JKool

Subguy,

I was awaiting a response, but I\'m not sure how to take it now that I\'ve got it.

There are many \"that\"s that I like, to which are you pointing?

Indeed, where else but B&G? Many fun things do go on here. I gotta say, I\'m in favor of it.

GumboBC

Kind of off the subject. But still in the ballpark


The QB position generally gets too much credit and too much blame.(We\'ve all heard that right?) But, it is true. I understand why. It\'s because they touch the \"rock\" every snap.

But, the truth is, they get too much blame and credit. A QB can have a game where he throws the ball 17 times for 125yds/no Td\'s/no ints. and hands the ball off 25 times to a runningback and the running back only goes for 55 yds. You know who\'s gonna get the blame for the loss? The QB of course. But, keep in mind the running back ran the ball 8 more times than the QB passed it. The offensive line will be criticised for not opening holes for the runningback. But the QB, well, he\'s expected to make plays. If he gets sacked, he simply needs to get rid of the ball quicker. Running back looses yardage -- A lineman must have missed his block.

On the other hand - A QB has a great game and he gets all the credit. Football is the ulimate team game!!

Did that make an sense? Oh, well.... I hope it did..

P.S. - There was actually a lot of intelligent debate on this thread. I like THAT.......LOL

subguy

I wish nothing but the best for the Saints with or without AB at the helm. Yes alot of responsibility does fall on the QB. Shouldn\'t it? He and the center are only two offensive players to touch the ball each offensive play. And he sets the play in motion. The whole series of my posts were dedicated to the fact that leadership is underestimated. I think the perception is that the QB is the General. The team has had no one step up actively to be giver of the atta-boy or the ass kick. Deuce silently through hard work has come closest. The team really needs AB to do that aspect of the job. It is just one of the QB\'s many hats. He is the focal point of the huddle, ass kick or atta-boy time. Once again I site Marino.......the definitive manager(CEO) on the field. If the QB is not going to offer praise or criticizm on the field who is the next logical player to do that or do you think there is no need for that individual and it is the coaches job only?

Don't want em to get your goat don't show em where it's hid.

WhoDat

You\'re talking about the difference between management, knowledge, and leadership ability. Leadership is not learned. You cannot learn how to be visionary. You cannot learn how to be a person that others inately trust. Sorry, that is NOT an acquired skill.

Knowledge in a certain area is a requisite for someone to trust in you and follow you. You\'re right, an army platoon would not follow John Elway into battle. HOWEVER, send John Elway and Aaron Brooks to boot camp and I guarantee more soldiers will be willing to follow Elway than Brooks when they get out. Why? B/c Elway has natural leadership ability.

There are three things that you need to be a good leader. Two of those things CAN be learned: knowledge of the subject matter and management ability. The third is inherent in one\'s personality - the fiery Favre, the trustworthy Montana, even the loveable underdog Flutie. These guys have something that is not learned.

Aaron Brooks does not have that thing. He never will. There is no use in arguing this any further, it will never change. Billy, if you cannot see that AB does not have that spark, that X-factor, then I have a hard time believing you truly understand what it means to be a good leader. There IS a difference b/w being a leader - a visionary, a motivator - and being a good manager. AB can be a good manager - and even if he is never a good leader that DOES NOT mean that he will be a bad QB. He will never be great, in my mind, but he can be very successful. He can go to the Pro Bowl, he can take the team to the Super Bowl - but I\'m doubtful you\'ll see Hall of Fame - b/c the great ones have something that AB doesn\'t. Sorry man, that\'s the sad truth.

Now, I will repeat it again. I prefer the less talented but smart, efficient leader over the gifted athlete at QB, but that\'s only personal opinion. There is no reason to think that the Saints cannot win it all with Brooks. Dumber QBs have won it all. Less talented QBs have won it all. Poor leaders have won it all. All that is important to me in \'04 and beyond is that AB helps more than he hurts, and starts earning his top 5 salary. If he has a year this season like he did last, and corrects the fumbling problem, I will be happy with his play all around.

[Edited on 18/5/2004 by WhoDat]

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

JKool

A good point Subguy.

Perhaps, here is another characteristic of of a great leader:
(4) Workman like attitude - this is the guy who means buisness, does his job, and get things done day in and day out (e.g. Duece).

Of course, your point was this: if not the QB, then who should be the leader? Clearly, RB is the next best option, since he is in a position to pull off (1), (2), and (4) of now modified list of leadership characteristics. Since Duece appears to be lacking in (3), a characteristic that seems pretty important, who could it be? Do any other players on our offense have all four characteristics we\'ve noted? Horn? No. He is (1) maybe. (2)? Yes. (3)? Hmmm... I doubt it. (4)? No - he\'s just too much flash and dash. What about one of our OLs? I can\'t think of one that exhibits enough of (1)-(4), but maybe someone else can?

Perhaps this is the reason so many people think QB is the most important for exhibiting leadership: after QB, RB is pretty well the only other player most likely to exhibit traits (1)-(4)? This does however suppose that all four must be embodied in one player, that the coaches cannot supplement a player who has most of these to a good/fair degree, and so on. What do you think?

Billy, I agree that QBs tend to take more heat and more praise than they should. They are treated like pitchers in baseball - they are the ones who get the W/L! Please! How many games are won or lost by a single guy swinging a bat? While it is true that even the greatest RB (with perhaps the exception of Barry Sanders) can\'t get much done without a solid OL, we expect the QB to gun-sling his way past any threat, with no friends in sight, to get us a victory.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

JKool

WhoDat,

I\'m not sure why you think we should just take your word that leadership is not learned. I like your distinction between management and leadership, and I agree that leadership has more to do with personality than it does with things that we standardly think of as learned. However, it is not clear to me that some major part of your personality isn\'t learned.

There are a variety of studies in psychology that show that certain kinds of behavior (body language, certain kinds of phrsases, facial expressions, and even things as simple as remembering peoples\' names) can put people at ease. This seems to indicate if you put some conscious effort into speaking in certain ways, aquiring certain mannerisms, and having a focus on others, you could become a much better leader.

Do you believe: (1) it is impossible for people who study people to discover what this X-factor is, OR (2) even if we uncovered what the X-factor is (and I have to say that it seems to me that it is more than one factor), it would be so inextricably linked to personality that if you didn\'t have it, no amount of training would get it for you? It seems to me you must believe one of those. While the latter seems much more plausible to me, I don\'t think either are true - it seems to me that the best actors of our time can pretend to have traits they don\'t (rather convincingly I might add) from down\'s syndrome to courage on the battle field. If these people can convince me that they are people they are not, then how come someone couldn\'t convince you that you are a leader when you are not.

Furthermore, it is my view that people can become leaders when they were not before simply by \"growing up\". Being immature is a huge impediment to leading that I don\'t see why this alone couldn\'t make a huge difference.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

GumboBC

Everything is learned WhoDat. When a human being is born, he really doesn\'t have a personaltiy to speak of. That personality is DEVELOPED!! Identical twins, with the same genetical make-up, are NOT both equal in the leadership department!! WHY?? Because EVERYTHING is learned!! Or a better word would be DEVELOPED!!

What you are suggested is that leadership is a \"birth right.\" Well, it\'s not. EVERYONE has the ABILITY to lead. To be a leader you only need ONE person to follow you. There are some that are BETTER leaders. Adolf Hitler was a masterful leader. He got MILLIONS to follow him. For the wrong reasons of course, but he was a masterful leader.

None-the-less, leadership is developed. It\'s just like being comical. Some are born with a much more comical sense, but you can still learn to be comical. You might not be the next Chris Rock or Robin Williams, but you can learn. You can learn by watching and observing others.

Also, different situations call for different types of leaders. Aaron Brooks is NOT asking his guys to go to war with machine guns in hand. All he\'s to do is convince them he can get the job done on the football field!!








[Edited on 18/5/2004 by GumboBC]

SaintNik

http://www.neworleanssaints.com/play...cfm?playerid=9

Everyone here should read the above a couple of times and let some of the facts sink in. Notice things such as ranks in top 5 of all Saints passing catorgories, set single season record for TD passes thrown by a Saint breaking the record which he already shared. LEADER who directed comeback win at Chicago after trailing 20-0.

Other facts of interest are:

Only QB in franchise history to LEAD Saints to a playoff victory.

Lead NFL in TD/INT ratio last year 3/1 with 24 TDs and only 8 INTs (2 of the INTS. were the fault of Donte\' Stallworth juggling the ball in the air right into a defenders hands)

Did not throw a single interception in the 4th quarter last season

When team is trailing by 9-16 points he has a QB rating of 105.6 during that time

When he has 31 attempts or more his QB rating is 108.7

QB rating in the final two minutes of each half is 86.1

In the red zone his QB rating is 101.1

On third down his QB rating is 93.7

When being blitzed his QB rating is 100.4 with over a 1,000 yards and 10 TDs

The receivers dropped 26 passes last year

2003 had 3500+ yards, 24 TDs, only 8 INTS (reads defenses pretty well)

Lack of defensive support allowing 20 points per game.

Defense ranked 19th in 2001, 28th in 2002, and 18th in 2003

Does AB have room for improvement? YES! He must learn to protect the ball better when being hit. Also the phantom fumbles where the ball slips out of his hand must stop. If he could start off as hot as he gets later that would be great. Not smiling during adversity would be easier to take for most fans. Running early when the opportunity presents itself by stepping up in the pocket instead of backpeddling would keep linebackers from dropping into deep zone coverage which would create more space for routes to be run providing bigger passing lanes.. Would like to see him do a better job of putting ball where receivers don\'t have to break stride or slow down. Shouldering fault and blame for team failure when addressing the media whether warranted or not would also go a long way towards being viewed as the team leader.

Just Chillin Checking Out The B&G Forum While Waiting For My Ship To Come In

http://img51.exs.cx/img51/4387/Santa_on_raft.jpg

GumboBC

WOW!! I don\'t know how anyone can argue with that. But, I\'m sure they will.

Great post, SaintNik! Great, great, great, great, great post........


[Edited on 18/5/2004 by GumboBC]

JKool

Nice post SaintNik. That was some fuel for the fire, no doubt.

I\'ll be the first to argue with you though (provided no one types faster than I do). I thought the question was about leadership not physical skill. Pretty well everyone, except maybe BMG seems to agree that AB has all the physical tools. I think that being athletic is only ONE of the components of being a great leader. It is no secret that as of now, I\'m in the pro-AB camp, but I think the counter to your claim GIVEN THE CURRENT DISCUSSION is that it is a Non Sequitur.

It seems that Billy and I agree then that leadership is learned - though I like his word, developed, better. However, the word developed implies that there was something there to develop in the first place. Isn\'t it possible, as WhoDat suggests, that on Billy\'s view of development, there is nothing there to develop in AB\'s case - no X-factor?

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks