Brooks

JKool · 12-08-2004, 12:05 PM

Nice points, Danno.

I also agree that it is the coaches job to get the team in line. Of course, Marino was effective at it as well. Two points:

(1) Did Marino do this early in his career, or was it only after he\'d established himself as a first rate player (though, I suppose, that actually ocurred pretty quickly for him)? Given that AB isn\'t generally considered a first rate player (or at least not as first rate as Marino -

), do you think players would actually respond well (or anywhere near as well as to Marino) to that from him?

(2) It is your view that leadership is needed. However, why should it come if not from the coaches then from the QB? I mean, it is obvious to me that it would be great a QB was a leader (as the focal point of the offense, something about that seems natural), but it certainly doesn\'t have to be, right?

I guess, I don\'t see that Whodi\'s point about AB being one of the main people who should hold other players accountable, and not someone like Duece, is true. Sure it would be nice, if AB did these things. But why does the RB get to \"lead by example\" and the QB must \"lead with his voice\"?

PS -

JKool · 12-08-2004, 12:08 PM

PPS - Danno, did you just mention Marino and Brooks in the same post! How is that even possible!?!

saintswhodi · 12-08-2004, 12:44 PM

It\'s simple Kool, the qb gets the blame for wins and losses, whther his team gave up 50 and he threw 3 picks trying to bring them back, or they won by 20 and the D held the other team scoreless. It\'s all on the qbs head. Baltimore loses, and people say it\'s cause Boller is not ready and he is not the answer, forget that Heap hasn\'t played all year , Jamal is out and Ogden has been out, his 3 best offensive players. Forget that the defense gave up 14 points in the 4th quarter. People are blaming Boller. That\'s just how it goes. How many rb leaders are there in the NFL? Tomlinson is the best rb in the league, and he is prob the most quiet guy ever. Sanders was the greatest ever, he never took a leadership role. He led by example, like Deuce. IT is a qbs job or a head coach\'s job to be the leader on a team w/o strong personalities, which is what we have. IF we had strong personalities, like a Ray Lewis, then someone else could doit, but we don\'t. So it falls on AB or the coaches, as it should.

BrooksMustGo · 12-08-2004, 02:37 PM

I\'ve been looking into this drop issue. I just don\'t see drops killing this offense.

I went here for my information by the way: http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/index.asp

Brooks has had about 4.8% of all his passes dropped this year.
Tom Brady has had about 4.5% of his dropped.
Favre has had about 4.7% of his dropped.
Brees has had about 4.4% of his dropped.
Manning is noteworthy in that 3.6% of his are dropped, but then he\'s only made 385 attempts in contrast to AB\'s 442.

I wonder if our problem is less the drops and more the lack of run blocking? We throw the ball too much. We don\'t run block very well and we end up playing behind and taking out be offensive weapon out of the game. I\'m not sure this is a good idea or even good football.

I feel pretty comfortable in suggesting that drops aren\'t our problem. Play calling certainly is. Run blocking certainly is. Game planning certainly is. Our irrational devotion to the passing game certainly is, but I just don\'t see how drops are the problem.

JKool · 12-08-2004, 02:51 PM

Whodi,

I take your point. So you agree that it isn\'t necessary that the QB be the leader, it just makes sense that after the coaches it should fall to the QB (provided there aren\'t others to do it).

I don\'t know what I think about the RB point; surely being a great RB does not require being a leader, but, of course, it doesn\'t mean they couldn\'t be - right?

I sometimes wonder whether it is necessary to be a great QB you must be a leader (whatever that means); of course, you can be a darn good QB and not be a leader. It seems to me that yes you do have to be a leader to be a great QB. Then I wonder about Montana - surely, he was a great QB, but he had a calm demeanor. He lead by example, the way you suggest Duece does, but he didn\'t \"lead with his voice\" - as people seem to think Brooks should. Was Montana not great despite the fact he was calm and easy going or just not great?

BMG,

Nice post. I agree. Just one problem, you mentioned Brooks and Farve in the same post! OMG!!! How is that even comprehensible!?!

saintswhodi · 12-08-2004, 03:05 PM

kool, I do agree that a qb doesn\'t have to be the leader. But if noone else steps up, he should be, at least on the offensive side of the ball. When people drop balls, he needs to say something about it if the coaches aren\'t. It\'s not required a qb be the leader, as Ray Lewis was the leader of the Balt team that won the Superbowl. In this case Ray Lewis was enough leader for the whole team, so the qb can take a back seat. We have no personalities like that on our team. I think all it would take is for AB to stand up and say, \"Hey, I have made mistakes but I wanna lead this team. I want to be here and I want to get it right. I will hold myself accountable for my bad passes if you guys do the same for your drops.\" He would probably glean a little more respect just for admitting his faults, but he won\'t and we know it.

And naturally, a great rb could be a leader, I just don\'t have many examples where that was the case. If you have some, I would love to think about them.

In Montana\'s case, you are exactly right. He was very calm, but he won games. He made plays. His play lead his team to greatness so he didn\'t have to get demonstrative. His team believed im him as their leader. He had to earn it though, and AB has not. So AB could lead by example, but he has shown neither the ability, the capacity, or the want to do so. SO at the least, he can start to be accountable, and hold others accountable. you gotta start somewhere.

JKool · 12-08-2004, 04:18 PM

Whodi,

I think we are in near complete agreement!

I\'ve been trying to think of an example at RB. They tend to be the strong silent type, don\'t they? Maybe Roger Craig or Marcus Allen - they were a bit more vocal on the sidelines than others - I don\'t know? It would be cool if someone had a more solid example.

saintswhodi · 12-08-2004, 04:36 PM

We\'re almost there Kool. Stay with me. I think Marshall Faulk was a leader on the Rams team. I can\'t clearly recall him getting in someone\'s face, but I know he plays with a lot of passion. I would say Emmitt, but there were so many strogn personalities on that team I can\'t focus on him as the leader. I know Ricky Watters was vocal, but I would not consider him a leader. I can\'t really think of one, so until someone does, I think history shows if a rb is good enough, he leads by example, and that is good enough for Deuce IMO.

mutineer10 · 12-08-2004, 07:43 PM

Then I wonder about Montana - surely, he was a great QB, but he had a calm demeanor. He lead by example, the way you suggest Duece does, but he didn\'t \"lead with his voice\" - as people seem to think Brooks should. Was Montana not great despite the fact he was calm and easy going or just not great?

Montana was truly great, probably the best I\'ve seen in my lifetime. But he was also surrounded by greatness - Craig, Rice, Clark - maybe even Taylor & Rathman. Sure, he wasn\'t vocal, but how often did he need to get in Craig or Rice\'s face? Not that often. Throw a solid OL and Bill Walsh into the mix and there\'s your dynastic offense. I guess Walsh probably gets the nod as \"Leader\" there, but it could be argued that very little vocal leadership was needed given all that talent and professionalism.

And since we\'re mentioning the silent, lead-by-example RB\'s, I\'m surprised noone mentioned Priest Holmes. I think he\'s the perfect example. Maybe he got passed over \'cause he\'s gimped up right now!

JKool · 12-09-2004, 12:08 AM

Well boys,

I guess we agree that RB isn\'t usually a \"vocal leader\" position. In fact, it is pretty darned hard to think of even one who is/was. They are often, if any sort of leader, \"example leaders\".

We\'re also in agreement then that QBs don\'t need to be \"vocal leaders\" to be great QBs - e.g. Joe Montana. However, they may need to be \"example leaders\". Which is, of course, one of the reasons that Brooks isn\'t a GREAT QB.

We\'re also in agreement that the responsibility for \"vocal\" leadership starts with the coaches then seems to naturally move to the QB - so having a \"vocal\" QB is an asset, but not a necessity for a quality team.

Damn, that is some fine work.

12-08-2004, 12:05 PM	#191
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Brooks Nice points, Danno. I also agree that it is the coaches job to get the team in line. Of course, Marino was effective at it as well. Two points: (1) Did Marino do this early in his career, or was it only after he\'d established himself as a first rate player (though, I suppose, that actually ocurred pretty quickly for him)? Given that AB isn\'t generally considered a first rate player (or at least not as first rate as Marino - ), do you think players would actually respond well (or anywhere near as well as to Marino) to that from him? (2) It is your view that leadership is needed. However, why should it come if not from the coaches then from the QB? I mean, it is obvious to me that it would be great a QB was a leader (as the focal point of the offense, something about that seems natural), but it certainly doesn\'t have to be, right? I guess, I don\'t see that Whodi\'s point about AB being one of the main people who should hold other players accountable, and not someone like Duece, is true. Sure it would be nice, if AB did these things. But why does the RB get to \"lead by example\" and the QB must \"lead with his voice\"? PS -
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

12-08-2004, 12:08 PM	#192
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Brooks PPS - Danno, did you just mention Marino and Brooks in the same post! How is that even possible!?!

12-08-2004, 12:44 PM	#193
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Brooks It\'s simple Kool, the qb gets the blame for wins and losses, whther his team gave up 50 and he threw 3 picks trying to bring them back, or they won by 20 and the D held the other team scoreless. It\'s all on the qbs head. Baltimore loses, and people say it\'s cause Boller is not ready and he is not the answer, forget that Heap hasn\'t played all year , Jamal is out and Ogden has been out, his 3 best offensive players. Forget that the defense gave up 14 points in the 4th quarter. People are blaming Boller. That\'s just how it goes. How many rb leaders are there in the NFL? Tomlinson is the best rb in the league, and he is prob the most quiet guy ever. Sanders was the greatest ever, he never took a leadership role. He led by example, like Deuce. IT is a qbs job or a head coach\'s job to be the leader on a team w/o strong personalities, which is what we have. IF we had strong personalities, like a Ray Lewis, then someone else could doit, but we don\'t. So it falls on AB or the coaches, as it should.

12-08-2004, 02:37 PM	#194
BrooksMustGo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,762	Brooks I\'ve been looking into this drop issue. I just don\'t see drops killing this offense. I went here for my information by the way: http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/index.asp Brooks has had about 4.8% of all his passes dropped this year. Tom Brady has had about 4.5% of his dropped. Favre has had about 4.7% of his dropped. Brees has had about 4.4% of his dropped. Manning is noteworthy in that 3.6% of his are dropped, but then he\'s only made 385 attempts in contrast to AB\'s 442. I wonder if our problem is less the drops and more the lack of run blocking? We throw the ball too much. We don\'t run block very well and we end up playing behind and taking out be offensive weapon out of the game. I\'m not sure this is a good idea or even good football. I feel pretty comfortable in suggesting that drops aren\'t our problem. Play calling certainly is. Run blocking certainly is. Game planning certainly is. Our irrational devotion to the passing game certainly is, but I just don\'t see how drops are the problem.
	http://www.blackandgold.net/site/signature/buddysig.jpg

12-08-2004, 02:51 PM	#195
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Brooks Whodi, I take your point. So you agree that it isn\'t necessary that the QB be the leader, it just makes sense that after the coaches it should fall to the QB (provided there aren\'t others to do it). I don\'t know what I think about the RB point; surely being a great RB does not require being a leader, but, of course, it doesn\'t mean they couldn\'t be - right? I sometimes wonder whether it is necessary to be a great QB you must be a leader (whatever that means); of course, you can be a darn good QB and not be a leader. It seems to me that yes you do have to be a leader to be a great QB. Then I wonder about Montana - surely, he was a great QB, but he had a calm demeanor. He lead by example, the way you suggest Duece does, but he didn\'t \"lead with his voice\" - as people seem to think Brooks should. Was Montana not great despite the fact he was calm and easy going or just not great? BMG, Nice post. I agree. Just one problem, you mentioned Brooks and Farve in the same post! OMG!!! How is that even comprehensible!?!
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

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12-08-2004, 03:05 PM	#196
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Brooks kool, I do agree that a qb doesn\'t have to be the leader. But if noone else steps up, he should be, at least on the offensive side of the ball. When people drop balls, he needs to say something about it if the coaches aren\'t. It\'s not required a qb be the leader, as Ray Lewis was the leader of the Balt team that won the Superbowl. In this case Ray Lewis was enough leader for the whole team, so the qb can take a back seat. We have no personalities like that on our team. I think all it would take is for AB to stand up and say, \"Hey, I have made mistakes but I wanna lead this team. I want to be here and I want to get it right. I will hold myself accountable for my bad passes if you guys do the same for your drops.\" He would probably glean a little more respect just for admitting his faults, but he won\'t and we know it. And naturally, a great rb could be a leader, I just don\'t have many examples where that was the case. If you have some, I would love to think about them. In Montana\'s case, you are exactly right. He was very calm, but he won games. He made plays. His play lead his team to greatness so he didn\'t have to get demonstrative. His team believed im him as their leader. He had to earn it though, and AB has not. So AB could lead by example, but he has shown neither the ability, the capacity, or the want to do so. SO at the least, he can start to be accountable, and hold others accountable. you gotta start somewhere.

12-08-2004, 04:18 PM	#197
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Brooks Whodi, I think we are in near complete agreement! I\'ve been trying to think of an example at RB. They tend to be the strong silent type, don\'t they? Maybe Roger Craig or Marcus Allen - they were a bit more vocal on the sidelines than others - I don\'t know? It would be cool if someone had a more solid example.

12-08-2004, 04:36 PM	#198
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Brooks We\'re almost there Kool. Stay with me. I think Marshall Faulk was a leader on the Rams team. I can\'t clearly recall him getting in someone\'s face, but I know he plays with a lot of passion. I would say Emmitt, but there were so many strogn personalities on that team I can\'t focus on him as the leader. I know Ricky Watters was vocal, but I would not consider him a leader. I can\'t really think of one, so until someone does, I think history shows if a rb is good enough, he leads by example, and that is good enough for Deuce IMO.

12-08-2004, 07:43 PM	#199
mutineer10 Site Donor Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 1,739	Brooks Then I wonder about Montana - surely, he was a great QB, but he had a calm demeanor. He lead by example, the way you suggest Duece does, but he didn\'t \"lead with his voice\" - as people seem to think Brooks should. Was Montana not great despite the fact he was calm and easy going or just not great? Montana was truly great, probably the best I\'ve seen in my lifetime. But he was also surrounded by greatness - Craig, Rice, Clark - maybe even Taylor & Rathman. Sure, he wasn\'t vocal, but how often did he need to get in Craig or Rice\'s face? Not that often. Throw a solid OL and Bill Walsh into the mix and there\'s your dynastic offense. I guess Walsh probably gets the nod as \"Leader\" there, but it could be argued that very little vocal leadership was needed given all that talent and professionalism. And since we\'re mentioning the silent, lead-by-example RB\'s, I\'m surprised noone mentioned Priest Holmes. I think he\'s the perfect example. Maybe he got passed over \'cause he\'s gimped up right now!

12-09-2004, 12:08 AM	#200
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Brooks Well boys, I guess we agree that RB isn\'t usually a \"vocal leader\" position. In fact, it is pretty darned hard to think of even one who is/was. They are often, if any sort of leader, \"example leaders\". We\'re also in agreement then that QBs don\'t need to be \"vocal leaders\" to be great QBs - e.g. Joe Montana. However, they may need to be \"example leaders\". Which is, of course, one of the reasons that Brooks isn\'t a GREAT QB. We\'re also in agreement that the responsibility for \"vocal\" leadership starts with the coaches then seems to naturally move to the QB - so having a \"vocal\" QB is an asset, but not a necessity for a quality team. Damn, that is some fine work.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks