Brooks

TheJudge · 11-29-2004, 09:26 PM

rumor is that mat lienert fomr USC may come out early.....unless of course the saints show intrest......and maybe aaron rogers out of CAL...

OR we could go after randall out of LSU, i hear he is sweet!

[Edited on 30/11/2004 by TheJudge]

SaintFanInATLHELL · 11-30-2004, 09:01 AM

Where is Whodat?

What? You need more from me? Didn\'t I already say that AB is THE problem for the Saints? Get rid of him and this team goes 14-2... that\'s what I said, right? LOL

The argument for pro-Brooksians these days seems to be (a) he isn\'t the biggest problem, so why are we even talking about him, (b) if the defense didn\'t suck his bone-headed backwards passes wouldn\'t matter so much, and/or (c) there\'s no other good QBs out there so let\'s stick with him.

All of those statements may be true, but they sure don\'t paint a pretty picture of AB. Basically, you\'re all saying, yeah, AB sucks, but the defense and available backups suck more. So what, he still sucks and is therefore a problem worth addressing, no?

Actually I don\'t think that he sucks. I think that the situation that he\'s currently in sucks. But almost universally everyone here thinks we need to get rid of him instead of trying to correct the situation around him.

The Saints are as predictable as water flowing downhill. In the first quarter McCarthy tries to establish the run. It rarely works. The defense gives up between 10 and 14 points in the 1st quarter while the offense has 3 three and outs because of predictable play calling mixed in with the inevitable false starts and holding penalties. All of a sudden the team is down 14-0.

Then the offense opens up. AB starts slinging the ball all over the field. The team gets back into the game somewhat. But in the end the defense has already leaked the requisite 20 points to the opposition. 11 games, at least 20 points a game.

It\'s a sad predictable situation that opposing teams can count on.

Personally I think McCarthy and Haslett are insane: They keep doing the same thing but expecting a different result.

And AB gets the blame for all of this. Somehow everyone is convinced that if you get another QB in there, it\'ll all be different somehow. Everyone seems to be asking why AB cannot consistently convert a 3rd and 12. I\'m asking why is the team in a 3rd in 12 to begin with?

We\'re sitting here talking about AB. But why is no one asking about Stallworth essentially losing the game by not converting that last 3rd down before the 2 minute warning in the Falcons game? Or why the more prolific playmaker on Falcons is running around uncovered at the end of the game?

Plus going over the numbers again Brooks numbers seem to be cap friendly as compared to other QBs in the top 5-15 in the league.

Brooks isn\'t a top 5 QB. However in the right situation and the right guidance he certainly could be a capable top 10 QB coupled with a top 3 RB and a top 5 receiver for the conceivable future.

Snippage on the rest.

SFIAH

Danno · 11-30-2004, 12:18 PM

Gator - \"he doesn\'t look that bad next to a Junky Line, WRs that drop easy passes, and an offensive coordinator I think everyone in the league has figured out how to beat\".

Good point. How would he look with a solid O-line, DEPENDABLE TE\'s and more than one good WR? Is it just me or does it seem our opponents know exactly what play we\'re gonna run before we even snap the ball?

Just think AB is a piece of the puzzle that is not so easy to replace as an OL or LB or DL or WR. IMO, I\'d solidify the Defense and patch up the offense, while drafting a QB and let him become groomed under AB.
After all, Drew Brees was a big bust once before the team around him got better. Same thing with Elway. And by no means am I saying AB is like an Elway or Brees. Just saying the supporting cast make a HUGE difference and right now the Saints supporting cast around AB is horrible.

You\'re right, on a list of things wrong with this team, AB isn\'t exactly at the top of the list. But I think a change of identity would help. I think this team has an attitude/confidence problem. Put AB on a team thats both confident and cocky and he\'ll probably make us regret running him off. It would be par for the course. Sometimes I can\'t shake duck-hooking my Big Bertha, and even though I know the Driver isn\'t the problem, sometimes changing to my Titleist helps.

WhoDat · 11-30-2004, 02:10 PM

Anybody think we can get this to 6 pages? LOL

JKool, I just thought I\'d get my shots in on WhoDat. I\'m frankly tired of him coming in here and thinking he can get by on his good looks alone.

BMG - I missed this last time. You just moved to the top of my list. LOL

As far as Brooks \"sucking\", I have nothing to say until \"sucking\" is operationalized in some way - agree or disagree we will be left with the problem of sorting out what \"sucks\" means.

Hey Granola-boy, you suck! LOL

Clear? LMAO

Does anyone think AB will get any better? Would a new Coach & staff make the difference? Can he be coached up?

Could AB be coached better than he is being coached now? I\'m sure of it. Would it make a differnce? Nope. His scouting report was right on. Has no touch, isn\'t a student of the game, is too dumb. AB has made the same type of mistakes over and over and over again for 5 years as a starter. If was going to learn, he would have already. No, he lacks the smarts and intangibles. He will forever be Jeff Blake, Jeff George, etc.

You\'re right, on a list of things wrong with this team, AB isn\'t exactly at the top of the list. But I think a change of identity would help.

Exactly.

JKool · 11-30-2004, 08:46 PM

SFIAH, we\'re still on the same page. Keep up the good work.

WhoDat, you\'ve caused me to change my mind completely. If Brooks sucks means what you suggest, then he must be totally awesome! Man, I can\'t believe anyone would suggest trading a guy who is so good at everything!

Don\'t make me beat you with my eyes again... :hallucine:

[Edited on 1/12/2004 by JKool]

mutineer10 · 12-01-2004, 07:03 AM

Anybody think we can get this to 6 pages? LOL

What\'s truly amazing is that the post has run this long when so many of us seem to be (more or less) in agreement.

Most of us seem to think that, while he regularly embarrasses and confuses us, Brooks is a serviceable enough QB. We certainly don\'t have anyone better on the roster, and we\'re paying him too much to have much hope of getting a fair deal out of him (and we\'d still need a QB if we did). AB has shown much ineptitude sprinkled with flashes of greatness, and while that\'s not necessarily encouraging, it\'s better than alot of teams can boast. Look at Arizona, Chicago, or Dallas and ask yourself if they would be having this argument. He\'s not a stud, but he\'ll have to do for now.

And hey, who\'s to say that he wouldn\'t improve under adequate leadership, or behind a more solid OL, or with a bit more talent at TE and WR (not talking about you, Joe). I don\'t really know what would fix his attitude, other than maybe some improvements around him. It\'d probably help if the defense gave him a little more support, as anyone knows it\'s terribly difficult to play from behind all the time. A steady, disciplined QB coach might help as well.

Fix the defense, fix the OL, fix the WR & TE corps, fix the coaching staff, fix the front office, then let\'s see what AB can do.

But ... is he really worth all the trouble...?

BrooksMustGo · 12-01-2004, 09:11 AM

Fix the defense, fix the OL, fix the WR & TE corps, fix the coaching staff, fix the front office, then let\'s see what AB can do.

But ... is he really worth all the trouble...?

That\'s really the crux of the entire discussion on Brooks. The hard part is that we have to consider not just whether Brooks himself is worth the effort, but whether or not his cap number now becomes prohibitive. We\'re almost out of a discussion of AB on his relative merits, interesting huh? We aren\'t discussing any more that Brooks has trouble making all the throws, reading defenses, making good decisions and his leadership aptitudes. It\'s really come down to whether he\'s worth all that he\'s costing us. There also seems to be the recognition that Brooks is not the kind of player who can carry a team on his own, but needs a strong supporting cast around him. So the question becomes: Can we afford to pay AB like we are AND go out and sign the strong supporting cast he needs?

For example, can we re-sign Deuce for the long term deal, re-sign Horn, Pathon or a free agent WR, sign a free agent LB, sign a run stopping DT, sign a safety, sign between 1-3 players for the o-line AND let Brooks keep earning his big cap killing number? It really looks like the money is about to run out at this point. And given his comments over the past 2 years, I don\'t see AB agreeing to restructure to give us cap relief.

My gut feeling is that this is a stat padding year for him so that he can force us to release him.

WhoDat · 12-01-2004, 12:24 PM

WhoDat, you\'ve caused me to change my mind completely.

Yeah, I do that a lot. You heard it here first folks - JKool thinks AB sucks more than any other player on the team! LOL

We\'re almost out of a discussion of AB on his relative merits, interesting huh? We aren\'t discussing any more that Brooks has trouble making all the throws, reading defenses, making good decisions and his leadership aptitudes. It\'s really come down to whether he\'s worth all that he\'s costing us.

BMG - I know that you recognize this argument - it\'s not new. Things have simply come full circle - AB was never worth what he was being paid. That the coaching staff failed to adequately address defensive needs does not mean AB is worth his salt.

I also find this, fix everything else and then see AB can do argument unconvincing. I mean, take Pittsburgh for example - would AB be delivering up there like Roethlisberger has? I don\'t think AB would be playing substantially better, and Roeth is a rookie. Or take Philly. Would AB be outperforming McNabb? Doubt it. Then look at other teams similarly situated. Indy is loaded with offensive talent and terrible on defense - AB and Peyton aren\'t even in the same ballpark. I guess closer comparisons might be Bulger in St Louis or Green in KC. So AB is the equivalent of Bulger or Trent Green? That\'s not exactly exciting.

There\'s no question that the O-line is hurting AB this year, but what about last year when it was one of the tops in the league? The year before that? Bottom line is that AB has had a Pro Bowl WR (hopefully) 4 of 5 years in NO. He\'s had a top 5 RB every year he\'s been here. He\'s twice had 2 1000 yard WRs in one season, and the team added talent at WR and TE over and over. He had two great T for 3 years. The o-line is off this year but has traditionally been at very least average. How much longer can you continue to make excuses for this guy? It\'s just like the people who want to blame the players, injuries, a bad training facility, heat, luck, and anything else they can think of for the Saints woes rather than blame Haslett. Look guys, the Saints aren\'t winners with AB. You can compare his boneheaded plays to Favre\'s all you want, but there\'s one key difference. Favre\'s team just keeps winning. They keep overachieving. Are the Saints problems all AB\'s fault? Of course not, but he\'s part of it, and if you want to clean house, clean it.

JKool · 12-01-2004, 12:52 PM

First, everyone needs and \"eye owning\", so

Second, this idea of cleaing house may sound all well and good, but I don\'t think that is what we need. We need a better defense and a better o-line.

BMG is right that Brooks\' value should be considered relative to his pay.

Brooks is a middle of the pack QB. If we can get someone better, or someone as good who is cheaper, or someone who is almost as good but not as annoying, then I say ok.

Other than Brees (and I\'m skeptical on this one), I haven\'t heard all that many suggestions that should even tempt a sane GM.

Thus, as of now, I\'m still in favor of keeping AB, even if he never gets any better (and he has in some areas - e.g. fewer fumbles).

PS - All those people who\'ve said that AB will find a NEW way to screw up no matter what problem he fixes, what is the new thing this year? He\'s fixed the fumbling problem, he\'s not exactly out of control in the interception category, etc. What is it that he\'s found?

JKool · 12-01-2004, 12:54 PM

Oh yeah, before anyone gets all snippy. We need a new coaching staff and front office staff (almost to the last one).

11-29-2004, 09:26 PM	#131
TheJudge 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 100	Brooks rumor is that mat lienert fomr USC may come out early.....unless of course the saints show intrest......and maybe aaron rogers out of CAL... OR we could go after randall out of LSU, i hear he is sweet! [Edited on 30/11/2004 by TheJudge]
TheJudge 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 100

11-30-2004, 09:01 AM	#132
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Brooks Where is Whodat? What? You need more from me? Didn\'t I already say that AB is THE problem for the Saints? Get rid of him and this team goes 14-2... that\'s what I said, right? LOL The argument for pro-Brooksians these days seems to be (a) he isn\'t the biggest problem, so why are we even talking about him, (b) if the defense didn\'t suck his bone-headed backwards passes wouldn\'t matter so much, and/or (c) there\'s no other good QBs out there so let\'s stick with him. All of those statements may be true, but they sure don\'t paint a pretty picture of AB. Basically, you\'re all saying, yeah, AB sucks, but the defense and available backups suck more. So what, he still sucks and is therefore a problem worth addressing, no? Actually I don\'t think that he sucks. I think that the situation that he\'s currently in sucks. But almost universally everyone here thinks we need to get rid of him instead of trying to correct the situation around him. The Saints are as predictable as water flowing downhill. In the first quarter McCarthy tries to establish the run. It rarely works. The defense gives up between 10 and 14 points in the 1st quarter while the offense has 3 three and outs because of predictable play calling mixed in with the inevitable false starts and holding penalties. All of a sudden the team is down 14-0. Then the offense opens up. AB starts slinging the ball all over the field. The team gets back into the game somewhat. But in the end the defense has already leaked the requisite 20 points to the opposition. 11 games, at least 20 points a game. It\'s a sad predictable situation that opposing teams can count on. Personally I think McCarthy and Haslett are insane: They keep doing the same thing but expecting a different result. And AB gets the blame for all of this. Somehow everyone is convinced that if you get another QB in there, it\'ll all be different somehow. Everyone seems to be asking why AB cannot consistently convert a 3rd and 12. I\'m asking why is the team in a 3rd in 12 to begin with? We\'re sitting here talking about AB. But why is no one asking about Stallworth essentially losing the game by not converting that last 3rd down before the 2 minute warning in the Falcons game? Or why the more prolific playmaker on Falcons is running around uncovered at the end of the game? Plus going over the numbers again Brooks numbers seem to be cap friendly as compared to other QBs in the top 5-15 in the league. Brooks isn\'t a top 5 QB. However in the right situation and the right guidance he certainly could be a capable top 10 QB coupled with a top 3 RB and a top 5 receiver for the conceivable future. Snippage on the rest. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

11-30-2004, 12:18 PM	#133
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Brooks Gator - \"he doesn\'t look that bad next to a Junky Line, WRs that drop easy passes, and an offensive coordinator I think everyone in the league has figured out how to beat\". Good point. How would he look with a solid O-line, DEPENDABLE TE\'s and more than one good WR? Is it just me or does it seem our opponents know exactly what play we\'re gonna run before we even snap the ball? Just think AB is a piece of the puzzle that is not so easy to replace as an OL or LB or DL or WR. IMO, I\'d solidify the Defense and patch up the offense, while drafting a QB and let him become groomed under AB. After all, Drew Brees was a big bust once before the team around him got better. Same thing with Elway. And by no means am I saying AB is like an Elway or Brees. Just saying the supporting cast make a HUGE difference and right now the Saints supporting cast around AB is horrible. You\'re right, on a list of things wrong with this team, AB isn\'t exactly at the top of the list. But I think a change of identity would help. I think this team has an attitude/confidence problem. Put AB on a team thats both confident and cocky and he\'ll probably make us regret running him off. It would be par for the course. Sometimes I can\'t shake duck-hooking my Big Bertha, and even though I know the Driver isn\'t the problem, sometimes changing to my Titleist helps.

11-30-2004, 02:10 PM	#134
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Brooks Anybody think we can get this to 6 pages? LOL JKool, I just thought I\'d get my shots in on WhoDat. I\'m frankly tired of him coming in here and thinking he can get by on his good looks alone. BMG - I missed this last time. You just moved to the top of my list. LOL As far as Brooks \"sucking\", I have nothing to say until \"sucking\" is operationalized in some way - agree or disagree we will be left with the problem of sorting out what \"sucks\" means. Hey Granola-boy, you suck! LOL Clear? LMAO Does anyone think AB will get any better? Would a new Coach & staff make the difference? Can he be coached up? Could AB be coached better than he is being coached now? I\'m sure of it. Would it make a differnce? Nope. His scouting report was right on. Has no touch, isn\'t a student of the game, is too dumb. AB has made the same type of mistakes over and over and over again for 5 years as a starter. If was going to learn, he would have already. No, he lacks the smarts and intangibles. He will forever be Jeff Blake, Jeff George, etc. You\'re right, on a list of things wrong with this team, AB isn\'t exactly at the top of the list. But I think a change of identity would help. Exactly.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

11-30-2004, 08:46 PM	#135
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Brooks SFIAH, we\'re still on the same page. Keep up the good work. WhoDat, you\'ve caused me to change my mind completely. If Brooks sucks means what you suggest, then he must be totally awesome! Man, I can\'t believe anyone would suggest trading a guy who is so good at everything! Don\'t make me beat you with my eyes again... :hallucine: [Edited on 1/12/2004 by JKool]

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12-01-2004, 07:03 AM	#136
mutineer10 Site Donor Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 1,739	Brooks Anybody think we can get this to 6 pages? LOL What\'s truly amazing is that the post has run this long when so many of us seem to be (more or less) in agreement. Most of us seem to think that, while he regularly embarrasses and confuses us, Brooks is a serviceable enough QB. We certainly don\'t have anyone better on the roster, and we\'re paying him too much to have much hope of getting a fair deal out of him (and we\'d still need a QB if we did). AB has shown much ineptitude sprinkled with flashes of greatness, and while that\'s not necessarily encouraging, it\'s better than alot of teams can boast. Look at Arizona, Chicago, or Dallas and ask yourself if they would be having this argument. He\'s not a stud, but he\'ll have to do for now. And hey, who\'s to say that he wouldn\'t improve under adequate leadership, or behind a more solid OL, or with a bit more talent at TE and WR (not talking about you, Joe). I don\'t really know what would fix his attitude, other than maybe some improvements around him. It\'d probably help if the defense gave him a little more support, as anyone knows it\'s terribly difficult to play from behind all the time. A steady, disciplined QB coach might help as well. Fix the defense, fix the OL, fix the WR & TE corps, fix the coaching staff, fix the front office, then let\'s see what AB can do. But ... is he really worth all the trouble...?

12-01-2004, 09:11 AM	#137
BrooksMustGo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,762	Brooks Fix the defense, fix the OL, fix the WR & TE corps, fix the coaching staff, fix the front office, then let\'s see what AB can do. But ... is he really worth all the trouble...? That\'s really the crux of the entire discussion on Brooks. The hard part is that we have to consider not just whether Brooks himself is worth the effort, but whether or not his cap number now becomes prohibitive. We\'re almost out of a discussion of AB on his relative merits, interesting huh? We aren\'t discussing any more that Brooks has trouble making all the throws, reading defenses, making good decisions and his leadership aptitudes. It\'s really come down to whether he\'s worth all that he\'s costing us. There also seems to be the recognition that Brooks is not the kind of player who can carry a team on his own, but needs a strong supporting cast around him. So the question becomes: Can we afford to pay AB like we are AND go out and sign the strong supporting cast he needs? For example, can we re-sign Deuce for the long term deal, re-sign Horn, Pathon or a free agent WR, sign a free agent LB, sign a run stopping DT, sign a safety, sign between 1-3 players for the o-line AND let Brooks keep earning his big cap killing number? It really looks like the money is about to run out at this point. And given his comments over the past 2 years, I don\'t see AB agreeing to restructure to give us cap relief. My gut feeling is that this is a stat padding year for him so that he can force us to release him.
	http://www.blackandgold.net/site/signature/buddysig.jpg

12-01-2004, 12:24 PM	#138
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Brooks WhoDat, you\'ve caused me to change my mind completely. Yeah, I do that a lot. You heard it here first folks - JKool thinks AB sucks more than any other player on the team! LOL We\'re almost out of a discussion of AB on his relative merits, interesting huh? We aren\'t discussing any more that Brooks has trouble making all the throws, reading defenses, making good decisions and his leadership aptitudes. It\'s really come down to whether he\'s worth all that he\'s costing us. BMG - I know that you recognize this argument - it\'s not new. Things have simply come full circle - AB was never worth what he was being paid. That the coaching staff failed to adequately address defensive needs does not mean AB is worth his salt. I also find this, fix everything else and then see AB can do argument unconvincing. I mean, take Pittsburgh for example - would AB be delivering up there like Roethlisberger has? I don\'t think AB would be playing substantially better, and Roeth is a rookie. Or take Philly. Would AB be outperforming McNabb? Doubt it. Then look at other teams similarly situated. Indy is loaded with offensive talent and terrible on defense - AB and Peyton aren\'t even in the same ballpark. I guess closer comparisons might be Bulger in St Louis or Green in KC. So AB is the equivalent of Bulger or Trent Green? That\'s not exactly exciting. There\'s no question that the O-line is hurting AB this year, but what about last year when it was one of the tops in the league? The year before that? Bottom line is that AB has had a Pro Bowl WR (hopefully) 4 of 5 years in NO. He\'s had a top 5 RB every year he\'s been here. He\'s twice had 2 1000 yard WRs in one season, and the team added talent at WR and TE over and over. He had two great T for 3 years. The o-line is off this year but has traditionally been at very least average. How much longer can you continue to make excuses for this guy? It\'s just like the people who want to blame the players, injuries, a bad training facility, heat, luck, and anything else they can think of for the Saints woes rather than blame Haslett. Look guys, the Saints aren\'t winners with AB. You can compare his boneheaded plays to Favre\'s all you want, but there\'s one key difference. Favre\'s team just keeps winning. They keep overachieving. Are the Saints problems all AB\'s fault? Of course not, but he\'s part of it, and if you want to clean house, clean it.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

12-01-2004, 12:52 PM	#139
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Brooks First, everyone needs and \"eye owning\", so Second, this idea of cleaing house may sound all well and good, but I don\'t think that is what we need. We need a better defense and a better o-line. BMG is right that Brooks\' value should be considered relative to his pay. Brooks is a middle of the pack QB. If we can get someone better, or someone as good who is cheaper, or someone who is almost as good but not as annoying, then I say ok. Other than Brees (and I\'m skeptical on this one), I haven\'t heard all that many suggestions that should even tempt a sane GM. Thus, as of now, I\'m still in favor of keeping AB, even if he never gets any better (and he has in some areas - e.g. fewer fumbles). PS - All those people who\'ve said that AB will find a NEW way to screw up no matter what problem he fixes, what is the new thing this year? He\'s fixed the fumbling problem, he\'s not exactly out of control in the interception category, etc. What is it that he\'s found?
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

12-01-2004, 12:54 PM	#140
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Brooks Oh yeah, before anyone gets all snippy. We need a new coaching staff and front office staff (almost to the last one).