Defensive Front Four.

iceshack149 · 07-08-2003, 11:45 PM

Couldn\'t help but to jump in Billy. Can you say Washington Redskins?

WhoDat · 07-09-2003, 07:35 AM

by the way Gator - congrats on breaking the millenium mark! I haven\'t seen you around in a while, so congrats!

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-09-2003, 08:04 AM

WhoDat,

What your saying is that coaching is more responible for what happens on the field in football. I say it\'s the players.

Both are important, but ulitmately, it\'s the players that make the plays not the coaches.

And the coach I left off was Mike Martz.

lumm0x · 07-09-2003, 09:40 AM

Billy,
What you are saying is basically this. An orchestra has a variety of players playing different instruments. Given no conductor and they are asked to use their instincts to play, they will produce a beautiful song. On the flip side, a orchastra that has a conductor and maybe not as elite players that each no their role in a pre-planned song will struggle to make music.

I tell you this: You put 11 men on a football field and ask them to play based on pure instinct and they will spend alot of time bumping into each other and blatantly blowing coverage. Sure they may gel as a unit and begin to pre-determine responsibilities over a long period of time, but without a common ground of scheme knowledge and somone to dictate each individual responsibilities they will downright struggle and get abused. And this doesn\'t even take into account the problems they will face trying to implement defensive adjustments. Each player is more responsible for what occurs in his role when on the field. The coach is more responsible for the combined result of the players efforts. You give me a well coached defense with managable talent and you take a elite talent defense with no coach and I\'d play your team any day.

And I\'ll promise if you asked every head coach, coordinator and positional coach what I just said you will recieve a unanimous vote for a marginal talent well coached defense being consistently effective.

Here\'s another example of how systems are more important than the parts: Donovan McNabb gets hurt last year. The team sees no loss in efficiency or production by plugging in career backup Koy Detmer or first time starter A.J. Feeley. Was it simply because Detmer and Feeley are top notch talent? No it was a system that put them in position to be effective and if they did not have the ability to utilize the system Childress implemented then they wouldn\'t be backups on that team. That\'s how teams continue to be successful when injury happens. It\'s not because the next guy is as talented, it\'s because the system allows for a less talented or experienced player to fill the role and be in placed in position to succeed.

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-09-2003, 09:56 AM

LummOx,

Again, I never said that coaching and the system aren\'t important.

What I am saying is that if you have enough good players on defense you can play any system you want and be successful. As long as you have a decent coach, it would be hard to screw it up.

Now let me give you an anology.

You have a two race cars. The top speed of one is 175 mph and the other is 225 mph. Your racing on an oval track for 500 miles.

You give me the most average of drivers and I give you anyone you want. There is only so much you can do with a slow car. I don\'t want a monkey in my car, just a qualified driver.

Now if you have two cars. The top speed of one is 220 mph and the other is 225 mph, then suddenly the driver becomes very important.

If you think a great coach can take any talent and turn them into a 225 mph race car, you need to rethink your position.

BlackandBlue · 07-09-2003, 10:00 AM

You have a two race cars. The top speed of one is 175 mph and the other is 225 mph. Your racing on an oval track for 500 miles.

You give me the most average of drivers and I give you anyone you want. There is only so much you can do with a slow car. I don\'t want a monkey in my car, just a qualified driver.

Now if you have two cars. The top speed of one is 220 mph and the other is 225 mph, then suddenly the driver becomes very important.

If you think a great coach can take any talent and turn them into a 225 mph race car, you need to rethink your position.

Well, it\'s going to depend on how long that track is from start to finish. There are some oval tracks in nascar that top speed is not a factor.

[Edited on 9/7/2003 by BlackandBlue]

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-09-2003, 10:03 AM

It\'s 500 miles long.

BlackandBlue · 07-09-2003, 10:04 AM

Where do you put a track that is 500 miles long? Is there enough land for something like that?

BillyCarpenter1 · 07-09-2003, 10:05 AM

Iraq

We already have the man power and the epipment over there to do it!!

The Iraq 500.

Genlemen, start your engines.

[Edited on 9/7/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]

lumm0x · 07-09-2003, 10:11 AM

Exactly B&B.

You need the right tool for the right job. A team will better served by playing a marginal talent in position than a great talent out of position. How can you not agree with that. Look at Charlie Clemons...when he played OLB/DE he was pro-bowl caliber. When he played MLB he looked like a clown. Did he suddenly forget how to play football? Did he ask to play MLB? A poor decision was made to put him in position to work against his ability. How come talent didn\'t overcome? His natural football instincts by your arguement should have, after a month, taken over and elevated his game back to that level.

Watch him in Houston this year. I\'ll put my money where my mouth is and say he has a banner season under Capers and Fangio. He may even be pro bowl material again.

By the way, you take your 225 mph dragster and I\'ll take my 170 mph stock car and I\'ll race you on your 500 mile oval track....any day.

[Edited on 9/7/2003 by lumm0x]

07-08-2003, 11:45 PM	#51
iceshack149 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fairbanks, AK Posts: 4,258 Blog Entries: 1	Defensive Front Four. Couldn\'t help but to jump in Billy. Can you say Washington Redskins?

07-09-2003, 07:35 AM	#52
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Defensive Front Four. by the way Gator - congrats on breaking the millenium mark! I haven\'t seen you around in a while, so congrats!
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

07-09-2003, 08:04 AM	#53
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. WhoDat, What your saying is that coaching is more responible for what happens on the field in football. I say it\'s the players. Both are important, but ulitmately, it\'s the players that make the plays not the coaches. And the coach I left off was Mike Martz.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-09-2003, 09:40 AM	#54
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Defensive Front Four. Billy, What you are saying is basically this. An orchestra has a variety of players playing different instruments. Given no conductor and they are asked to use their instincts to play, they will produce a beautiful song. On the flip side, a orchastra that has a conductor and maybe not as elite players that each no their role in a pre-planned song will struggle to make music. I tell you this: You put 11 men on a football field and ask them to play based on pure instinct and they will spend alot of time bumping into each other and blatantly blowing coverage. Sure they may gel as a unit and begin to pre-determine responsibilities over a long period of time, but without a common ground of scheme knowledge and somone to dictate each individual responsibilities they will downright struggle and get abused. And this doesn\'t even take into account the problems they will face trying to implement defensive adjustments. Each player is more responsible for what occurs in his role when on the field. The coach is more responsible for the combined result of the players efforts. You give me a well coached defense with managable talent and you take a elite talent defense with no coach and I\'d play your team any day. And I\'ll promise if you asked every head coach, coordinator and positional coach what I just said you will recieve a unanimous vote for a marginal talent well coached defense being consistently effective. Here\'s another example of how systems are more important than the parts: Donovan McNabb gets hurt last year. The team sees no loss in efficiency or production by plugging in career backup Koy Detmer or first time starter A.J. Feeley. Was it simply because Detmer and Feeley are top notch talent? No it was a system that put them in position to be effective and if they did not have the ability to utilize the system Childress implemented then they wouldn\'t be backups on that team. That\'s how teams continue to be successful when injury happens. It\'s not because the next guy is as talented, it\'s because the system allows for a less talented or experienced player to fill the role and be in placed in position to succeed.

07-09-2003, 09:56 AM	#55
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. LummOx, Again, I never said that coaching and the system aren\'t important. What I am saying is that if you have enough good players on defense you can play any system you want and be successful. As long as you have a decent coach, it would be hard to screw it up. Now let me give you an anology. You have a two race cars. The top speed of one is 175 mph and the other is 225 mph. Your racing on an oval track for 500 miles. You give me the most average of drivers and I give you anyone you want. There is only so much you can do with a slow car. I don\'t want a monkey in my car, just a qualified driver. Now if you have two cars. The top speed of one is 220 mph and the other is 225 mph, then suddenly the driver becomes very important. If you think a great coach can take any talent and turn them into a 225 mph race car, you need to rethink your position.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

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07-09-2003, 10:00 AM	#56
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Defensive Front Four. You have a two race cars. The top speed of one is 175 mph and the other is 225 mph. Your racing on an oval track for 500 miles. You give me the most average of drivers and I give you anyone you want. There is only so much you can do with a slow car. I don\'t want a monkey in my car, just a qualified driver. Now if you have two cars. The top speed of one is 220 mph and the other is 225 mph, then suddenly the driver becomes very important. If you think a great coach can take any talent and turn them into a 225 mph race car, you need to rethink your position. Well, it\'s going to depend on how long that track is from start to finish. There are some oval tracks in nascar that top speed is not a factor. [Edited on 9/7/2003 by BlackandBlue]

07-09-2003, 10:03 AM	#57
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. It\'s 500 miles long.
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-09-2003, 10:04 AM	#58
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Defensive Front Four. Where do you put a track that is 500 miles long? Is there enough land for something like that?

07-09-2003, 10:05 AM	#59
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209	Defensive Front Four. Iraq We already have the man power and the epipment over there to do it!! The Iraq 500. Genlemen, start your engines. [Edited on 9/7/2003 by BillyCarpenter1]
BillyCarpenter1 Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,209

07-09-2003, 10:11 AM	#60
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Defensive Front Four. Exactly B&B. You need the right tool for the right job. A team will better served by playing a marginal talent in position than a great talent out of position. How can you not agree with that. Look at Charlie Clemons...when he played OLB/DE he was pro-bowl caliber. When he played MLB he looked like a clown. Did he suddenly forget how to play football? Did he ask to play MLB? A poor decision was made to put him in position to work against his ability. How come talent didn\'t overcome? His natural football instincts by your arguement should have, after a month, taken over and elevated his game back to that level. Watch him in Houston this year. I\'ll put my money where my mouth is and say he has a banner season under Capers and Fangio. He may even be pro bowl material again. By the way, you take your 225 mph dragster and I\'ll take my 170 mph stock car and I\'ll race you on your 500 mile oval track....any day. [Edited on 9/7/2003 by lumm0x]