Offense looks great even without star receivers, the Defense looks like ****

Thirty3 · 10-27-2020, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by WW_Who_Dat

Rez I agree that our run defense is doing the job game in game out. What in your opinion is causing the problems in the secondary, is it the Safety play, Williams seems to be out of position most of the time and bites on dropping down to mid level out route coverage allowing the center of the field to be wide open. Malcom Jenkins makes some flash plays but he has been weak covering TE’s exactly what he was brought in to improve.

I just don’t get all the broken coverages, DA dropping defensive linemen in to secondary coverages .... what is going on in your opinion?

listening to Allen and commentators it seems he has complicated the defense. imho simplify and let the guys play instinctively. Haven't you noticed the guys looking at each other after a play and shrugging - like - wtf where were you or I thought you had him.

papz · 10-27-2020, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Papz,

I totally get it on the players though. If one player regresses, the blame likely falls on the player. If the whole unit regresses, it points toward coaching.

I agree. The coaching has been awlful. Just pointing out it doesn't have to be one or the other.

Rugby Saint II · 10-28-2020, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by rezburna

The shoulder tackles are definitely annoying.

Annoying is an understatement! There are too many words to describe the shoulder tackles. It is

....

blackangold · 10-28-2020, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Dennis Allen's forte with the Saints is the secondary. As Def Coordinator, fix it or find replacements for him and Glenn.

Players gotta make plays. Coaches gotta coach up talent. Its a complete circle.

Allen's name doesn't get mentioned enough for poor performances from this group.

How many DCs are we going to go through only to see them leave and have success on another team?

Our issues... like tackling and not getting PIs are fundamental mistakes made by players on the field. What specifically do you think Allen is doing wrong?

The Dude · 10-28-2020, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by rezburna

Seems like scheme to me. At his age, Jenkins is better playing close to the line of scrimmage like a LB’er. Blitzing...covering backs out of the backfield...spying the QB. Go Nickel. Take Anzalone off the field. Put Jenkins where Anzalone is. Drop CJ back at SS. Put Patrick Robinson in the slot. Go 2 man under with Lattimore trailing the best receiver. 2 man and cover 2 are the same shell, so mix that in too with Jenkins dropping back into the middle of the field instead of a linebacker. It’s overcomplicated if you ask me.

If it’s too complicated then isn’t it’s the coaches job to simplify things? Over complicated is a word that has been thrown around fairly consistently over DA’s tenure as DC. This is coming from players and fans so there must be some truth to it. Back when we didn’t have many talented players in the secondary they were forced to complicate things because our players skill sets were inferior to most other teams offenses. We had to rely on scheme more than physical ability. We now have above average talent all around our secondary. Is there any need for over complication anymore? More about matchups and less about trickery?
Or am I off base here?

K Major · 10-28-2020, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by blackangold

How many DCs are we going to go through only to see them leave and have success on another team?

Our issues... like tackling and not getting PIs are fundamental mistakes made by players on the field. What specifically do you think Allen is doing wrong?

B&G,

See post #10, last sentence.

It keeps happening year after year with this defense. No matter what players we have during that season, the results are the same. At some point the buck stops at Dennis Allen. From bad schemes to not adjusting during the game, we’ve said all of the same things before about him. Pro bowl players come here and become mediocre, 1st round draft picks regress. At this point if he hasn’t even benched anybody to at least set an example, Marcus should be benched.

Lattimore - regression since rookie season.
Williams - see above- has been in DA system 4 years now but still lost in coverage.
MJ - avg player in NO, a start with the Eagles, immediate regression in NO.
PRob - see above
Jenoris - good corner but he's regressed.
Eli - initially he was improvement after leaving NY but regressed in NO.
Ken trash can Crawley - played out of his mind in 2017, only to regress.
PJ Williams - he's a Six Flags roller coast ride.
Devante Harris - TERRIBLE NFL player, but Allen thought he could start

Do you think Bellichick, Tomlin, Harbaugh or Andy Reid would allow poor, repetitive behavior from player(s) this long?

SIMPLIFY the defense & coach these guys up.

blackangold · 10-28-2020, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

B&G,

See post #10, last sentence.

It keeps happening year after year with this defense. No matter what players we have during that season, the results are the same. At some point the buck stops at Dennis Allen. From bad schemes to not adjusting during the game, we’ve said all of the same things before about him. Pro bowl players come here and become mediocre, 1st round draft picks regress. At this point if he hasn’t even benched anybody to at least set an example, Marcus should be benched.

Lattimore - regression since rookie season.
Williams - see above- has been in DA system 4 years now but still lost in coverage.
MJ - avg player in NO, a start with the Eagles, immediate regression in NO.
PRob - see above
Jenoris - good corner but he's regressed.
Eli - initially he was improvement after leaving NY but regressed in NO.
Ken trash can Crawley - played out of his mind in 2017, only to regress.
PJ Williams - he's a Six Flags roller coast ride.
Devante Harris - TERRIBLE NFL player, but Allen thought he could start

Do you think Bellichick, Tomlin, Harbaugh or Andy Reid would allow poor, repetitive behavior from player(s) this long?

SIMPLIFY the defense & coach these guys up.

Is your solution that these players who are all vets need a more simplified defense because they don't understand?
Or
Are you saying all of these players should be benched and they just aren't pulling the trigger?

I guess we aren't taking into account the improvements Allen has made with this team...

Every year since Allen has taken over he has improved the D.
2015- ranked 31st
2016- 27th
2017- 17th
2018- 14th
2019- 11th
2020- so far 7th

Think about that we are ranked 7th right now, but 24th in points... you know why? Players giving penalty yards at a crazy rate (worst in the league). Is Allen coaching players to give up penalty yards?

My point of view- our locker-room is cancerous and that is allowing sloppy undisciplined play to occur because players aren't taking lead and captains in the locker-room aren't holding each other accountable.

AsylumGuido · 10-28-2020, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by blackangold

Is your solution that these players who are all vets need a more simplified defense because they don't understand?
Or
Are you saying all of these players should be benched and they just aren't pulling the trigger?

I guess we aren't taking into account the improvements Allen has made with this team...

Every year since Allen has taken over he has improved the D.
2015- ranked 31st
2016- 27th
2017- 17th
2018- 14th
2019- 11th
2020- so far 7th

Think about that we are ranked 7th right now, but 24th in points... you know why? Players giving penalty yards at a crazy rate (worst in the league). Is Allen coaching players to give up penalty yards?

My point of view- our locker-room is cancerous and that is allowing sloppy undisciplined play to occur because players aren't taking lead and captains in the locker-room aren't holding each other accountable.

When were you able to spend time in the locker room to come to that conclusion? Wouldn't that violate COVID protocols?

K Major · 10-28-2020, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by blackangold

Think about that we are ranked 7th right now, but 24th in points... you know why? Players giving penalty yards at a crazy rate (worst in the league). Is Allen coaching players to give up penalty yards?

7th? LOL .. how can Dennis Allen continuously put our secondary in zone coverage get ranked that high? Ultimately though, it is a results-based league. If the defense cannot improve on the back end, changes need to be considered.

The problem is we don't have very much turnover (J. Jenkins & Baun being the only 2 new players; M. Jenkins played under DA while here the first time) and yet we constantly have guys out of place or making the wrong reads. These guys should know this system by heart and yet they look like they are playing a brand new system every game. SIMPLIFY THE DEFENSE. Get guys on the same page.

That is completely on coaching. If you don't see this, not sure what to tell you.

FinSaint · 10-28-2020, 04:52 PM

Is it Dennis Allen or Aaron Glenn... or both.

Swapping the d-coordinator mid season is troublesome, since the defense isn't bottom of the league.

Maybe a new secondary coach could be a wake-up call even if Glenn's not the reason for the bad secondary performance.

10-27-2020, 05:53 PM	#21
Thirty3 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 1,255	Re: Offense looks great even without star receivers, the Defense looks like ** Originally Posted by WW_Who_Dat** Rez I agree that our run defense is doing the job game in game out. What in your opinion is causing the problems in the secondary, is it the Safety play, Williams seems to be out of position most of the time and bites on dropping down to mid level out route coverage allowing the center of the field to be wide open. Malcom Jenkins makes some flash plays but he has been weak covering TE’s exactly what he was brought in to improve. I just don’t get all the broken coverages, DA dropping defensive linemen in to secondary coverages .... what is going on in your opinion? listening to Allen and commentators it seems he has complicated the defense. imho simplify and let the guys play instinctively. Haven't you noticed the guys looking at each other after a play and shrugging - like - wtf where were you or I thought you had him.
Thirty3 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 1,255

10-27-2020, 05:56 PM	#22
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,744	Re: Offense looks great even without star receivers, the Defense looks like ** Originally Posted by K Major** Papz, I totally get it on the players though. If one player regresses, the blame likely falls on the player. If the whole unit regresses, it points toward coaching. I agree. The coaching has been awlful. Just pointing out it doesn't have to be one or the other.

10-28-2020, 01:24 PM	#23
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,052	Re: Offense looks great even without star receivers, the Defense looks like ** Originally Posted by rezburna** The shoulder tackles are definitely annoying. Annoying is an understatement! There are too many words to describe the shoulder tackles. It is ....

10-28-2020, 01:35 PM	#24
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Re: Offense looks great even without star receivers, the Defense looks like ** Originally Posted by K Major Dennis Allen's forte with the Saints is the secondary. As Def Coordinator, fix it or find replacements for him and** Glenn. Players gotta make plays. Coaches gotta coach up talent. Its a complete circle. Allen's name doesn't get mentioned enough for poor performances from this group. How many DCs are we going to go through only to see them leave and have success on another team? Our issues... like tackling and not getting PIs are fundamental mistakes made by players on the field. What specifically do you think Allen is doing wrong?

10-28-2020, 01:43 PM	#25
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,048	Re: Offense looks great even without star receivers, the Defense looks like ** Originally Posted by rezburna** Seems like scheme to me. At his age, Jenkins is better playing close to the line of scrimmage like a LB’er. Blitzing...covering backs out of the backfield...spying the QB. Go Nickel. Take Anzalone off the field. Put Jenkins where Anzalone is. Drop CJ back at SS. Put Patrick Robinson in the slot. Go 2 man under with Lattimore trailing the best receiver. 2 man and cover 2 are the same shell, so mix that in too with Jenkins dropping back into the middle of the field instead of a linebacker. It’s overcomplicated if you ask me. If it’s too complicated then isn’t it’s the coaches job to simplify things? Over complicated is a word that has been thrown around fairly consistently over DA’s tenure as DC. This is coming from players and fans so there must be some truth to it. Back when we didn’t have many talented players in the secondary they were forced to complicate things because our players skill sets were inferior to most other teams offenses. We had to rely on scheme more than physical ability. We now have above average talent all around our secondary. Is there any need for over complication anymore? More about matchups and less about trickery? Or am I off base here?
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,048	"Where life had no value, death, sometimes, had its price. That is why the bounty killers appeared."

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10-28-2020, 02:13 PM	#26
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Offense looks great even without star receivers, the Defense looks like ** Originally Posted by blackangold** How many DCs are we going to go through only to see them leave and have success on another team? Our issues... like tackling and not getting PIs are fundamental mistakes made by players on the field. What specifically do you think Allen is doing wrong? B&G, See post #10, last sentence. It keeps happening year after year with this defense. No matter what players we have during that season, the results are the same. At some point the buck stops at Dennis Allen. From bad schemes to not adjusting during the game, we’ve said all of the same things before about him. Pro bowl players come here and become mediocre, 1st round draft picks regress. At this point if he hasn’t even benched anybody to at least set an example, Marcus should be benched. Lattimore - regression since rookie season. Williams - see above- has been in DA system 4 years now but still lost in coverage. MJ - avg player in NO, a start with the Eagles, immediate regression in NO. PRob - see above Jenoris - good corner but he's regressed. Eli - initially he was improvement after leaving NY but regressed in NO. Ken trash can Crawley - played out of his mind in 2017, only to regress. PJ Williams - he's a Six Flags roller coast ride. Devante Harris - TERRIBLE NFL player, but Allen thought he could start Do you think Bellichick, Tomlin, Harbaugh or Andy Reid would allow poor, repetitive behavior from player(s) this long? SIMPLIFY the defense & coach these guys up.
	"We're a violent team & a tough team. We find ways to put ourselves in position to win. We just have to WIN". Alvin Kamara

10-28-2020, 04:17 PM	#27
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Re: Offense looks great even without star receivers, the Defense looks like ** Originally Posted by K Major** B&G, See post #10, last sentence. It keeps happening year after year with this defense. No matter what players we have during that season, the results are the same. At some point the buck stops at Dennis Allen. From bad schemes to not adjusting during the game, we’ve said all of the same things before about him. Pro bowl players come here and become mediocre, 1st round draft picks regress. At this point if he hasn’t even benched anybody to at least set an example, Marcus should be benched. Lattimore - regression since rookie season. Williams - see above- has been in DA system 4 years now but still lost in coverage. MJ - avg player in NO, a start with the Eagles, immediate regression in NO. PRob - see above Jenoris - good corner but he's regressed. Eli - initially he was improvement after leaving NY but regressed in NO. Ken trash can Crawley - played out of his mind in 2017, only to regress. PJ Williams - he's a Six Flags roller coast ride. Devante Harris - TERRIBLE NFL player, but Allen thought he could start Do you think Bellichick, Tomlin, Harbaugh or Andy Reid would allow poor, repetitive behavior from player(s) this long? SIMPLIFY the defense & coach these guys up. Is your solution that these players who are all vets need a more simplified defense because they don't understand? Or Are you saying all of these players should be benched and they just aren't pulling the trigger? I guess we aren't taking into account the improvements Allen has made with this team... Every year since Allen has taken over he has improved the D. 2015- ranked 31st 2016- 27th 2017- 17th 2018- 14th 2019- 11th 2020- so far 7th Think about that we are ranked 7th right now, but 24th in points... you know why? Players giving penalty yards at a crazy rate (worst in the league). Is Allen coaching players to give up penalty yards? My point of view- our locker-room is cancerous and that is allowing sloppy undisciplined play to occur because players aren't taking lead and captains in the locker-room aren't holding each other accountable.
	The Saints are 0-42 when running the ball less than 15 times in a game.

10-28-2020, 04:23 PM	#28
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,241	Re: Offense looks great even without star receivers, the Defense looks like ** Originally Posted by blackangold Is your solution that these players who are all vets need a more simplified defense because they don't understand? Or Are you saying all of these players should be benched and they just aren't pulling the trigger? I guess we aren't taking into account the improvements Allen has made with this team... Every year since Allen has taken over he has improved the D. 2015- ranked 31st 2016- 27th 2017- 17th 2018- 14th 2019- 11th 2020- so far 7th Think about that we are ranked 7th right now, but 24th in points... you know why? Players giving penalty yards at a crazy rate (worst in the league). Is Allen coaching players to give up penalty yards? My point of view- our locker-room is cancerous** and that is allowing sloppy undisciplined play to occur because players aren't taking lead and captains in the locker-room aren't holding each other accountable. When were you able to spend time in the locker room to come to that conclusion? Wouldn't that violate COVID protocols?

10-28-2020, 04:35 PM	#29
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Offense looks great even without star receivers, the Defense looks like ** Originally Posted by blackangold** Think about that we are ranked 7th right now, but 24th in points... you know why? Players giving penalty yards at a crazy rate (worst in the league). Is Allen coaching players to give up penalty yards? 7th? LOL .. how can Dennis Allen continuously put our secondary in zone coverage get ranked that high? Ultimately though, it is a results-based league. If the defense cannot improve on the back end, changes need to be considered. The problem is we don't have very much turnover (J. Jenkins & Baun being the only 2 new players; M. Jenkins played under DA while here the first time) and yet we constantly have guys out of place or making the wrong reads. These guys should know this system by heart and yet they look like they are playing a brand new system every game. SIMPLIFY THE DEFENSE. Get guys on the same page. That is completely on coaching. If you don't see this, not sure what to tell you.
	"We're a violent team & a tough team. We find ways to put ourselves in position to win. We just have to WIN". Alvin Kamara

10-28-2020, 04:52 PM	#30
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Offense looks great even without star receivers, the Defense looks like **** Is it Dennis Allen or Aaron Glenn... or both. Swapping the d-coordinator mid season is troublesome, since the defense isn't bottom of the league. Maybe a new secondary coach could be a wake-up call even if Glenn's not the reason for the bad secondary performance. st thomas likes this.