellectually honest with one's self is not about whether you know a certain thing for a fact; it's about whether or not it makes any logical sense. For instance: People don't always know when their spouse is cheating on them, but when there is a clear change in behavior that calls into question their honesty, you can either assume that it's perfectly natural (denial; intellectually dishonest) or you can safely presume that something is off. I know you hate it when I go into detail, and you'll probably roll your eyes until it gives you a headache. Just remember that you made the choice to define words your way, to paint me another way. If you don't wish to read my paragraphs of "boring" information, then I guess you can ignore me. I personally don't mind, one way or another.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

06-30-2020, 04:23 PM	#75
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,220	Re: Survey: Are you going to watch the Saints this season? Originally Posted by burningmetal Now, what about "intellectual honesty"? You seem to take issue with my use of those terms, but you clearly missed that it was in response to AG's comment of "most people can intellectually separate entertainment from politics". Being that we were on the subject of intellectual reasoning, it seems to me that it does, indeed, take an intellectually dishonest person to believe that Drew Brees just suddenly changed his stance on his own. As I mentioned earlier, the point of this thread was to demonstrate to a couple of members that their claims of their not watching would hurt the NFL's pocketbook was meaningless. You clearly demonstrated you were not one of those two or three. But, you seemed to call me out in the above. What "seems to you" that it takes "an intellectually dishonest person to believe that Drew Brees just suddenly changed his stance on his own" is in error. As I have also pointed out several times, my stance on kneeling during the anthem was almost identical as that originally stated by Brees in the interview. However, I also explained that after having meaningful, intelligent conversations with several individuals I came to have a different understanding of the true meaning behind the gesture. Now, I completely believe that Brees had the same conversion of thought through the same means, just as he also claimed. I know my own mind and I know I honestly changed my viewpoint. Did Brees "suddenly change his stance on his own"? No. He never claimed to have nor has anyone else (other than you) claimed he had. He said AFTER discussing the subject with several acquaintances he came to a better understanding of the gesture and its real meaning. It is actually intellectually dishonest to continue to ignore the explanation given by Brees ... and myself ... on the change of our perspectives. You choose to act like you believe what you wish to believe, supported by no fact, solely because is better fits your agenda.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

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06-30-2020, 04:44 PM	#76
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,220	Re: Survey: Are you going to watch the Saints this season? Originally Posted by skymike lolol... you werent alive during Pink Floyd? Good Lord you are so young... thats so cute. I knew I'd have some fun w/ you. I used to get called a hippie too, because of my old hair. people assumed i toked. ha! I had to finally poke my supervisor in the side and signal him that he didnt have to protect me from drug tests. unless they were testing for Tennessee Bourbon. Actually, Mike, I was the one with the long hair kickin' back to Pink Floyd, Yes, The Who, etc. And I would have probably had a problem with one of those tests back in the late '70's. skymike and Rugby Saint II like this.

06-30-2020, 10:34 PM	#77
Beastmode 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 9,126	Re: Survey: Are you going to watch the Saints this season? I'm woke now. I'll be watching. I finally accepted I was wrong to call Tracy Chapman Buckwheat when I was 15 but I was an immature child. I have grown to appreciate her music. Guilty as charged. Take it or leave it. Time to play some football. Cats in the cradle...all that s!@$ whatever. skymike and Rugby Saint II like this.
Beastmode 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 9,126

07-01-2020, 07:21 AM	#78
skymike E. Side Cholo Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: The Barrio, H-town Posts: 6,089	Re: Survey: Are you going to watch the Saints this season? Originally Posted by Beastmode I'm woke now. I'll be watching. I finally accepted I was wrong to call Tracy Chapman Buckwheat when I was 15 but I was an immature child. I have grown to appreciate her music. Guilty as charged. Take it or leave it. Time to play some football. Cats in the cradle...all that s!@$ whatever. LOL. Im glad you've embraced your "privilege," Beast. I wish i could still get into football, for real. Originally Posted by burningmetal lol... My friend, I know just what you mean. I've had random people walk up to me in parking lots asking if I had any pot. They were always surprised to learn that my long hair and rather slender frame was not the product of smoking weed. By the way, I'm probably not as young as you think. Just young enough to escape the trappings of Pink Floyd when they were at their height, but old enough to remember rotary dial phones, Joe Satriani when he had hair, and those strange mullet with a bird nest in the front hairstyles that girls actually thought were stylish. Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Actually, Mike, I was the one with the long hair kickin' back to Pink Floyd, Yes, The Who, etc. And I would have probably had a problem with one of those tests back in the late '70's. ya durn hippies. both of yous. Its funny, I often hung out with the "heads" in school. most of them have no idea i didnt partake. wasnt my thing.... burningmetal likes this.

07-01-2020, 07:35 AM	#79
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Survey: Are you going to watch the Saints this season? Originally Posted by skymike LOL. Im glad you've embraced your "privilege," Beast. I wish i could still get into football, for real. ya durn hippies. both of yous. Its funny, I often hung out with the "heads" in school. most of them have no idea i didnt partake. wasnt my thing.... I can honestly say I've never been high in my life. Unless climbing trees counts... But I have to admit, I'd probably have thought the same thing everyone else thought when they looked at me. Actually had one particular drunk guy refer to me as "the hippie" about 13 or 14 years ago. Apparently, he hadn't seen long hair on a dude in a long time, and so it didn't matter that I was dressed the opposite of a hippie. Good times. skymike likes this.

07-01-2020, 07:44 AM	#80
skymike E. Side Cholo Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: The Barrio, H-town Posts: 6,089	Re: Survey: Are you going to watch the Saints this season? Originally Posted by burningmetal I can honestly say I've never been high in my life. Unless climbing trees counts... But I have to admit, I'd probably have thought the same thing everyone else thought when they looked at me. Actually had one particular drunk guy refer to me as "the hippie" about 13 or 14 years ago. Apparently, he hadn't seen long hair on a dude in a long time, and so it didn't matter that I was dressed the opposite of a hippie. Good times. ive played in more redneck bars than i care to admit. the best one i've heard is when a chick told me i must be a "yankee." : I no clue. Beastmode likes this.