GATORMAN RULES

WhoDat · 12-02-2003, 12:23 PM

lumm0x - thank you.

Saintfan - EXPOSED!!!

lumm0x · 12-02-2003, 12:41 PM

Saintsfan, I didn\'t mean to hurt your feelings by questioning your gospel and make you ruffle the feathers. Just to inform you ...we are in a public message board to talk Saints. I don\'t think you have the right to veto people debating a topic until you request their humble opinions. Let me know if I need to PM you before I post?

I\'ll restate the question more clearly then: Do penalties, missed blocks and dropped passes kill drives? If you are looking for a yes or no answer then it is NO. They can, have and will, but they blatantly don\'t. Do turnovers kill drives. It is, and only can be YES. That was the question, and those are the answers. It is not a matter of Aaron Brooks, Bill Parcells, or any other coach, player, or fan. Those are facts.

WhoDat · 12-02-2003, 01:51 PM

I hit \'em high and lumm0x hits \'em low. You can call us \"the new dome patrol\"!

I\'m just glad there\'s one person on this board (actually two, Gator agreed as well) who can face facts without talking about agendas.

Or as Saintfan will probably say, I clearly have a turnover agenda b/c I am trying to single them out as more costly than penalties, turnovers, or missed blocks. The Who Tang Clan clearly has a turnover agenda!! You heard it here first folks.

BillyC · 12-03-2003, 07:23 PM

I\'ll restate the question more clearly then: Do penalties, missed blocks and dropped passes kill drives? If you are looking for a yes or no answer then it is NO. They can, have and will, but they blatantly don\'t. Do turnovers kill drives. It is, and only can be YES. That was the question, and those are the answers. It is not a matter of Aaron Brooks, Bill Parcells, or any other coach, player, or fan. Those are facts.

LummOx --

I think you are fair with your posts but not this one. The fact is that penalties DO kill drives. Your attempt to say that the only things that kill drives are turnovers is RIDICULOS. If you want to get technical, I could say that turnovers don\'t kill drives. What if we fumbled the ball and the very next play the opponent fumbled the ball? We get the ball right back at the same spot and we\'re good to go. Sound ridiculos? Yeah, it does. Just like the argument you are trying to put up.....

WhoDat · 12-03-2003, 07:36 PM

OK Billy, reason and logic haven\'t worked so we\'ll try illustration, OK? See if you can get this:

1. If your offense turns the ball over on any play, can your offense score on the next play? NO. Thus, a turnover kills a drive unquestionably.

2. If your offense commits a penalty, misses a block, or drops a pass on any play other than 4th down can your offense score on the next play? The answer here is YES. So, while these things hurt drives, and CAN kill drives, they DO NO ALWAYS kill a drive. Get it?

Let\'s try it yet another way. How many times this season has the offense...

1. committed a penalty and still picked up a first down on that series?
2. missed a block and still picked up a first down on that series?
3. dropped a pass and still picked up a first down on that series?
4. committed a turnover and still picked up a first down on that series?

Is this really that difficult to understand? Don\'t you own an electronics store? If your customers pay with credit you get the money no matter what from the credit card company right? If they pay with a check you get the money MOST of the time but not ALL of the time, right? Digital vs Analog - digital is absolutely a 1 or a 0. Analog can be anywhere in that range... why is this so difficult for you to understand?

BillyC · 12-03-2003, 07:45 PM

WhoDat --

Look man -- Penalties don\'t kill drives in no uncertain terms like a turnover, but they put offenses in next to impossible odds of picking up a first down. Especially, when they keep putting themselves in those situations. Do they have a chance? You bet. Have penaties caused a team to not pick up a first down and thereby killed drives? You betcha!!

You can argue with that till you are blue in the face but anyone knows that penalties can and have killed drives. Turnovers are INSTANT drive killers and penalties are the silent assassians !!

BillyC · 12-03-2003, 08:56 PM

Hey Billy,

go read the \"Greatest Hits\" thread. PLEASE!!

I read it. Most of the stuff I still feel the same way about. I\'ll go dig up some stuff that WhoDat posted in the past, but right now I don\'t have the energy.

WhoDat · 12-03-2003, 09:10 PM

Oh Billy, don\'t get your panties in a wad about that. It was getting pretty hot in here and everyone needed a laugh. Sorry to have done it at your expense, but you probably make the boldest statements of anyone on this board, so no matter what you\'re going to get burned sometimes. Sorry if I offended you, I just love bustin\' your balls.

On to the topic at hand: You Being Wrong Again.

Look man -- Penalties don\'t kill drives in no uncertain terms like a turnover, but they put offenses in next to impossible odds of picking up a first down. Especially, when they keep putting themselves in those situations. Do they have a chance? You bet. Have penaties caused a team to not pick up a first down and thereby killed drives? You betcha!!

Billy, this was my entire point in the first place. You\'ve just COMPLETELY acknowledged what I was arguing. First and 15 after a false start doesn\'t help a job by any means, but it\'s not THAT bad. First and 20, then a third and 3 that turns into 3rd and 13, well those hurt a lot more. Of course, both ARE surmountable, whereas a 2nd down INT is not.

This all goes back to the original argument, which we all know is always about one thing: Aaron Brooks. This debate originated when I said that AB was very much to blame (albeit not entirely) for the Eagles loss. You claimed that he was not and that the O-line and receivers hurt us more. Clearly, you\'re wrong. We racked up 500 yards in offense, so it\'s not like we weren\'t moving the ball real well, penalties, dropped passes, and all. The loss at Philly was due in LARGE part to the 14 points that the Eagles scored off of Brooks fumbles and the 7 points that the Saints DID NOT score due to one of them. My point was that AB basically single handedly caused a 21 point swing in the game and that hurt us far far far more than all of the penalties, dropped passes, and missed blocks combined. You, of course, disagreed. Go figure.

BillyC · 12-03-2003, 09:22 PM

WhoDat -- Nothing really bothers me on this board. I know it\'s important for you to be right but the facts don\'t support your arguement. You said the penalties DON\'T kill drives. You didn\'t say sometimes they do, Or, it could kill drives. Nope!! You boldly said that \"Penalties don\'t kill drives.\" Now you change it to \" They can kill drives.\"

It doesn\'t matter to me that you THINK you\'re right. It doesn\'t even bother me that you have to change your statement to somehow make yourself appear to be right.

Let me think about your statement(s) again??

Statement # 1 \" Penalties don\'t kill drives !! \"

Statement # 2 \" Penalties CAN kill drives !!\"

Sounds like doble talk to me. It\'s hard to hold an arguement like that. Ya know?

BillyC · 12-03-2003, 09:32 PM

Hindsight is 20/20 Billy. But I can\'t believe you still think Parcells won\'t do well b/c no talent and Tebucky Jones is a ballhawk etc.

C\'mon Billy just admit those statements are way off the map. Seriously it doesn\'t hurt to say you were wrong. Try it. LOL

You\'ve missed a fun week, glad your back. GO TIGERS!

PS: You don\'t have the energy to dig up damaging post by Whodat OR you haven\'t found any while online for the past 2 hrs?

[Edited on 12/4/2003 by gatorman]

I was wrong about Tebucky this year. But, I\'m certainly not ready to label him as a bust.

Parcells has done better than I (and almost everyone expected) but the Cowboys might not make the playoffs and appear to be crashing. Now there can only be 2-reasons that the Cowboys don\'t make the playoffs and that is:

1. Coaching
2. Not enough talent.

If they don\'t make the playoffs, which one of those would you choose.

Like, I said. Parcells won\'t be successful, without the tallent. Now, he has got them to overachieve and he might very well go on to win the Super Bowl.

It\'s good to be back Gator.....

P.S. -- I\'m wrong all the time. Contrary to belief, I\'ve probably admitted it more than anyone else on here.....

12-02-2003, 12:23 PM	#81
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	GATORMAN RULES lumm0x - thank you. Saintfan - EXPOSED!!!
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

12-02-2003, 12:41 PM	#82
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	GATORMAN RULES Saintsfan, I didn\'t mean to hurt your feelings by questioning your gospel and make you ruffle the feathers. Just to inform you ...we are in a public message board to talk Saints. I don\'t think you have the right to veto people debating a topic until you request their humble opinions. Let me know if I need to PM you before I post? I\'ll restate the question more clearly then: Do penalties, missed blocks and dropped passes kill drives? If you are looking for a yes or no answer then it is NO. They can, have and will, but they blatantly don\'t. Do turnovers kill drives. It is, and only can be YES. That was the question, and those are the answers. It is not a matter of Aaron Brooks, Bill Parcells, or any other coach, player, or fan. Those are facts.

12-02-2003, 01:51 PM	#83
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	GATORMAN RULES I hit \'em high and lumm0x hits \'em low. You can call us \"the new dome patrol\"! I\'m just glad there\'s one person on this board (actually two, Gator agreed as well) who can face facts without talking about agendas. Or as Saintfan will probably say, I clearly have a turnover agenda b/c I am trying to single them out as more costly than penalties, turnovers, or missed blocks. The Who Tang Clan clearly has a turnover agenda!! You heard it here first folks.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

12-03-2003, 07:23 PM	#84
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	GATORMAN RULES I\'ll restate the question more clearly then: Do penalties, missed blocks and dropped passes kill drives? If you are looking for a yes or no answer then it is NO. They can, have and will, but they blatantly don\'t. Do turnovers kill drives. It is, and only can be YES. That was the question, and those are the answers. It is not a matter of Aaron Brooks, Bill Parcells, or any other coach, player, or fan. Those are facts. LummOx -- I think you are fair with your posts but not this one. The fact is that penalties DO kill drives. Your attempt to say that the only things that kill drives are turnovers is RIDICULOS. If you want to get technical, I could say that turnovers don\'t kill drives. What if we fumbled the ball and the very next play the opponent fumbled the ball? We get the ball right back at the same spot and we\'re good to go. Sound ridiculos? Yeah, it does. Just like the argument you are trying to put up.....
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-03-2003, 07:36 PM	#85
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	GATORMAN RULES OK Billy, reason and logic haven\'t worked so we\'ll try illustration, OK? See if you can get this: 1. If your offense turns the ball over on any play, can your offense score on the next play? NO. Thus, a turnover kills a drive unquestionably. 2. If your offense commits a penalty, misses a block, or drops a pass on any play other than 4th down can your offense score on the next play? The answer here is YES. So, while these things hurt drives, and CAN kill drives, they DO NO ALWAYS kill a drive. Get it? Let\'s try it yet another way. How many times this season has the offense... 1. committed a penalty and still picked up a first down on that series? 2. missed a block and still picked up a first down on that series? 3. dropped a pass and still picked up a first down on that series? 4. committed a turnover and still picked up a first down on that series? Is this really that difficult to understand? Don\'t you own an electronics store? If your customers pay with credit you get the money no matter what from the credit card company right? If they pay with a check you get the money MOST of the time but not ALL of the time, right? Digital vs Analog - digital is absolutely a 1 or a 0. Analog can be anywhere in that range... why is this so difficult for you to understand?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

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12-03-2003, 07:45 PM	#86
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	GATORMAN RULES WhoDat -- Look man -- Penalties don\'t kill drives in no uncertain terms like a turnover, but they put offenses in next to impossible odds of picking up a first down. Especially, when they keep putting themselves in those situations. Do they have a chance? You bet. Have penaties caused a team to not pick up a first down and thereby killed drives? You betcha!! You can argue with that till you are blue in the face but anyone knows that penalties can and have killed drives. Turnovers are INSTANT drive killers and penalties are the silent assassians !!
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-03-2003, 08:56 PM	#87
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	GATORMAN RULES Hey Billy, go read the \"Greatest Hits\" thread. PLEASE!! I read it. Most of the stuff I still feel the same way about. I\'ll go dig up some stuff that WhoDat posted in the past, but right now I don\'t have the energy.
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-03-2003, 09:10 PM	#88
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	GATORMAN RULES Oh Billy, don\'t get your panties in a wad about that. It was getting pretty hot in here and everyone needed a laugh. Sorry to have done it at your expense, but you probably make the boldest statements of anyone on this board, so no matter what you\'re going to get burned sometimes. Sorry if I offended you, I just love bustin\' your balls. On to the topic at hand: You Being Wrong Again. Look man -- Penalties don\'t kill drives in no uncertain terms like a turnover, but they put offenses in next to impossible odds of picking up a first down. Especially, when they keep putting themselves in those situations. Do they have a chance? You bet. Have penaties caused a team to not pick up a first down and thereby killed drives? You betcha!! Billy, this was my entire point in the first place. You\'ve just COMPLETELY acknowledged what I was arguing. First and 15 after a false start doesn\'t help a job by any means, but it\'s not THAT bad. First and 20, then a third and 3 that turns into 3rd and 13, well those hurt a lot more. Of course, both ARE surmountable, whereas a 2nd down INT is not. This all goes back to the original argument, which we all know is always about one thing: Aaron Brooks. This debate originated when I said that AB was very much to blame (albeit not entirely) for the Eagles loss. You claimed that he was not and that the O-line and receivers hurt us more. Clearly, you\'re wrong. We racked up 500 yards in offense, so it\'s not like we weren\'t moving the ball real well, penalties, dropped passes, and all. The loss at Philly was due in LARGE part to the 14 points that the Eagles scored off of Brooks fumbles and the 7 points that the Saints DID NOT score due to one of them. My point was that AB basically single handedly caused a 21 point swing in the game and that hurt us far far far more than all of the penalties, dropped passes, and missed blocks combined. You, of course, disagreed. Go figure.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

12-03-2003, 09:22 PM	#89
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	GATORMAN RULES WhoDat -- Nothing really bothers me on this board. I know it\'s important for you to be right but the facts don\'t support your arguement. You said the penalties DON\'T kill drives. You didn\'t say sometimes they do, Or, it could kill drives. Nope!! You boldly said that \"Penalties don\'t kill drives.\" Now you change it to \" They can kill drives.\" It doesn\'t matter to me that you THINK you\'re right. It doesn\'t even bother me that you have to change your statement to somehow make yourself appear to be right. Let me think about your statement(s) again?? Statement # 1 \" Penalties don\'t kill drives !! \" Statement # 2 \" Penalties CAN kill drives !!\" Sounds like doble talk to me. It\'s hard to hold an arguement like that. Ya know?
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842

12-03-2003, 09:32 PM	#90
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842	GATORMAN RULES Hindsight is 20/20 Billy. But I can\'t believe you still think Parcells won\'t do well b/c no talent and Tebucky Jones is a ballhawk etc. C\'mon Billy just admit those statements are way off the map. Seriously it doesn\'t hurt to say you were wrong. Try it. LOL You\'ve missed a fun week, glad your back. GO TIGERS! PS: You don\'t have the energy to dig up damaging post by Whodat OR you haven\'t found any while online for the past 2 hrs? [Edited on 12/4/2003 by gatorman] I was wrong about Tebucky this year. But, I\'m certainly not ready to label him as a bust. Parcells has done better than I (and almost everyone expected) but the Cowboys might not make the playoffs and appear to be crashing. Now there can only be 2-reasons that the Cowboys don\'t make the playoffs and that is: 1. Coaching 2. Not enough talent. If they don\'t make the playoffs, which one of those would you choose. Like, I said. Parcells won\'t be successful, without the tallent. Now, he has got them to overachieve and he might very well go on to win the Super Bowl. It\'s good to be back Gator..... P.S. -- I\'m wrong all the time. Contrary to belief, I\'ve probably admitted it more than anyone else on here.....
BillyC Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 842