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If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by DISPLACEDFAN I don't get why Spags wasn't given more than a yr though My thoughts are that the giving up the most yards in history + he supposedly lost the locker room + he was trying to ...

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Old 09-02-2013, 11:15 AM   #51
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by DISPLACEDFAN View Post
I don't get why Spags wasn't given more than a yr though
My thoughts are that the giving up the most yards in history + he supposedly lost the locker room + he was trying to force a press zone scheme when we have man corners who didn't excel in press?

Not to mention that his whole scheme was reliant on getting pressure with the front 4 and that just didn't work. He didn't try to play to their strengths

And

Payton wanted to move to the 3-4, he's been signing for the 3-4 for a couple of years, Bunkley, Jordan, Hicks, Jenkins,

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Old 09-02-2013, 11:24 AM   #52
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by DISPLACEDFAN View Post
Jenkins ,vilma, w.smith , r,harper d.hawthorne .c.chamberlin K.colmon
Believe me, I would love to get rid of Jenkins, Vilma, and Chamberlin. Hawthorn, Coleman and Harper I would keep,Smith is on I.R. and will not be here next year at all but the other 3 in particular Jenkins and Vilma have not played well for years and I have said it time and time again needed to go for sometimes now. Also if the Chargers can release Meachum and take a hit I feel we could also. I feel your pain but that's been typical throughout the years here, we keep players that are well past their prime or in Jenkins case just the plain stupid. Kind of like when you went to school and the teacher had their favorite pet.
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Old 09-02-2013, 11:42 AM   #53
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by DISPLACEDFAN View Post
so your saying we have a one man team Drew Brees cause we sure as crap don't have a running game not with Ingram back there I still don't know why they don't give the ball to Thomas more the guy's career average is 5 yrs a carry. Tell me why Thomas has gotten to run the ball 20 times 3 times in his career
It seems that you focus on the style as opposed to the substance. Yes the Saints running game was crappy last year. It has no always been though. The Saints have had a top 10 rushing attack in the last few years. Payton actually understands that the offense gets better when the running game is working.

As for Thomas and attempts, the answer is twofold. First and foremost, running back by committee with multiple personnel packages is a staple of Payton's offense. The objective is not to line up in the I formation and pound the defense. That's what's going to give you a 20 rush attempt per game rusher.

The second is more pointed. You quote 5 YPC for Thomas. Brees yards per attempt, not completions but attempts, has been 8.0 or better 4 times and never less than 7.0 in his entire tenure in New Orleans.

Another point is that Pierre's screen game (and it looks like the emerging one for Ingram) delivers a lot of impact even though they are not considered rushes.

I WILL SHUT UP I WONT RESPOND OR POST ANOTHER THING ELSE SORRY FOR HAVING A CONCERN
I'm sorry you are frustrated. I am actually enjoying the discussion. But honestly you are asking for a complete reworking of the franchise when recent history shows that the current basic configuration of this franchise has achieved quite a bit of success in the last 7 years: 4 10+ win seasons, 2 NFC championship appearances, 4 playoff appearances, 1 Championship.

The defense is a concern. If we had a consistent defense that could get off the field, not give up the big play, stand tough in the red zone, and take the ball away, then we'd be a contender to run away with the trophy. We are not there.

My point will continue to be that while the 2009 Saints defense clearly isn't a championship defense. Yet, that defense won the championship.

Can we get there again?

SFIAH
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Old 09-02-2013, 01:33 PM   #54
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by DISPLACEDFAN View Post
like I said before take the hit bring in some rookie that maybe able to surprise and cut our losses. we know what we are getting from those guys which isn't much give somebody else a shot
I am going to try and help you so please read this a few times if you need to, a lot of these conversations have been hashed out a dozen times....

You CAN'T take the hits to cut those people. It's not that you don't want to, you can't and stay under the cap.

Ill run you through some quick numbers just on Roman Harper.
Pay 3.6M
Dead money if cut this year 6.5M

So by cutting Harper you have cut our remaining cap space from 5M to 2M.

Then you cut smith same scenario but frees up 700k so now you have 2.3M to find a starting replacements for both and nothing to spend when the next player gets hurt.

You also do not have enough money to field a practice squad.

Read this it will help.
http://nflsalarycapguru.com/


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Old 09-02-2013, 01:35 PM   #55
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
It seems that you focus on the style as opposed to the substance. Yes the Saints running game was crappy last year. It has no always been though. The Saints have had a top 10 rushing attack in the last few years. Payton actually understands that the offense gets better when the running game is working.

As for Thomas and attempts, the answer is twofold. First and foremost, running back by committee with multiple personnel packages is a staple of Payton's offense. The objective is not to line up in the I formation and pound the defense. That's what's going to give you a 20 rush attempt per game rusher.

The second is more pointed. You quote 5 YPC for Thomas. Brees yards per attempt, not completions but attempts, has been 8.0 or better 4 times and never less than 7.0 in his entire tenure in New Orleans.

Another point is that Pierre's screen game (and it looks like the emerging one for Ingram) delivers a lot of impact even though they are not considered rushes.



I'm sorry you are frustrated. I am actually enjoying the discussion. But honestly you are asking for a complete reworking of the franchise when recent history shows that the current basic configuration of this franchise has achieved quite a bit of success in the last 7 years: 4 10+ win seasons, 2 NFC championship appearances, 4 playoff appearances, 1 Championship.

The defense is a concern. If we had a consistent defense that could get off the field, not give up the big play, stand tough in the red zone, and take the ball away, then we'd be a contender to run away with the trophy. We are not there.

My point will continue to be that while the 2009 Saints defense clearly isn't a championship defense. Yet, that defense won the championship.

Can we get there again?

SFIAH
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:07 PM   #56
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

I wish I could go back and not have ever started this thread. I'm sure most of you do as well
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:24 PM   #57
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by DISPLACEDFAN View Post
I wish I could go back and not have ever started this thread. I'm sure most of you do as well
Don't be, you have opinions, I have opinions, everyone does.... We don't all agree all the time, I get checked regularly trust me... I try and do a little homework before I post "most of the time".

After you've been here long enough you'll get a feel for the personalities and the same person that checked a statement of yours 2 minutes ago" likes" something you post somewhere else....

We are more like family here that school yard bullies. If you call BS on something I say I'll take it as brotherly love.

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Old 09-02-2013, 02:33 PM   #58
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Understanding the salary cap is actually quite interesting. When you start going into LTBE and NLTBE bonuses and how they affect rollover cap as well, then it starts to get REALLY interesting....

Did I just go nerd?
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:37 PM   #59
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by thebdj View Post
Understanding the salary cap is actually quite interesting. When you start going into LTBE and NLTBE bonuses and how they affect rollover cap as well, then it starts to get REALLY interesting....

Did I just go nerd?
I'm proud! Did you also know if you finish the season $5M under the cap it carries over to next year and can offset someone's increase (Drewcough)

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Old 09-02-2013, 04:30 PM   #60
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by DISPLACEDFAN View Post
I guess I don't get the cap cause this isn't the NBA where contracts are guaranteed
OK. So let's do NFL Capology 101.

NFL Salaries are divided into three components:

1. Signing Bonus (Guaranteed)
2. Annual Salary (not Guaranteed)
3. Other (depends on the contract). This includes option money, workout bonuses, incentives and the like.

#2 always counts against the cap the year that it is paid. If the player is no longer on the team when this money comes up, it does not count against the cap.

#1 is paid when the contract is signed. Short of breech of contract, the player gets to keep the money no matter what. Since this often is a large percentage of the contract, if it had to count against the cap the year it was paid, then the cap would be destroyed quickly. So League rules allows for that bonus to count against the cap in installments over the life of the contract.

#3 may or not me guaranteed. Typically guaranteed dollars are divided like the signing bonus while non guaranteed dollars count against the cap the year they are paid.

Now there are a couple of exceptions. First is #3 guaranteed dollars. They become guaranteed when they are paid. However if the player is released before those option dollars are paid, the team isn't responsible for those dollars against the cap.

The second item is that the guaranteed signing bonus from #1 payments against the cap are accelerated if the player is released before the end of the contract. Instead of paying out the money over the term of the original contract, the money counts against the cap for only 2 years: the current year and the next one.

Note that the league year starts in the first week in March after the SuperBowl. So any players who are still on the roster at the start of the league year will count.

If you read the rules above you will find that it is possible for a player who is released to still count for a significant amount of money against the cap for up to two years. This money is called Dead Money. It cannot be spent on another player, yet the player it counts against is no longer on your squad.

Both the player and the team are incentivized by signing bonuses. The player gets the guaranteed money now. The team gets to spread out the cost of that money over the length of the contract.

The team is incentivized for #2 since it's not guaranteed and it doesn't count against the cap until the league year it is paid. So contracts often will have huge salaries on the back end of the contract. It's money that both the team and player know will likely never be paid in the stated form as it'll kill the team's caps in those years. So before then, the player is released if they are no longer productive, or restructures their contract to a new signing bonus and a much lower salary moving forward.

Now #3 is a chess match. The player wants options to become guaranteed early and often. The team however wants to push back options so they can see if the player is productive enough to be worth the investment of guaranteed dollars.

So for example let's take a player with an 6 year $48 million contract with a $18 million signing bonus, a $6 million option payment in year 4, and salaries of $1, $3, $3, $3, $6, and $8 million salary in years 1-6.

First off the realistic value of the contract is about $23-32 million. The $18 million and the first three years of salary will be paid. If the player is still productive after the first three years, then the $6 option payment and $3 salary will be added in year 4. It is likely that the last $14 million in the last two years will never be paid as structured.

So what's the cap hit? Well $18/6 = $3 million per year. If the option bonus is paid in year 4, then it is divided among the remaining 3 years. So $6/3 = $2 million for the last three years of the contract. These are added to the salaries. So the cap hit would be $4, $6, $6, $8, $11, $13 million for the 6 years.

So now let's get to the dead money. The first decision point is after year 3. It's a no brainer if the player is living up to the contract. Pay the $6 million and keep it moving. But if the player needs to be replaced then the contract is terminated before year 4. So the last 3 years of salary ($17 million) and the $6 million option are not paid. The player walks away with the $18 million bonus and the $5 million in salary. However, the team is on the hook for the remaining $9 million of signing bonus that has not yet been charged to the cap. And they have 2 years to get it done. So the player costs $4.5 million per year in cap for years 4 and 5. Since the contract is terminated, the player is no longer on the team and has to be replaced. But for the next two years the cap is $4.5 million lower than everyone elses. Now note it's less than the $6 and $8 million that would have counted if the player had been retained.

It gets a bit worse if the player were terminated after year 4. Since the $6 million option has been paid the player walks away after 4 years with $32 million. There is still $6 million left of the signing bonus, and another $4 million from the option payment. So the team will have $5 million a year to pay for the missing player in years 5 and 6.

If the player is still productive after year 4, then the team will probably come to the player and try to renegotiate. But the player has some leverage because the team will have to eat $5 million and not have a player if they simply terminate the contract.

So this year Harper, Smith, and Vilma were all in these year 4 and 5 situations. So getting rid of them could have put upwards of $20 million of dead money for the next two years.

So as the old saying goes... "sometimes it's cheaper to keep 'em"

SFIAH
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