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If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by DISPLACEDFAN I was never calling for the ax to fall on Rob I don't get why Spags wasn't given more than a yr though Most likely, Payton got more than enough opportunity to see the team in ...

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Old 09-02-2013, 05:38 PM   #61
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by DISPLACEDFAN View Post
I was never calling for the ax to fall on Rob
I don't get why Spags wasn't given more than a yr though
Most likely, Payton got more than enough opportunity to see the team in action last year and objectively determined that the scheme wasn't going to work when he got back. It sucked for Spags, but considering how quickly he was dismissed, it's clear that Payton had his mind made up walking into the building.

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Old 09-02-2013, 06:05 PM   #62
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

I wanted Romeo, but figured that missing Sean Payton was really the difference last year in any case.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:18 PM   #63
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by Lord_Saint83 View Post
Its easy to blame the dc when the defense is not good and in some instances it is be it scheme or what have u. Then there are times when the personnel just isn't talented or too old or too young whatever. No matter how hard u try u cant polish a turd.
Ive always felt that most players on our defense barely qualifies as starter material. With the exception of a couple notable guys like Jabari Greer or Vilma ( in the past) and now Lofton.

I think Gregg Williams got the most he could get out of them for a couple years there, a guy like Spags comes in and the guys just failed to learn his scheme, TBH I would of had more trust in Spags than anyone, might still do, I think our defensive players is the problem.

But I can tell you the one time we was playing with Bush and Quddus at Safety, seemed to of worked under Spags as opposed to Harper and whoever the hell else is at safety. Remember the 45-0 was it? thrashing of Tampa? It games like that that raises an eye brow to me for the fact his scheme shut out Tampa and then look back at potential problems on the defense more than any DC can handle or fix. I dont think Williams, Spags, or Gibbs was a problem. I think our players are the problem.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:38 PM   #64
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by DISPLACEDFAN View Post
I'm going into the season giving Rob Ryan the benefit of the doubt
That is oh so magnanimous of you. I am sure Rob deeply appreciates this gesture.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:51 PM   #65
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Joe Vitt? Lol
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Old 09-03-2013, 07:55 AM   #66
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
OK. So let's do NFL Capology 101.

NFL Salaries are divided into three components:

1. Signing Bonus (Guaranteed)
2. Annual Salary (not Guaranteed)
3. Other (depends on the contract). This includes option money, workout bonuses, incentives and the like.

#2 always counts against the cap the year that it is paid. If the player is no longer on the team when this money comes up, it does not count against the cap.

#1 is paid when the contract is signed. Short of breech of contract, the player gets to keep the money no matter what. Since this often is a large percentage of the contract, if it had to count against the cap the year it was paid, then the cap would be destroyed quickly. So League rules allows for that bonus to count against the cap in installments over the life of the contract.

#3 may or not me guaranteed. Typically guaranteed dollars are divided like the signing bonus while non guaranteed dollars count against the cap the year they are paid.

Now there are a couple of exceptions. First is #3 guaranteed dollars. They become guaranteed when they are paid. However if the player is released before those option dollars are paid, the team isn't responsible for those dollars against the cap.

The second item is that the guaranteed signing bonus from #1 payments against the cap are accelerated if the player is released before the end of the contract. Instead of paying out the money over the term of the original contract, the money counts against the cap for only 2 years: the current year and the next one.

Note that the league year starts in the first week in March after the SuperBowl. So any players who are still on the roster at the start of the league year will count.

If you read the rules above you will find that it is possible for a player who is released to still count for a significant amount of money against the cap for up to two years. This money is called Dead Money. It cannot be spent on another player, yet the player it counts against is no longer on your squad.

Both the player and the team are incentivized by signing bonuses. The player gets the guaranteed money now. The team gets to spread out the cost of that money over the length of the contract.

The team is incentivized for #2 since it's not guaranteed and it doesn't count against the cap until the league year it is paid. So contracts often will have huge salaries on the back end of the contract. It's money that both the team and player know will likely never be paid in the stated form as it'll kill the team's caps in those years. So before then, the player is released if they are no longer productive, or restructures their contract to a new signing bonus and a much lower salary moving forward.

Now #3 is a chess match. The player wants options to become guaranteed early and often. The team however wants to push back options so they can see if the player is productive enough to be worth the investment of guaranteed dollars.

So for example let's take a player with an 6 year $48 million contract with a $18 million signing bonus, a $6 million option payment in year 4, and salaries of $1, $3, $3, $3, $6, and $8 million salary in years 1-6.

First off the realistic value of the contract is about $23-32 million. The $18 million and the first three years of salary will be paid. If the player is still productive after the first three years, then the $6 option payment and $3 salary will be added in year 4. It is likely that the last $14 million in the last two years will never be paid as structured.

So what's the cap hit? Well $18/6 = $3 million per year. If the option bonus is paid in year 4, then it is divided among the remaining 3 years. So $6/3 = $2 million for the last three years of the contract. These are added to the salaries. So the cap hit would be $4, $6, $6, $8, $11, $13 million for the 6 years.

So now let's get to the dead money. The first decision point is after year 3. It's a no brainer if the player is living up to the contract. Pay the $6 million and keep it moving. But if the player needs to be replaced then the contract is terminated before year 4. So the last 3 years of salary ($17 million) and the $6 million option are not paid. The player walks away with the $18 million bonus and the $5 million in salary. However, the team is on the hook for the remaining $9 million of signing bonus that has not yet been charged to the cap. And they have 2 years to get it done. So the player costs $4.5 million per year in cap for years 4 and 5. Since the contract is terminated, the player is no longer on the team and has to be replaced. But for the next two years the cap is $4.5 million lower than everyone elses. Now note it's less than the $6 and $8 million that would have counted if the player had been retained.

It gets a bit worse if the player were terminated after year 4. Since the $6 million option has been paid the player walks away after 4 years with $32 million. There is still $6 million left of the signing bonus, and another $4 million from the option payment. So the team will have $5 million a year to pay for the missing player in years 5 and 6.

If the player is still productive after year 4, then the team will probably come to the player and try to renegotiate. But the player has some leverage because the team will have to eat $5 million and not have a player if they simply terminate the contract.

So this year Harper, Smith, and Vilma were all in these year 4 and 5 situations. So getting rid of them could have put upwards of $20 million of dead money for the next two years.

So as the old saying goes... "sometimes it's cheaper to keep 'em"

SFIAH
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Old 09-03-2013, 08:53 AM   #67
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL View Post
OK. So let's do NFL Capology 101.

NFL Salaries are divided into three components:

1. Signing Bonus (Guaranteed)
2. Annual Salary (not Guaranteed)
3. Other (depends on the contract). This includes option money, workout bonuses, incentives and the like.

#2 always counts against the cap the year that it is paid. If the player is no longer on the team when this money comes up, it does not count against the cap.

#1 is paid when the contract is signed. Short of breech of contract, the player gets to keep the money no matter what. Since this often is a large percentage of the contract, if it had to count against the cap the year it was paid, then the cap would be destroyed quickly. So League rules allows for that bonus to count against the cap in installments over the life of the contract.

#3 may or not me guaranteed. Typically guaranteed dollars are divided like the signing bonus while non guaranteed dollars count against the cap the year they are paid.

Now there are a couple of exceptions. First is #3 guaranteed dollars. They become guaranteed when they are paid. However if the player is released before those option dollars are paid, the team isn't responsible for those dollars against the cap.

The second item is that the guaranteed signing bonus from #1 payments against the cap are accelerated if the player is released before the end of the contract. Instead of paying out the money over the term of the original contract, the money counts against the cap for only 2 years: the current year and the next one.

Note that the league year starts in the first week in March after the SuperBowl. So any players who are still on the roster at the start of the league year will count.

If you read the rules above you will find that it is possible for a player who is released to still count for a significant amount of money against the cap for up to two years. This money is called Dead Money. It cannot be spent on another player, yet the player it counts against is no longer on your squad.

Both the player and the team are incentivized by signing bonuses. The player gets the guaranteed money now. The team gets to spread out the cost of that money over the length of the contract.

The team is incentivized for #2 since it's not guaranteed and it doesn't count against the cap until the league year it is paid. So contracts often will have huge salaries on the back end of the contract. It's money that both the team and player know will likely never be paid in the stated form as it'll kill the team's caps in those years. So before then, the player is released if they are no longer productive, or restructures their contract to a new signing bonus and a much lower salary moving forward.

Now #3 is a chess match. The player wants options to become guaranteed early and often. The team however wants to push back options so they can see if the player is productive enough to be worth the investment of guaranteed dollars.

So for example let's take a player with an 6 year $48 million contract with a $18 million signing bonus, a $6 million option payment in year 4, and salaries of $1, $3, $3, $3, $6, and $8 million salary in years 1-6.

First off the realistic value of the contract is about $23-32 million. The $18 million and the first three years of salary will be paid. If the player is still productive after the first three years, then the $6 option payment and $3 salary will be added in year 4. It is likely that the last $14 million in the last two years will never be paid as structured.

So what's the cap hit? Well $18/6 = $3 million per year. If the option bonus is paid in year 4, then it is divided among the remaining 3 years. So $6/3 = $2 million for the last three years of the contract. These are added to the salaries. So the cap hit would be $4, $6, $6, $8, $11, $13 million for the 6 years.

So now let's get to the dead money. The first decision point is after year 3. It's a no brainer if the player is living up to the contract. Pay the $6 million and keep it moving. But if the player needs to be replaced then the contract is terminated before year 4. So the last 3 years of salary ($17 million) and the $6 million option are not paid. The player walks away with the $18 million bonus and the $5 million in salary. However, the team is on the hook for the remaining $9 million of signing bonus that has not yet been charged to the cap. And they have 2 years to get it done. So the player costs $4.5 million per year in cap for years 4 and 5. Since the contract is terminated, the player is no longer on the team and has to be replaced. But for the next two years the cap is $4.5 million lower than everyone elses. Now note it's less than the $6 and $8 million that would have counted if the player had been retained.

It gets a bit worse if the player were terminated after year 4. Since the $6 million option has been paid the player walks away after 4 years with $32 million. There is still $6 million left of the signing bonus, and another $4 million from the option payment. So the team will have $5 million a year to pay for the missing player in years 5 and 6.

If the player is still productive after year 4, then the team will probably come to the player and try to renegotiate. But the player has some leverage because the team will have to eat $5 million and not have a player if they simply terminate the contract.

So this year Harper, Smith, and Vilma were all in these year 4 and 5 situations. So getting rid of them could have put upwards of $20 million of dead money for the next two years.

So as the old saying goes... "sometimes it's cheaper to keep 'em"

SFIAH
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:12 AM   #68
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Ive been throwing around the idea of a sticky that covers this and a lot more.. The only thing that keeps me from putting in the time and effort is that people dont read before they ask..

We could have 5 threads on top titled we won the Super Bowl and right above them will be a one line thread. Did we win the Super Bowl..

Exactly like what happened with my Play off structure break down thread :/

sigh......
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Old 09-03-2013, 09:18 AM   #69
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by TheOak View Post
Ive been throwing around the idea of a sticky that covers this and a lot more.. The only thing that keeps me from putting in the time and effort is that people dont read before they ask..

We could have 5 threads on top titled we won the Super Bowl and right above them will be a one line thread. Did we win the Super Bowl..

Exactly like what happened with my Play off structure break down thread :/

sigh......
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Old 09-03-2013, 03:04 PM   #70
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Re: If Rob Ryan fails to fix the Defense Who's Next DC?

Originally Posted by DISPLACEDFAN View Post
Again why so combative we are on the same side you know
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