Voluntary Workouts

Boston Saint · 04-24-2021, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

I was referring to my rescue.

So was Rugby 🤣

Boston Saint · 04-24-2021, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

I would agree but... These 1st round draft picks are heavily vetted by many organizations physically, characteristically, and cognitively. There are absolutely zero excuses for making a 1st round draft pick and it being a wash other than process failure (note i said wash, not failure to start year one). If a team is not 90% sure of what they are getting they shouldn't pick in the first round just to splash a headline, it is a waste of resources, value, and screws other rookies in the draft who are ready..

First round draft pics vs starting rookie season is very much a skewed stat and drafting is more an art than inexact science. What the stat fails to account for are teams that draft BPA and not PON and already have a starter which is generally a draft pick with a future season in mind, this is a deliberate pick and has nothing to do with a rookie being able to tie down a spot his first year in the league..

The stat also doesn't account for the type of talent a draft pick has, some of these players have so much raw talent and such an extremely high ceiling it is difficult to pass up but the team drafting them know they have a lot of work to do. First round draft picks being expected to start year 1 is a fan thing, its the fans need for instant gratification and a win now mentality.

We do continue to develop after our teens but its minor development. A 21 year old idiot will generally be a 25 year old idiot in 4 years, while maturation can certainly slow someone down and certainly make them a more thoughtful decision maker, the behavior modification process after the formative years is subject to the law of diminished returns. Have you made a 10, 20, 30 year high school reunion? Not many make dramatic change after 21, spend much time on social media or here reading the fits of 60+ year olds ( I have actually been called a Boomer here so younger isnt exactly better either)?

Good decision makers are rarely made, objectivity is a difficult trait to learn because it requires a person to overcome emotion.

I’m with you Oak. A first round pick should be a contributor to the team. If not, it’s a miss. We can pontificate (fancy word of the day &#128540

about what contribute means, but we are on the same page.

In fact, this goes along with the idea thrown out frequently that an NFL players career is about 4 years. If that was true, the league couldn’t maintain enough players to sustain itself if first round picks didn’t become players.

Rugby Saint II · 04-24-2021, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Is it a well-run team? a well-coached team? teammate chemistry? team scheme?

Yes, all of it is a factor. But when a team invests in a first round pick, that player should still be expected to start right away...

An All-Pro Rookie? Maybe a RB, K, or P has the best shot at it. But they should be able to start, contribute right away...

Day 2 picks should be starters by their second year; they may not be ProBowlers, but they should be competent starters...

Your Day 3 picks are depth or players with obvious talent, but with red flags, whatever they may be...

The fact that teams like the Saints and Patriots, do so well with late round picks or UDFAs says other teams' scouts, personnel folks aren't getting it done...

And there's no excuse, Not with the access they have to resources and information that the general public don't have...

You sir deserve a diploma for graduating with honors from the school of researching everything about the Saints.

AsylumGuido · 04-24-2021, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Is it a well-run team? a well-coached team? teammate chemistry? team scheme?

Yes, all of it is a factor. But when a team invests in a first round pick, that player should still be expected to start right away...

An All-Pro Rookie? Maybe a RB, K, or P has the best shot at it. But they should be able to start, contribute right away...

Day 2 picks should be starters by their second year; they may not be ProBowlers, but they should be competent starters...

Your Day 3 picks are depth or players with obvious talent, but with red flags, whatever they may be...

The fact that teams like the Saints and Patriots, do so well with late round picks or UDFAs says other teams' scouts, personnel folks aren't getting it done...

And there's no excuse, Not with the access they have to resources and information that the general public don't have...

Yet even the best evaluators miss on players at times. Even with all of the resources and information available it is impossible to know exactly how that player is going to adapt to professional ball on and off the field. Does that mean they don't know what they are doing? Hell, no. It simply means with all of their talent and knowledge they cannot read the future. That's why only two out of three players drafted in the first round eventually become regular starters. It's not the fault of the person doing the drafting. It is the fault of the person being drafted. And don't forget, there are players on the team doing their very best to make sure that rookie doesn't take their job.

04-24-2021, 01:07 PM	#61
Boston Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,877	Re: Voluntary Workouts Originally Posted by AsylumGuido I was referring to my rescue. So was Rugby 🤣

04-24-2021, 01:31 PM	#62
Boston Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,877	Re: Voluntary Workouts Originally Posted by TheOak I would agree but... These 1st round draft picks are heavily vetted by many organizations physically, characteristically, and cognitively. There are absolutely zero excuses for making a 1st round draft pick and it being a wash other than process failure (note i said wash, not failure to start year one). If a team is not 90% sure of what they are getting they shouldn't pick in the first round just to splash a headline, it is a waste of resources, value, and screws other rookies in the draft who are ready.. First round draft pics vs starting rookie season is very much a skewed stat and drafting is more an art than inexact science. What the stat fails to account for are teams that draft BPA and not PON and already have a starter which is generally a draft pick with a future season in mind, this is a deliberate pick and has nothing to do with a rookie being able to tie down a spot his first year in the league.. The stat also doesn't account for the type of talent a draft pick has, some of these players have so much raw talent and such an extremely high ceiling it is difficult to pass up but the team drafting them know they have a lot of work to do. First round draft picks being expected to start year 1 is a fan thing, its the fans need for instant gratification and a win now mentality. We do continue to develop after our teens but its minor development. A 21 year old idiot will generally be a 25 year old idiot in 4 years, while maturation can certainly slow someone down and certainly make them a more thoughtful decision maker, the behavior modification process after the formative years is subject to the law of diminished returns. Have you made a 10, 20, 30 year high school reunion? Not many make dramatic change after 21, spend much time on social media or here reading the fits of 60+ year olds ( I have actually been called a Boomer here so younger isnt exactly better either)? Good decision makers are rarely made, objectivity is a difficult trait to learn because it requires a person to overcome emotion. I’m with you Oak. A first round pick should be a contributor to the team. If not, it’s a miss. We can pontificate (fancy word of the day &#128540 about what contribute means, but we are on the same page. In fact, this goes along with the idea thrown out frequently that an NFL players career is about 4 years. If that was true, the league couldn’t maintain enough players to sustain itself if first round picks didn’t become players.

04-24-2021, 01:58 PM	#63
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 23,762	Re: Voluntary Workouts Originally Posted by jeanpierre Is it a well-run team? a well-coached team? teammate chemistry? team scheme? Yes, all of it is a factor. But when a team invests in a first round pick, that player should still be expected to start right away... An All-Pro Rookie? Maybe a RB, K, or P has the best shot at it. But they should be able to start, contribute right away... Day 2 picks should be starters by their second year; they may not be ProBowlers, but they should be competent starters... Your Day 3 picks are depth or players with obvious talent, but with red flags, whatever they may be... The fact that teams like the Saints and Patriots, do so well with late round picks or UDFAs says other teams' scouts, personnel folks aren't getting it done... And there's no excuse, Not with the access they have to resources and information that the general public don't have... You sir deserve a diploma for graduating with honors from the school of researching everything about the Saints.

04-24-2021, 03:23 PM	#64
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,395	Re: Voluntary Workouts Originally Posted by jeanpierre Is it a well-run team? a well-coached team? teammate chemistry? team scheme? Yes, all of it is a factor. But when a team invests in a first round pick, that player should still be expected to start right away... An All-Pro Rookie? Maybe a RB, K, or P has the best shot at it. But they should be able to start, contribute right away... Day 2 picks should be starters by their second year; they may not be ProBowlers, but they should be competent starters... Your Day 3 picks are depth or players with obvious talent, but with red flags, whatever they may be... The fact that teams like the Saints and Patriots, do so well with late round picks or UDFAs says other teams' scouts, personnel folks aren't getting it done... And there's no excuse, Not with the access they have to resources and information that the general public don't have... Yet even the best evaluators miss on players at times. Even with all of the resources and information available it is impossible to know exactly how that player is going to adapt to professional ball on and off the field. Does that mean they don't know what they are doing? Hell, no. It simply means with all of their talent and knowledge they cannot read the future. That's why only two out of three players drafted in the first round eventually become regular starters. It's not the fault of the person doing the drafting. It is the fault of the person being drafted. And don't forget, there are players on the team doing their very best to make sure that rookie doesn't take their job.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

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