Who Thinks Our D-Line Suck Now?

Euphoria · 11-06-2007, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by papz

Agreed... both Grant and Smith have tapped out to their potential.

Next draft...

Draft 3 offensive lineman and 4 DL's. I think that might fix our problem. Actually it won't... we don't have that many high round draft picks. We should explore some trades this coming offseason. Maybe, just maybe, we can get a 3rd rounder for Smith and a 4th for Grant. I know it's still not high enough... but it's better than keeping these overpaid scrubs on our team.

OMG - Papz and I agree!!!

Budsdrinker · 11-06-2007, 01:43 PM

OK I'd like to argue with your theory at the BIG PICTURE.
Here are the net passing yards against the Saints this year and notice the 2 games that we gave up the most yardage is in this 4 game winning streak when teams were trying to play catch up. The key to losing the first 4 were turnovers 12 of them campared to only 4 in the 4 game winning streak. Here are the stats starting with the Colts, yardage then turnovers.
288 3TO, 243 2TO, 186 5TO 1 FOR TD, 155 2TO, 333 1TO, 259 1 TO, 177 1TO, 344 1TO.

Only teams to throw for over 300 yards Seattle and Jacksonville both wins for the Saints.

WhoDat205 · 11-06-2007, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by papz

Agreed... both Grant and Smith have tapped out to their potential.

Next draft...

Draft 3 offensive lineman and 4 DL's. I think that might fix our problem. Actually it won't... we don't have that many high round draft picks. We should explore some trades this coming offseason. Maybe, just maybe, we can get a 3rd rounder for Smith and a 4th for Grant. I know it's still not high enough... but it's better than keeping these overpaid scrubs on our team.

Umm...a 3rd for Smith? 4th for Grant? Is this bizzarro Papz or the real Papz? I have trouble discerning these days. This is a very good D-Line.

The problems with the pass rush are more complex than just saying the D-Line sucks. When you're bringing 4 DLs against 5 OLs and a TE or a RB, then there's never going to be a pass rush. That means you gotta bring guys from other spots starting with LBs and mix in some DBs here and there. That weakens your coverage ability by leaving fewer guys to defend the pass.

The way I see it is Payton and Co. have committed to stopping the run and forcing teams to pass by leaving guys back in coverage and only bringing 4. It's a smart scheme if you think about it. The Saints biggest weapon is the O - the Passing game to be specific - so stop the run and lengthen the game. Give Brees and Co. more time to outscore the opposition.

The one game where you saw a fair amount of blitzing was the seattle game...when we were facing a banged up (washed-up?) Alexander. The pressure was there in that game.

papz · 11-06-2007, 01:48 PM

LOL... I was only being sarcastic!

Turbo Saint · 11-06-2007, 02:17 PM

sounds like euph is calling for us to somehow get glenn dorsey...he's always double teamed

and would be a damn good asset.

Euphoria · 11-06-2007, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Budsdrinker

OK I'd like to argue with your theory at the BIG PICTURE.
Here are the net passing yards against the Saints this year and notice the 2 games that we gave up the most yardage is in this 4 game winning streak when teams were trying to play catch up. The key to losing the first 4 were turnovers 12 of them campared to only 4 in the 4 game winning streak. Here are the stats starting with the Colts, yardage then turnovers.
288 3TO, 243 2TO, 186 5TO 1 FOR TD, 155 2TO, 333 1TO, 259 1 TO, 177 1TO, 344 1TO.

Only teams to throw for over 300 yards Seattle and Jacksonville both wins for the Saints.

Ok but remember you said you wanted to argue. The BIG PICTURE is the D as a whole and what teams are doing to the Saints. Don't take each game seperately average out us compated to other teams in the league. all those yards you posted equates to a ranking of 27th out of 32 teams. Now I aske you is that good or bad??? Do you think teams are coming out passing on us or running the ball??? If your answers are "Yes - Passing". Then you have the big picture and the reason why the Saints D is ranked 21st and that is not good for any championship quality team.

Stats are misleading they don't tell you what teams are doing on offense against us and if you break it down to show only what you want to show fine but its wrong. You have to study the games and the players performance. If say the Colts come out on us and run the ball every play the whole game... never pass the ball that woud rank our pass D as Number 1. Its misleading.

Euphoria · 11-06-2007, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Turbo Saint

sounds like euph is calling for us to somehow get glenn dorsey...he's always double teamed and would be a damn good asset.

Well not yet but he is on my radar but will we have a high enough pick to snag him???

I seriously can be happy with that but any TOP O line man or D linemen and I would be happy. We got to get pressure upfront and we have got to get some blocking (downfield).

You have to command/demand some double teams on the line of scrimmage its the real way you get penatration and blitz going.

WhoDat205 · 11-06-2007, 03:04 PM

Just watched all of J'ville's pass plays from Sunday (up until CBS cut to the Bengals game). There were 4 blitzes:

1. Result was a hurry and an "injury" to Gray.
2. Gray was pressured and sacked, the result was a holding penalty.
3. Hurry, but Gray got it off for a 5 yd gain, result was a 4th down attempt, int, TD.
4. This was a nickle blitz from Craft. Gray saw it, hit the slot on the out for a TD.

Every other play we brought 4 rushers against 6 blockers.

WhoDat205 · 11-06-2007, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Euphoria

Well not yet but he is on my radar but will we have a high enough pick to snag him???

I seriously can be happy with that but any TOP O line man or D linemen and I would be happy. We got to get pressure upfront and we have got to get some blocking (downfield).

You have to command/demand some double teams on the line of scrimmage its the real way you get penatration and blitz going.

Dorsey's out of the question. He's top three and will probably go to MIA or STL. The worst part about that is that MIA will probably take Ryan or Woodson and STL will get GD. That leaves either the Jets or the Falcons getting D-Mac. Consider me a part-time Falcons fan until 12/10.

Now, how can you seriously say that DL and OL are the places we need players? Because of screen passes and pass D? Talk about seeing the "big picture". Who's covering the recievers? Isn't CB a position if dire need? If you want more pressure, what about LB? The only way to blitz is to blitz. Maybe a DT to get ready for HT to retire...maybe, but not in the first round.

As for the OL, they're one of the best in the league, period. Five sack in 8 games - one of which is dubious at best - is outstanding especially if you consider the poor play in the first three games (which can be partially credited to the overly complicated blocking schemes that were later taken out). The only QB's that have been sacked less are Matt Leinart and Kurt Warner who both have 4....and play for the same team. The crazy thing about it is, there's deapth on the line. Strief and Goodwin are quaility backups and who knows how Alleman and Bushrod will turn out. They're young, too. The only one over 28 is Nesbit who's 30.

You can never have too many OL-men, but we need a back-up QB and a power RB just as bad.

Budsdrinker · 11-06-2007, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Euphoria

Ok but remember you said you wanted to argue. The BIG PICTURE is the D as a whole and what teams are doing to the Saints. Don't take each game seperately average out us compated to other teams in the league. all those yards you posted equates to a ranking of 27th out of 32 teams. Now I aske you is that good or bad??? Do you think teams are coming out passing on us or running the ball??? If your answers are "Yes - Passing". Then you have the big picture and the reason why the Saints D is ranked 21st and that is not good for any championship quality team.

Stats are misleading they don't tell you what teams are doing on offense against us and if you break it down to show only what you want to show fine but its wrong. You have to study the games and the players performance. If say the Colts come out on us and run the ball every play the whole game... never pass the ball that woud rank our pass D as Number 1. Its misleading.

My last response to this I promise.
In the 4 losses the Colts were almost perfectly balanced with 29 rushes and 30 passes. The other 3 losses were 32 rush to 16 pass, 34 rush to 26 pass, 28 rush to 19 pass. The major difference was turnovers on offense. The 4 wins which in all the games except Atlanta the opp. was playing catch up and they threw more. 21 rush to 43 pass, 24 rush to 41 pass, 21 rush to 43 pass, 23 rush to 33 pass. Seattle and the 49's threw the most with 43 attempts each with a yard per catch of 6.9 and 3.9 yards per catch respectively. Yes stats can be misleading but the defense isn't that bad and by the way what was the Colt's defense ranked last year?

11-06-2007, 01:18 PM	#41
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Who Thinks Our D-Line Suck Now? Originally Posted by papz Agreed... both Grant and Smith have tapped out to their potential. Next draft... Draft 3 offensive lineman and 4 DL's. I think that might fix our problem. Actually it won't... we don't have that many high round draft picks. We should explore some trades this coming offseason. Maybe, just maybe, we can get a 3rd rounder for Smith and a 4th for Grant. I know it's still not high enough... but it's better than keeping these overpaid scrubs on our team. OMG - Papz and I agree!!!

11-06-2007, 01:43 PM	#42
Budsdrinker A Cajun Transforming TX Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Woodlands, Texas Posts: 2,787	Re: Who Thinks Our D-Line Suck Now? OK I'd like to argue with your theory at the BIG PICTURE. Here are the net passing yards against the Saints this year and notice the 2 games that we gave up the most yardage is in this 4 game winning streak when teams were trying to play catch up. The key to losing the first 4 were turnovers 12 of them campared to only 4 in the 4 game winning streak. Here are the stats starting with the Colts, yardage then turnovers. 288 3TO, 243 2TO, 186 5TO 1 FOR TD, 155 2TO, 333 1TO, 259 1 TO, 177 1TO, 344 1TO. Only teams to throw for over 300 yards Seattle and Jacksonville both wins for the Saints.

11-06-2007, 01:44 PM	#43
WhoDat205 Prediction Pain Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,082 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Who Thinks Our D-Line Suck Now? Originally Posted by papz Agreed... both Grant and Smith have tapped out to their potential. Next draft... Draft 3 offensive lineman and 4 DL's. I think that might fix our problem. Actually it won't... we don't have that many high round draft picks. We should explore some trades this coming offseason. Maybe, just maybe, we can get a 3rd rounder for Smith and a 4th for Grant. I know it's still not high enough... but it's better than keeping these overpaid scrubs on our team. Umm...a 3rd for Smith? 4th for Grant? Is this bizzarro Papz or the real Papz? I have trouble discerning these days. This is a very good D-Line. The problems with the pass rush are more complex than just saying the D-Line sucks. When you're bringing 4 DLs against 5 OLs and a TE or a RB, then there's never going to be a pass rush. That means you gotta bring guys from other spots starting with LBs and mix in some DBs here and there. That weakens your coverage ability by leaving fewer guys to defend the pass. The way I see it is Payton and Co. have committed to stopping the run and forcing teams to pass by leaving guys back in coverage and only bringing 4. It's a smart scheme if you think about it. The Saints biggest weapon is the O - the Passing game to be specific - so stop the run and lengthen the game. Give Brees and Co. more time to outscore the opposition. The one game where you saw a fair amount of blitzing was the seattle game...when we were facing a banged up (washed-up?) Alexander. The pressure was there in that game.
	"defence's personal to allwats double team or watch is over, that one reason why the saints or not any good." - Vador101

11-06-2007, 01:48 PM	#44
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,743	Re: Who Thinks Our D-Line Suck Now? LOL... I was only being sarcastic!

11-06-2007, 02:17 PM	#45
Turbo Saint SoCal Saint Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: OB - San Diego, CA Posts: 726	Re: Who Thinks Our D-Line Suck Now? sounds like euph is calling for us to somehow get glenn dorsey...he's always double teamed and would be a damn good asset.

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11-06-2007, 02:51 PM	#46
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Who Thinks Our D-Line Suck Now? Originally Posted by Budsdrinker OK I'd like to argue with your theory at the BIG PICTURE. Here are the net passing yards against the Saints this year and notice the 2 games that we gave up the most yardage is in this 4 game winning streak when teams were trying to play catch up. The key to losing the first 4 were turnovers 12 of them campared to only 4 in the 4 game winning streak. Here are the stats starting with the Colts, yardage then turnovers. 288 3TO, 243 2TO, 186 5TO 1 FOR TD, 155 2TO, 333 1TO, 259 1 TO, 177 1TO, 344 1TO. Only teams to throw for over 300 yards Seattle and Jacksonville both wins for the Saints. Ok but remember you said you wanted to argue. The BIG PICTURE is the D as a whole and what teams are doing to the Saints. Don't take each game seperately average out us compated to other teams in the league. all those yards you posted equates to a ranking of 27th out of 32 teams. Now I aske you is that good or bad??? Do you think teams are coming out passing on us or running the ball??? If your answers are "Yes - Passing". Then you have the big picture and the reason why the Saints D is ranked 21st and that is not good for any championship quality team. Stats are misleading they don't tell you what teams are doing on offense against us and if you break it down to show only what you want to show fine but its wrong. You have to study the games and the players performance. If say the Colts come out on us and run the ball every play the whole game... never pass the ball that woud rank our pass D as Number 1. Its misleading.
	E U P H O R I A

11-06-2007, 02:55 PM	#47
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Who Thinks Our D-Line Suck Now? Originally Posted by Turbo Saint sounds like euph is calling for us to somehow get glenn dorsey...he's always double teamed and would be a damn good asset. Well not yet but he is on my radar but will we have a high enough pick to snag him??? I seriously can be happy with that but any TOP O line man or D linemen and I would be happy. We got to get pressure upfront and we have got to get some blocking (downfield). You have to command/demand some double teams on the line of scrimmage its the real way you get penatration and blitz going.

11-06-2007, 03:04 PM	#48
WhoDat205 Prediction Pain Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,082 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Who Thinks Our D-Line Suck Now? Just watched all of J'ville's pass plays from Sunday (up until CBS cut to the Bengals game). There were 4 blitzes: 1. Result was a hurry and an "injury" to Gray. 2. Gray was pressured and sacked, the result was a holding penalty. 3. Hurry, but Gray got it off for a 5 yd gain, result was a 4th down attempt, int, TD. 4. This was a nickle blitz from Craft. Gray saw it, hit the slot on the out for a TD. Every other play we brought 4 rushers against 6 blockers.

11-06-2007, 03:52 PM	#49
WhoDat205 Prediction Pain Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,082 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Who Thinks Our D-Line Suck Now? Originally Posted by Euphoria Well not yet but he is on my radar but will we have a high enough pick to snag him??? I seriously can be happy with that but any TOP O line man or D linemen and I would be happy. We got to get pressure upfront and we have got to get some blocking (downfield). You have to command/demand some double teams on the line of scrimmage its the real way you get penatration and blitz going. Dorsey's out of the question. He's top three and will probably go to MIA or STL. The worst part about that is that MIA will probably take Ryan or Woodson and STL will get GD. That leaves either the Jets or the Falcons getting D-Mac. Consider me a part-time Falcons fan until 12/10. Now, how can you seriously say that DL and OL are the places we need players? Because of screen passes and pass D? Talk about seeing the "big picture". Who's covering the recievers? Isn't CB a position if dire need? If you want more pressure, what about LB? The only way to blitz is to blitz. Maybe a DT to get ready for HT to retire...maybe, but not in the first round. As for the OL, they're one of the best in the league, period. Five sack in 8 games - one of which is dubious at best - is outstanding especially if you consider the poor play in the first three games (which can be partially credited to the overly complicated blocking schemes that were later taken out). The only QB's that have been sacked less are Matt Leinart and Kurt Warner who both have 4....and play for the same team. The crazy thing about it is, there's deapth on the line. Strief and Goodwin are quaility backups and who knows how Alleman and Bushrod will turn out. They're young, too. The only one over 28 is Nesbit who's 30. You can never have too many OL-men, but we need a back-up QB and a power RB just as bad.
	"defence's personal to allwats double team or watch is over, that one reason why the saints or not any good." - Vador101

11-06-2007, 03:54 PM	#50
Budsdrinker A Cajun Transforming TX Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Woodlands, Texas Posts: 2,787	Re: Who Thinks Our D-Line Suck Now? Originally Posted by Euphoria Ok but remember you said you wanted to argue. The BIG PICTURE is the D as a whole and what teams are doing to the Saints. Don't take each game seperately average out us compated to other teams in the league. all those yards you posted equates to a ranking of 27th out of 32 teams. Now I aske you is that good or bad??? Do you think teams are coming out passing on us or running the ball??? If your answers are "Yes - Passing". Then you have the big picture and the reason why the Saints D is ranked 21st and that is not good for any championship quality team. Stats are misleading they don't tell you what teams are doing on offense against us and if you break it down to show only what you want to show fine but its wrong. You have to study the games and the players performance. If say the Colts come out on us and run the ball every play the whole game... never pass the ball that woud rank our pass D as Number 1. Its misleading. My last response to this I promise. In the 4 losses the Colts were almost perfectly balanced with 29 rushes and 30 passes. The other 3 losses were 32 rush to 16 pass, 34 rush to 26 pass, 28 rush to 19 pass. The major difference was turnovers on offense. The 4 wins which in all the games except Atlanta the opp. was playing catch up and they threw more. 21 rush to 43 pass, 24 rush to 41 pass, 21 rush to 43 pass, 23 rush to 33 pass. Seattle and the 49's threw the most with 43 attempts each with a yard per catch of 6.9 and 3.9 yards per catch respectively. Yes stats can be misleading but the defense isn't that bad and by the way what was the Colt's defense ranked last year?